Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?

[George Rogato]

I remember coming across this gas generator last year:

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=539

There is cheaper ones but they also include the automatic transfer 
switch which is usually a big expense it self.




Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net wrote:
> The LP or Natural Gas is the way to go.  Normally, 100 lbs tanks are simple
> and cheap, here around 60 bucks delivered.  It will run a generate for a
> good number of hours.  A customer put in a 15k auto gen found it on e-bay
> delivered for 2500 bucks!  Ran his NOC twice for 5-6 days each.  Has a 250
> tank though for his home heat and range, but other than that, they came out,
> hooked up and filled it without him getting out in the cold.  Ran like a
> champ.  Keep in mind for this kind of money, it should have the auto start
> and transfer switch, also, something to look for in a larger unit is a auto
> test.  This unit once a week starts and runs for 5 min.
> 
>  
> 
> Something you can do with the Nat gas route, is if you have it near your
> tower, just get them to hook you up.  Then, no gas to worry about, let'er
> run!
> 
>  
> 
> Dennis Burgess
> 
> Link Technologies, Inc.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Eric Rogers
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 7:11 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?
> 
>  
> 
> We had a similar experience.  We ran our site for 5 months on a combination
> of batteries and generators.  I second the Honda EU and/or Yamaha.  They are
> inverter based and do make a better sine wave, or cleaner power.
> 
>  
> 
> I also noticed we could run our site 8 hrs on a tank of 2.5 gallons on the
> Honda 2000 EU, or we could run 8 hrs on a 5 gallon tank with a 5000 watt
> larger generator.
> 
>  
> 
> You definately get what you pay for!!!   Get at least one Honda 2k (or
> Yamaha) and then buy a couple backups of the cheap $150-200 generators.
> Maintain all of them and you should do ok.
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Rogers
> 
> Precision Data Solutions, LLC
> 
> (317) 831-3000 x200
> 
>  
> 
>   _  
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Tim Kerns
> Sent: Mon 2/18/2008 6:04 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?
> 
> John,
> We had to run for over a month on generator at the end of last year. (long
> story but the place where we contract for one of our towers defaulted on
> their loan and the bank took over it took over a month and a break in to
> get the power restored).
> 
> My point was we used one of the 1000 watt generators from harbor freight,
> the one with the Subaru engine. We ran this round the clock, the tank on
> them will run about 5-6 hours depending on load. We took a 5 gallon can,
> made a spout and connected this to the engine input, bypassing the tank.
> This gave us plenty of run time, but still needed to refill daily. The first
> generator lasted about 2 weeks before it was stolen (remember the break-in
> above), we replaced with the same model and ran it for another 2 weeks.
> 
> I was really surprised at it's ability to last that long and expected it to
> die after a few days. We found it did use oil and the automatic "low oil"
> sensor did shut us down once. After that we added oil every 2-3 days.
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "John Valenti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:40 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?
> 
> 
>> I was looking around for a method to keep at least my backbone
>> running during an extended power outage. (we have had ice storms take
>> out power for 4 - 7 days).
>>
>> It seemed like the small generators might be a solution, the Honda/
>> etc name brand ones seem to be ~$600 for 1000 watts. And I found a
>> company that sells Yamaha 1000W generators converted to dual fuel (NG
>> or propane) for about $1000.  They also sell a 2400 watt generator
>> that is triple fuel, gas/NG/propane that is tempting, even at $1600.
>>
>> But then I ran across some imported 2 stroke, 1000 watt generators.
>> Harbor Freight has them in their catalog for about $150. I found a
>> similar one in a local store that is on sale for $99.  The box says
>> it will run for 8 hours on tank of gas (at half load, 1.25 gallons).
>>
>> These imported ones just seem like they are too cheap.  And I'm not
>> too fond of 2 stokes. That Yamaha dealer warns that the cheap
>> generators are only designed to last 150 hours - but maybe 150 hours
>> for $100 isn't too bad a deal.
>>
>> Just wondering if anyone has thoughts or experiences on this issue.
>> thanks
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
> 
> 
>> WISPA Wireless List: wirel

Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?

[Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net]

The LP or Natural Gas is the way to go.  Normally, 100 lbs tanks are simple
and cheap, here around 60 bucks delivered.  It will run a generate for a
good number of hours.  A customer put in a 15k auto gen found it on e-bay
delivered for 2500 bucks!  Ran his NOC twice for 5-6 days each.  Has a 250
tank though for his home heat and range, but other than that, they came out,
hooked up and filled it without him getting out in the cold.  Ran like a
champ.  Keep in mind for this kind of money, it should have the auto start
and transfer switch, also, something to look for in a larger unit is a auto
test.  This unit once a week starts and runs for 5 min.

 

Something you can do with the Nat gas route, is if you have it near your
tower, just get them to hook you up.  Then, no gas to worry about, let'er
run!

 

Dennis Burgess

Link Technologies, Inc.

 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Rogers
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 7:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?

 

We had a similar experience.  We ran our site for 5 months on a combination
of batteries and generators.  I second the Honda EU and/or Yamaha.  They are
inverter based and do make a better sine wave, or cleaner power.

 

I also noticed we could run our site 8 hrs on a tank of 2.5 gallons on the
Honda 2000 EU, or we could run 8 hrs on a 5 gallon tank with a 5000 watt
larger generator.

 

You definately get what you pay for!!!   Get at least one Honda 2k (or
Yamaha) and then buy a couple backups of the cheap $150-200 generators.
Maintain all of them and you should do ok.

 

Thanks,

 

Eric Rogers

Precision Data Solutions, LLC

(317) 831-3000 x200

 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Tim Kerns
Sent: Mon 2/18/2008 6:04 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?

John,
We had to run for over a month on generator at the end of last year. (long
story but the place where we contract for one of our towers defaulted on
their loan and the bank took over it took over a month and a break in to
get the power restored).

My point was we used one of the 1000 watt generators from harbor freight,
the one with the Subaru engine. We ran this round the clock, the tank on
them will run about 5-6 hours depending on load. We took a 5 gallon can,
made a spout and connected this to the engine input, bypassing the tank.
This gave us plenty of run time, but still needed to refill daily. The first
generator lasted about 2 weeks before it was stolen (remember the break-in
above), we replaced with the same model and ran it for another 2 weeks.

I was really surprised at it's ability to last that long and expected it to
die after a few days. We found it did use oil and the automatic "low oil"
sensor did shut us down once. After that we added oil every 2-3 days.


- Original Message -
From: "John Valenti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:40 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?


>I was looking around for a method to keep at least my backbone
> running during an extended power outage. (we have had ice storms take
> out power for 4 - 7 days).
>
> It seemed like the small generators might be a solution, the Honda/
> etc name brand ones seem to be ~$600 for 1000 watts. And I found a
> company that sells Yamaha 1000W generators converted to dual fuel (NG
> or propane) for about $1000.  They also sell a 2400 watt generator
> that is triple fuel, gas/NG/propane that is tempting, even at $1600.
>
> But then I ran across some imported 2 stroke, 1000 watt generators.
> Harbor Freight has them in their catalog for about $150. I found a
> similar one in a local store that is on sale for $99.  The box says
> it will run for 8 hours on tank of gas (at half load, 1.25 gallons).
>
> These imported ones just seem like they are too cheap.  And I'm not
> too fond of 2 stokes. That Yamaha dealer warns that the cheap
> generators are only designed to last 150 hours - but maybe 150 hours
> for $100 isn't too bad a deal.
>
> Just wondering if anyone has thoughts or experiences on this issue.
> thanks
>
>
>


> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>


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Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?

[Eric Rogers]

We had a similar experience.  We ran our site for 5 months on a combination of 
batteries and generators.  I second the Honda EU and/or Yamaha.  They are 
inverter based and do make a better sine wave, or cleaner power.
 
I also noticed we could run our site 8 hrs on a tank of 2.5 gallons on the 
Honda 2000 EU, or we could run 8 hrs on a 5 gallon tank with a 5000 watt larger 
generator.
 
You definately get what you pay for!!!   Get at least one Honda 2k (or Yamaha) 
and then buy a couple backups of the cheap $150-200 generators.  Maintain all 
of them and you should do ok.
 
Thanks,
 
Eric Rogers
Precision Data Solutions, LLC
(317) 831-3000 x200



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Tim Kerns
Sent: Mon 2/18/2008 6:04 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?



John,
We had to run for over a month on generator at the end of last year. (long
story but the place where we contract for one of our towers defaulted on
their loan and the bank took over it took over a month and a break in to
get the power restored).

My point was we used one of the 1000 watt generators from harbor freight,
the one with the Subaru engine. We ran this round the clock, the tank on
them will run about 5-6 hours depending on load. We took a 5 gallon can,
made a spout and connected this to the engine input, bypassing the tank.
This gave us plenty of run time, but still needed to refill daily. The first
generator lasted about 2 weeks before it was stolen (remember the break-in
above), we replaced with the same model and ran it for another 2 weeks.

I was really surprised at it's ability to last that long and expected it to
die after a few days. We found it did use oil and the automatic "low oil"
sensor did shut us down once. After that we added oil every 2-3 days.


- Original Message -
From: "John Valenti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:40 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?


>I was looking around for a method to keep at least my backbone
> running during an extended power outage. (we have had ice storms take
> out power for 4 - 7 days).
>
> It seemed like the small generators might be a solution, the Honda/
> etc name brand ones seem to be ~$600 for 1000 watts. And I found a
> company that sells Yamaha 1000W generators converted to dual fuel (NG
> or propane) for about $1000.  They also sell a 2400 watt generator
> that is triple fuel, gas/NG/propane that is tempting, even at $1600.
>
> But then I ran across some imported 2 stroke, 1000 watt generators.
> Harbor Freight has them in their catalog for about $150. I found a
> similar one in a local store that is on sale for $99.  The box says
> it will run for 8 hours on tank of gas (at half load, 1.25 gallons).
>
> These imported ones just seem like they are too cheap.  And I'm not
> too fond of 2 stokes. That Yamaha dealer warns that the cheap
> generators are only designed to last 150 hours - but maybe 150 hours
> for $100 isn't too bad a deal.
>
> Just wondering if anyone has thoughts or experiences on this issue.
> thanks
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>




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Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

I have a pull start Generac unit.  It's a 5kw (6500 surge).  I bought it 
from a guy that bought it for the y2k thing then never used it.  I've only 
had the system on it once so far and it worked fine.

I'll not buy another pull start 10 horse motor though.  It's hard to start 
after sitting for a while (use Staybil in it) and ether is almost a must. 
It's also very noisy, even after I built a new muffler for it.

For my next one I'm gonna look for an RV unit and put it on a trailer. 
That'll be quiet, can hold lots of gas and will be one person mobile.

I agree with others that looking for one with an inverter is probably a good 
idea.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "John Valenti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:40 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?


>I was looking around for a method to keep at least my backbone
> running during an extended power outage. (we have had ice storms take
> out power for 4 - 7 days).
>
> It seemed like the small generators might be a solution, the Honda/
> etc name brand ones seem to be ~$600 for 1000 watts. And I found a
> company that sells Yamaha 1000W generators converted to dual fuel (NG
> or propane) for about $1000.  They also sell a 2400 watt generator
> that is triple fuel, gas/NG/propane that is tempting, even at $1600.
>
> But then I ran across some imported 2 stroke, 1000 watt generators.
> Harbor Freight has them in their catalog for about $150. I found a
> similar one in a local store that is on sale for $99.  The box says
> it will run for 8 hours on tank of gas (at half load, 1.25 gallons).
>
> These imported ones just seem like they are too cheap.  And I'm not
> too fond of 2 stokes. That Yamaha dealer warns that the cheap
> generators are only designed to last 150 hours - but maybe 150 hours
> for $100 isn't too bad a deal.
>
> Just wondering if anyone has thoughts or experiences on this issue.
> thanks
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 




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Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?

[D. Ryan Spott]

You probably want to finance something like the Yamaha or Honda 1000  
to 3000 series "i" generators. They run on an inverter so they can  
purr at variable RPMS (saving you gas) while providing enough power to  
your backhauls.

The 1000 series fit in the trunk of your car, are darn near silent and  
weigh less than nothing. In the fire department where I volunteer we  
just haul the generators around instead of cords for powering lights  
when we are doing after-fire overhaul.

The 3000 series Yamahas have a remote start option that runs on a  
remote control unit. It is intended for waking up in your cabin and  
starting the genset without going outside. This remote start thing is  
just begging to be hooked up to something that would allow you to  
start it with a charge controller or something else.

Good luck!

ryan

On Feb 18, 2008, at 2:40 PM, John Valenti wrote:

> I was looking around for a method to keep at least my backbone
> running during an extended power outage. (we have had ice storms take
> out power for 4 - 7 days).
>
> It seemed like the small generators might be a solution, the Honda/
> etc name brand ones seem to be ~$600 for 1000 watts. And I found a
> company that sells Yamaha 1000W generators converted to dual fuel (NG
> or propane) for about $1000.  They also sell a 2400 watt generator
> that is triple fuel, gas/NG/propane that is tempting, even at $1600.
>
> But then I ran across some imported 2 stroke, 1000 watt generators.
> Harbor Freight has them in their catalog for about $150. I found a
> similar one in a local store that is on sale for $99.  The box says
> it will run for 8 hours on tank of gas (at half load, 1.25 gallons).
>
> These imported ones just seem like they are too cheap.  And I'm not
> too fond of 2 stokes. That Yamaha dealer warns that the cheap
> generators are only designed to last 150 hours - but maybe 150 hours
> for $100 isn't too bad a deal.
>
> Just wondering if anyone has thoughts or experiences on this issue.
> thanks
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




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Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?

[Chuck McCown - 2]

I have used 10 cents per watt as a good value for manual start, small 
generator.
15 cents per watt for larger units with electric start. (10 kW and larger)
20 cents per watt for larger units with automatic start (new without 
transfer switch).
25 cents to 30 cents per watt for larger units with automatic start and 
transfer switch, crankcase heaters, trickle chargers etc etc.

I formulated this rule of thumb pricing about 10 years ago, so it may be off 
a little.  I use a similar rule of thumb for storage batteries. 10-20 cents 
per watt hour.

- Original Message - 
From: "Tim Kerns" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?


> John,
> We had to run for over a month on generator at the end of last year. (long
> story but the place where we contract for one of our towers defaulted on
> their loan and the bank took over it took over a month and a break in 
> to
> get the power restored).
>
> My point was we used one of the 1000 watt generators from harbor freight,
> the one with the Subaru engine. We ran this round the clock, the tank on
> them will run about 5-6 hours depending on load. We took a 5 gallon can,
> made a spout and connected this to the engine input, bypassing the tank.
> This gave us plenty of run time, but still needed to refill daily. The 
> first
> generator lasted about 2 weeks before it was stolen (remember the break-in
> above), we replaced with the same model and ran it for another 2 weeks.
>
> I was really surprised at it's ability to last that long and expected it 
> to
> die after a few days. We found it did use oil and the automatic "low oil"
> sensor did shut us down once. After that we added oil every 2-3 days.
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "John Valenti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:40 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?
>
>
>>I was looking around for a method to keep at least my backbone
>> running during an extended power outage. (we have had ice storms take
>> out power for 4 - 7 days).
>>
>> It seemed like the small generators might be a solution, the Honda/
>> etc name brand ones seem to be ~$600 for 1000 watts. And I found a
>> company that sells Yamaha 1000W generators converted to dual fuel (NG
>> or propane) for about $1000.  They also sell a 2400 watt generator
>> that is triple fuel, gas/NG/propane that is tempting, even at $1600.
>>
>> But then I ran across some imported 2 stroke, 1000 watt generators.
>> Harbor Freight has them in their catalog for about $150. I found a
>> similar one in a local store that is on sale for $99.  The box says
>> it will run for 8 hours on tank of gas (at half load, 1.25 gallons).
>>
>> These imported ones just seem like they are too cheap.  And I'm not
>> too fond of 2 stokes. That Yamaha dealer warns that the cheap
>> generators are only designed to last 150 hours - but maybe 150 hours
>> for $100 isn't too bad a deal.
>>
>> Just wondering if anyone has thoughts or experiences on this issue.
>> thanks
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?

[shoemakerp]

If you are powering anything but a rectifier to charge batteries, look for a 
generator with inverter technology such as the honda EU series. Most portable 
generators don't have the voltage or frequency regulation stability to keep 
UPSes or sensitive electronics running. Inverter generators produce their AC 
waveform with power electronics that keep it at a constant voltage and 
frequency even if the engine runs like crap. I bought a kipor inverter 
generator (chinese honda clone) that seems to be a pretty good unit. It kept 
the NOC essentials running during a simultaneous utility power and standby 
generator failure a few weeks ago. Also, you can add external fuel tanks to get 
36 hours of runtime.

Patrick
-Original Message-
From: John Valenti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:40:41 
To:WISPA General List 
Subject: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?


I was looking around for a method to keep at least my backbone  
running during an extended power outage. (we have had ice storms take  
out power for 4 - 7 days).

It seemed like the small generators might be a solution, the Honda/ 
etc name brand ones seem to be ~$600 for 1000 watts. And I found a  
company that sells Yamaha 1000W generators converted to dual fuel (NG  
or propane) for about $1000.  They also sell a 2400 watt generator  
that is triple fuel, gas/NG/propane that is tempting, even at $1600.

But then I ran across some imported 2 stroke, 1000 watt generators.  
Harbor Freight has them in their catalog for about $150. I found a  
similar one in a local store that is on sale for $99.  The box says  
it will run for 8 hours on tank of gas (at half load, 1.25 gallons).

These imported ones just seem like they are too cheap.  And I'm not  
too fond of 2 stokes. That Yamaha dealer warns that the cheap  
generators are only designed to last 150 hours - but maybe 150 hours  
for $100 isn't too bad a deal.

Just wondering if anyone has thoughts or experiences on this issue.
thanks



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Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?

[Tim Kerns]

John,
We had to run for over a month on generator at the end of last year. (long 
story but the place where we contract for one of our towers defaulted on 
their loan and the bank took over it took over a month and a break in to 
get the power restored).

My point was we used one of the 1000 watt generators from harbor freight, 
the one with the Subaru engine. We ran this round the clock, the tank on 
them will run about 5-6 hours depending on load. We took a 5 gallon can, 
made a spout and connected this to the engine input, bypassing the tank. 
This gave us plenty of run time, but still needed to refill daily. The first 
generator lasted about 2 weeks before it was stolen (remember the break-in 
above), we replaced with the same model and ran it for another 2 weeks.

I was really surprised at it's ability to last that long and expected it to 
die after a few days. We found it did use oil and the automatic "low oil" 
sensor did shut us down once. After that we added oil every 2-3 days.


- Original Message - 
From: "John Valenti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:40 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?


>I was looking around for a method to keep at least my backbone
> running during an extended power outage. (we have had ice storms take
> out power for 4 - 7 days).
>
> It seemed like the small generators might be a solution, the Honda/
> etc name brand ones seem to be ~$600 for 1000 watts. And I found a
> company that sells Yamaha 1000W generators converted to dual fuel (NG
> or propane) for about $1000.  They also sell a 2400 watt generator
> that is triple fuel, gas/NG/propane that is tempting, even at $1600.
>
> But then I ran across some imported 2 stroke, 1000 watt generators.
> Harbor Freight has them in their catalog for about $150. I found a
> similar one in a local store that is on sale for $99.  The box says
> it will run for 8 hours on tank of gas (at half load, 1.25 gallons).
>
> These imported ones just seem like they are too cheap.  And I'm not
> too fond of 2 stokes. That Yamaha dealer warns that the cheap
> generators are only designed to last 150 hours - but maybe 150 hours
> for $100 isn't too bad a deal.
>
> Just wondering if anyone has thoughts or experiences on this issue.
> thanks
>
>
> 
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> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?

[Tim Wolfe]

John, We have a unit that I paid about $300 for from Tractor Supply. It 
is made by Champion Tools and has 3500 watts continuous with a 4000 watt 
surge capacity. It has a LOT more than 150 hours on it without a bit of 
problems. They key in my mind and from talking to others is keeping it 
properly maintained. Regular oil changes, running it under load every 
month for maybe 10 minutes or so. I use it for extended power outages 
and my motor home for awhile now without any problems. Sounds like the 
Yamaha dealer is trying to make a sale?

John Valenti wrote:
> I was looking around for a method to keep at least my backbone  
> running during an extended power outage. (we have had ice storms take  
> out power for 4 - 7 days).
>
> It seemed like the small generators might be a solution, the Honda/ 
> etc name brand ones seem to be ~$600 for 1000 watts. And I found a  
> company that sells Yamaha 1000W generators converted to dual fuel (NG  
> or propane) for about $1000.  They also sell a 2400 watt generator  
> that is triple fuel, gas/NG/propane that is tempting, even at $1600.
>
> But then I ran across some imported 2 stroke, 1000 watt generators.  
> Harbor Freight has them in their catalog for about $150. I found a  
> similar one in a local store that is on sale for $99.  The box says  
> it will run for 8 hours on tank of gas (at half load, 1.25 gallons).
>
> These imported ones just seem like they are too cheap.  And I'm not  
> too fond of 2 stokes. That Yamaha dealer warns that the cheap  
> generators are only designed to last 150 hours - but maybe 150 hours  
> for $100 isn't too bad a deal.
>
> Just wondering if anyone has thoughts or experiences on this issue.
> thanks
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
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Re: [WISPA] pcb

[George Rogato]

Mike Hammett wrote:
> In the RooTenna or in the DCE?
> 

In their new enclosure.



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[WISPA] Small generators - cheap or inexpensive?

[John Valenti]

I was looking around for a method to keep at least my backbone  
running during an extended power outage. (we have had ice storms take  
out power for 4 - 7 days).

It seemed like the small generators might be a solution, the Honda/ 
etc name brand ones seem to be ~$600 for 1000 watts. And I found a  
company that sells Yamaha 1000W generators converted to dual fuel (NG  
or propane) for about $1000.  They also sell a 2400 watt generator  
that is triple fuel, gas/NG/propane that is tempting, even at $1600.

But then I ran across some imported 2 stroke, 1000 watt generators.  
Harbor Freight has them in their catalog for about $150. I found a  
similar one in a local store that is on sale for $99.  The box says  
it will run for 8 hours on tank of gas (at half load, 1.25 gallons).

These imported ones just seem like they are too cheap.  And I'm not  
too fond of 2 stokes. That Yamaha dealer warns that the cheap  
generators are only designed to last 150 hours - but maybe 150 hours  
for $100 isn't too bad a deal.

Just wondering if anyone has thoughts or experiences on this issue.
thanks



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Re: [WISPA] pcb

[Mike Hammett]

In the RooTenna or in the DCE?


--
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] pcb


> One nice thing about the new 4 ports in the enclosure, they use the
> metal standoffs we are suposed to be using, so it's grounded like you
> said in various spots on the board.
>
>
>
> John Valenti wrote:
>> Tom,
>>
>> One thing I did when I was building StarOS radios was use one
>> mounting screw per board. Partly I was doing that because I thought
>> the board should be grounded to the case, but it also would have
>> helped if the glue failed on the plastic standoffs.
>>
>> Also, I'm not sure what the bad effects would be if the glue failed.
>> The standoffs would prevent the board from shorting out on the
>> bottom, enough other components would prevent it from shorting on the
>> top (probably).  The stiff ethernet cable would sort of keep it in
>> position.  (in a DCE anyway, maybe a Rootenna would provide too much
>> wiggle room)
>>
>> But I didn't build enough of them, or have them in service long
>> enough to draw any conclusions. Or rather, I came to the conclusion
>> that I hated u.FL connectors; and assembled Lucaya M1208 radios were
>> way better!
>>
>>
>> On February 17, at 6:24 PM February 17, Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>
>>> Well, I guess an alternative is that if Plastic cases are used,
>>> there wouldn't be much risk if the standoffs fell off. Next trip
>>> up, just bring new standoffs and restick.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
> -- 
> George Rogato
>
> Welcome to WISPA
>
> www.wispa.org
>
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
>
> 
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> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
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>
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> 




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Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] PCQ Question

[Sam Tetherow]

Well, I feel like an idiot.  The Internal and External interfaces were 
labeled incorrectly (or the cables were plugged in the wrong way, take 
your pick).

I now have it working as expected the setup below does work.  Not sure 
why it was exhibiting the behavior it was, but I didn't spend the time 
investigating once I got it fixed.

Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless



Sam Tetherow wrote:
> I've been trying to help another WISP with a new bandwidth limiter since 
> their ancient YDI box finally died.
>
> The BCU did everything via mac-address so I've set up mangle rules for 
> src-mac-address to mark the connection and then mark all packets in each 
> connection so that they can have rate plans based by mac address.  This 
> part is working great.
>
> However they want to limit all unknown mac addresses to 64k/64k.  I 
> thought the best way to do this would be to set up a mangle rule at the 
> beginning of the vlan chain to mark all packets as unknown.  Then let 
> the src-mac mangle rules remark all known packets to their plans.  Next 
> I would have a queue tree for each vlan interface with the unknown 
> packet mark and limit it to a PCQ queue. 
>
> The problem I'm running into is that all packets are being shaped by the 
> PCQ.  If the PCQ rates are higher than the individual rates then the 
> individual rates apply, but if the PCQ rates are lower then they are 
> restricting things.  Either I'm not following how the PCQ queue should 
> work or I've missed something simple.  Here is the setup:
>
> The MT is bridging several VLANs across 2 ethernet ports and all the 
> traffic is managed on a per vlan basis otherwise the mangle rules bring 
> the router to it's knees.
>
> /ip firewall mangle add chain=forward in-interface=vlan2 action=jump 
> jump-target=vlan2
>
> # Mangle rules for marking traffic
> /ip firewall mangle add chain=vlan2 action=mark-packet 
> new-packet-mark=unknown_user passthrough=yes
> /ip firewall mangle add chain=vlan2 src-mac-address=00:40:96:44:59:6F 
> action=mark-connection new-connection-mark=cid1 passthrough=yes
> /ip firewall mangle add chain=vlan2 connection-mark=cid1 
> action=mark-packet new-packet-mark=cid1 passthrough=no
> ...
>
> # PCQ Queue Types
> /queue type add name=pcq-upload kind=pcq pcq-rate=64000 pcq-limit=50 
> pcq-classifier=dst-address pcq-total-limit=2000
> /queue type add name=pcq-download kind=pcq pcq-rate=64000 pcq-limit=50 
> pcq-classifier=src-address pcq-total-limit=2000
>
> # Default PCQ Queue for unknown MACs
> /queue tree add name=vlan2-default-upload parent=vlan2-External 
> packet-mark=unknown_user queue=pcq-upload
> /queue tree add name=vlan2-default-download parent=vlan2-Internal 
> packet-mark=unknown_user queue-pcq-download
>
> # Queue for CID1
> /queue tree add name=cid1-U parent=vlan2-External packet-mark=cid1 
> max-limit=128000
> /queue tree add name=cid1-D parent=vlan2-Internal packet-mark=cid1 
> max-limit=512000
>
> In the above scenario CID1 will be limited by the PCQ to 64k/64k, but if 
> I up the pcq-rate to be 1M/1M then CID1 will be limited at the correct 
> 512k/128k.  It acts like the PCQ is ignoring the packet-mark and 
> catching all packets.
>
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  I've tried moving the 
> unknown_user managle to the bottom of the mangle chain but that hasn't 
> helped either.
>
>   



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Re: [WISPA] pcb

[George Rogato]

One nice thing about the new 4 ports in the enclosure, they use the 
metal standoffs we are suposed to be using, so it's grounded like you 
said in various spots on the board.



John Valenti wrote:
> Tom,
> 
> One thing I did when I was building StarOS radios was use one  
> mounting screw per board. Partly I was doing that because I thought  
> the board should be grounded to the case, but it also would have  
> helped if the glue failed on the plastic standoffs.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure what the bad effects would be if the glue failed.  
> The standoffs would prevent the board from shorting out on the  
> bottom, enough other components would prevent it from shorting on the  
> top (probably).  The stiff ethernet cable would sort of keep it in  
> position.  (in a DCE anyway, maybe a Rootenna would provide too much  
> wiggle room)
> 
> But I didn't build enough of them, or have them in service long  
> enough to draw any conclusions. Or rather, I came to the conclusion  
> that I hated u.FL connectors; and assembled Lucaya M1208 radios were  
> way better!
> 
> 
> On February 17, at 6:24 PM February 17, Tom DeReggi wrote:
> 
>> Well, I guess an alternative is that if Plastic cases are used,  
>> there wouldn't be much risk if the standoffs fell off. Next trip  
>> up, just bring new standoffs and restick.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
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-- 
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/



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Re: [WISPA] pcb Ask Tony Morella

[George Rogato]

I've used them for a few years now and can't recall seeing any of the 
larger sized bases come unglued from the enclosure.

I use these everywhere, all I use is boards and rootennas.

The ones that have failed are the skinnier small based ones. I've seen 
that when it got too cold inside a nema enclosure the boards fall. This 
has happened multiple times.

To fix that situation, we use caulk. We put a big wad of caulk at the 
base of the mount and stick it to the enclosure. If the enclosure is in 
use, I use strips of duct tape to hold everything in place till the 
caulk dries.

If it's in a unit I'm building on the bench, and I've done this a lot to 
reuse old plastic mounts, is I just lay it down and let it cure, about 
24hours or so.


Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
> Question was.  Do they last?  In the heat, in the cold??
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> We don't use them that much anymore in the new product lines but we do have
>> stock they are .25 each less than 100 and 20 each with 100+.  You can call
>> and talk to one of our sales reps to order just reference part number
>> MF-SLAD250ADH.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Sincerely, Tony Morella
>>
>> Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider
>>
>> Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008
>>
>>   http://www.demarctech.com 
>>
>>  
>>
>> This communication constitutes an electronic communication within the
>> meaning of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 USC 2510, and its
>> disclosure is strictly limited to the recipient intended by the sender of
>> this message. This communication may contain  confidential and privileged
>> material for the sole use of the intended recipient and receipt by anyone
>> other than the intended recipient does not constitute a loss of the
>> confidential or privileged nature of the communication. Any review or
>> distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
>> recipient please contact the sender by return electronic mail and delete all
>> copies of this communication
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher
>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 4:00 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] pcb Ask Tony Morella
>>
>>  
>>
>> It was suppose to say Have you had a problem Tony?
>>
>> Brian Rohrbacher wrote: 
>>
>> Demarctech has used them for a couple years.  Have you had a problem.  I
>> have not had a problem with the ones in the Demarctech products.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> Tom DeReggi wrote: 
>>
>> Well, I'd rather ask... How have the adhesive backed mounts been working 
>> out?
>>  
>> I'm afraid to use them. We use the little golden metal standoffs, bolt them 
>> in, and water proof.
>> Afraid the board will come loose and short out, after significant heat or 
>> cold or moisture.
>> Accident waiting to happen, a year down the road.
>>  
>> How long are they holding up?
>>  
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>  
>>  
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Brian Rohrbacher"  
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List"   
>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:29 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] pcb
>>  
>>  
>>   
>>
>> Let me know when you order.  They have a min order number.  I got some a
>> couple yrs ago and sold a bunch.  I think you had to order 500-1000.
>> Now I am a little low.  I might take some off your hands if you don't
>> want that many.
>>  
>> Brian
>>  
>> Travis Johnson wrote:
>> 
>>
>> Hi,
>>  
>> Who sells the plastic 3M PCB with adhesive backing? Like for mounting
>> routerboards inside cases?
>>  
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>  
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>>  
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>  
>>  
>>   
>>
>> 
>> 
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>> 
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>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 
>> 
>>
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
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Re: [WISPA] pcb Ask Tony Morella

[Brian Rohrbacher]

Question was.  Do they last?  In the heat, in the cold??

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> We don't use them that much anymore in the new product lines but we do have
> stock they are .25 each less than 100 and 20 each with 100+.  You can call
> and talk to one of our sales reps to order just reference part number
> MF-SLAD250ADH.
>
>  
>
> Sincerely, Tony Morella
>
> Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider
>
> Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008
>
>   http://www.demarctech.com 
>
>  
>
> This communication constitutes an electronic communication within the
> meaning of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 USC 2510, and its
> disclosure is strictly limited to the recipient intended by the sender of
> this message. This communication may contain  confidential and privileged
> material for the sole use of the intended recipient and receipt by anyone
> other than the intended recipient does not constitute a loss of the
> confidential or privileged nature of the communication. Any review or
> distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient please contact the sender by return electronic mail and delete all
> copies of this communication
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 4:00 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] pcb Ask Tony Morella
>
>  
>
> It was suppose to say Have you had a problem Tony?
>
> Brian Rohrbacher wrote: 
>
> Demarctech has used them for a couple years.  Have you had a problem.  I
> have not had a problem with the ones in the Demarctech products.
>
> Brian
>
> Tom DeReggi wrote: 
>
> Well, I'd rather ask... How have the adhesive backed mounts been working 
> out?
>  
> I'm afraid to use them. We use the little golden metal standoffs, bolt them 
> in, and water proof.
> Afraid the board will come loose and short out, after significant heat or 
> cold or moisture.
> Accident waiting to happen, a year down the road.
>  
> How long are they holding up?
>  
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>  
>  
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Brian Rohrbacher"  
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List"   
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] pcb
>  
>  
>   
>
> Let me know when you order.  They have a min order number.  I got some a
> couple yrs ago and sold a bunch.  I think you had to order 500-1000.
> Now I am a little low.  I might take some off your hands if you don't
> want that many.
>  
> Brian
>  
> Travis Johnson wrote:
> 
>
> Hi,
>  
> Who sells the plastic 3M PCB with adhesive backing? Like for mounting
> routerboards inside cases?
>  
> Travis
> Microserv
>  
>  
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>  
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>  
>  
>   
>
> 
> 
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>  
>  
>  
> 
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>   
>  
>
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>
>   _  
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>
>
>  
>  
>  
> 
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Re: [WISPA] pcb

[John Valenti]

Tom,

One thing I did when I was building StarOS radios was use one  
mounting screw per board. Partly I was doing that because I thought  
the board should be grounded to the case, but it also would have  
helped if the glue failed on the plastic standoffs.

Also, I'm not sure what the bad effects would be if the glue failed.  
The standoffs would prevent the board from shorting out on the  
bottom, enough other components would prevent it from shorting on the  
top (probably).  The stiff ethernet cable would sort of keep it in  
position.  (in a DCE anyway, maybe a Rootenna would provide too much  
wiggle room)

But I didn't build enough of them, or have them in service long  
enough to draw any conclusions. Or rather, I came to the conclusion  
that I hated u.FL connectors; and assembled Lucaya M1208 radios were  
way better!


On February 17, at 6:24 PM February 17, Tom DeReggi wrote:

> Well, I guess an alternative is that if Plastic cases are used,  
> there wouldn't be much risk if the standoffs fell off. Next trip  
> up, just bring new standoffs and restick.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc




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Re: [WISPA] MT tools

[Travis Johnson]

I have already emailed Mikrotik a week ago, and opened a new thread on
their forum. They should at least get the idea of what I need and
develop a test that is specific to their wireless.

I do NOT want this to turn into a year long project.

Travis


Tom DeReggi wrote:

  Butch,

You have misunderstood.  (you must have been reading top down)

I was responding to Dennis Burgess's post, who was showing interest in 
possibly getting involved to ask Mikrotik on our behalf, but first asked for 
clarification on exactly what features we wanted.

Its not as clear cut as just asking for something. We ourselves need to be 
clear about what we want. These are very technical issues. If it were easy, 
it would have already been done. My post brought up real technical traits 
that needed to be considered in defining what was best to ask for. You of 
all people as a consultant should understand these technical differences. 
I'm not a know-it-all Lone Ranger, I also am looking for feedback from 
others that may have ideas. Going to MT with an unrealistic request or one 
that was not fully thought out, would just be a waste of their time.

This thread was not meant to point out inferiorities in a protocol or 
product. It was meant to find ways for innovation and improvement. Believe 
me, when I got something to ask for, or something to complain about, I have 
no problem going direct to the manufacturer in a flash, but I need help from 
my peers for developing ideas.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT tools


  
  
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008, Tom DeReggi wrote:



  I concur with Travis, on what we'd like to see happen, but... I'd
add that what he asks for may not be realistic or meaningful for
MT.
  

As I said several days ago...you will NOT see this function unless
you ask MikroTik.  [EMAIL PROTECTED].  It does not currently
exist in the way you say you want it.  IF you want this, then you
must ask for it.  There are several options I presented for getting
some of the data, but you didn't like that idea either.  Sounds to
me like you are just wanting to complain.

-- 

*Butch Evans *Professional Network Consultation *
*Network Engineering *MikroTik RouterOS*
*573-276-2879 *ImageStream   *
*http://www.butchevans.com/ *StarOS and MORE   *
*Mikrotik Certified Consultant *Wired or Wireless Networks*




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Re: [WISPA] pcb Ask Tony Morella

[tonylist]

We don't use them that much anymore in the new product lines but we do have
stock they are .25 each less than 100 and 20 each with 100+.  You can call
and talk to one of our sales reps to order just reference part number
MF-SLAD250ADH.

 

Sincerely, Tony Morella

Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider

Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008

  http://www.demarctech.com 

 

This communication constitutes an electronic communication within the
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disclosure is strictly limited to the recipient intended by the sender of
this message. This communication may contain  confidential and privileged
material for the sole use of the intended recipient and receipt by anyone
other than the intended recipient does not constitute a loss of the
confidential or privileged nature of the communication. Any review or
distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient please contact the sender by return electronic mail and delete all
copies of this communication

 

 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 4:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] pcb Ask Tony Morella

 

It was suppose to say Have you had a problem Tony?

Brian Rohrbacher wrote: 

Demarctech has used them for a couple years.  Have you had a problem.  I
have not had a problem with the ones in the Demarctech products.

Brian

Tom DeReggi wrote: 

Well, I'd rather ask... How have the adhesive backed mounts been working 
out?
 
I'm afraid to use them. We use the little golden metal standoffs, bolt them 
in, and water proof.
Afraid the board will come loose and short out, after significant heat or 
cold or moisture.
Accident waiting to happen, a year down the road.
 
How long are they holding up?
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Rohrbacher"  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List"   
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] pcb
 
 
  

Let me know when you order.  They have a min order number.  I got some a
couple yrs ago and sold a bunch.  I think you had to order 500-1000.
Now I am a little low.  I might take some off your hands if you don't
want that many.
 
Brian
 
Travis Johnson wrote:


Hi,
 
Who sells the plastic 3M PCB with adhesive backing? Like for mounting
routerboards inside cases?
 
Travis
Microserv
 
 


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Re: [WISPA] [WISPA Members] WLAN stress test uncovers802.11performance problems

[tonylist]

Kurt

This is a good point, the CPEs are all sending a signal back to the AP at
random times but as you scale more are hitting at the same time which can
over load the receivers on some AP radios. When you lower the power on the
units that are closer this reduces the total power levels the radio is
seeing at a single moment in time.  In general you want to see the same
single back from all the CPEs to the AP.


Sincerely, Tony Morella
Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider
Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008
http://www.demarctech.com 
 
This communication constitutes an electronic communication within the
meaning of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 USC 2510, and its
disclosure is strictly limited to the recipient intended by the sender of
this message. This communication may contain  confidential and privileged
material for the sole use of the intended recipient and receipt by anyone
other than the intended recipient does not constitute a loss of the
confidential or privileged nature of the communication. Any review or
distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient please contact the sender by return electronic mail and delete all
copies of this communication




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 11:06 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] [WISPA Members] WLAN stress test
uncovers802.11performance problems

One thing I have noticed after adding 50+ customers on a omni is that
you get better performance by turning the TX power DOWN on the clients
within 1 mile. I would assume this is so because of some kind of self
interference.

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 1:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] [WISPA Members] WLAN stress test
uncovers802.11performance problems

Jack

I will give in to your challenge, and focus on outdoors setups :) But
first,
I agree with you 100% about your comments; some venders saying "add more
APs
will help" as well as " their smart systems will solve all their
performance
issues.

We have been watching, talking and helping some of the people involved
in
the so called "city wide wifi" and many if not all of them are simply
not
adhering to the strengths of wifi and trying to make the protocol do
things
it will not.  When we get calls like this the most common misconceptions
is
they expect laptops to work miles away from the AP, Non-LOS, and Omni
installs to keep it simple. Then we put on our training hats to bring
them
down to earth on what to really expect and how to design a system
correctly.


Ok now to a design ideas, first I want to point out that each design is
going to be different but if the basic concepts are followed it will
work
each and every time.
1. Before any design can be started you really want to get a
base
line as to what one is starting with. We always recommend rents hand
held SA
and do field tests to see what other frequencies are out there being
used
and do your best to triangulate and find out where they are coming from.
This data should be recorded on a map for future reference.
2. 90% of our customers try to find the highest place in the
middle
of the area they are trying to serve, while this could be the best
choice
for a design it's not the only or best one. See if you can service the
same
area from the outside in, for example if you are able to find three
locations on the outer rim of an area and use 120 degree antennas this
will
increase your true coverage area exponentially as the installers now
have
three locations to try vs. one. The latest customer we helped with a
design
went from 25% install rate to 90%, thus it's well worth the costs for
the
extra two locations up front where the costs of a truck role is about
$50
minimum if the customer is installed or not! The first month this design
saved the customer well over $5000 in install fees plus he now over 100
customers generating income that he would not have at this point!
3. Once the locations are found on the tower or building you
REALY
want to avoid installing antennas anywhere near each other. On a tower
try
to install the antennas with 10' vertical separation at a minimum, more
is
better and vertical is more important than horizontal.  Also try to have
2-3' horizontal separation.  Ideally you want to create a spiral stair
case
effect with the antennas. 
4. This is where the setup is very important, you NEED to limit
the
distance of each antennas to be practical. For example if you are in a
rural
area this could be 10+ miles where you do not see any other radio
signals
via the antenna, yes you want to test with an SA directly on the
antennas to
confirm! In