Re: [WISPA] does water ruin antennas?

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Yeah, use wireless!

OK, other than that, there is a device that basically drills a horizontal 
hole in the ground.  Or it'll push conduit through the ground.

Out here it's called pushing a line.  Not sure what the real term is for the 
device that does the drilling/pushing.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] does water ruin antennas?


>
>
> Hello,
>
> If one was wanting to run fiber in an already developed neighborhood, the
> obvious obstacles are existing concrete roads, drives and sidewalks. What
> are your options for getting around this other than destroying and fixing
> which is not an option? Is there a technology that would allow you to 
> drive
> conduit underneath concrete drives and such?
>
> Thanks,
> John Buwa
> Michiana Wireless
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
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[WISPA] Running Fiber

[Sales]

Ikes, sorry for hijacking the last thread and forgetting to change the
subject!

-=-=-=-=

Hello,

If one was wanting to run fiber in an already developed neighborhood, the
obvious obstacles are existing concrete roads, drives and sidewalks. What
are your options for getting around this other than destroying and fixing
which is not an option? Is there a technology that would allow you to drive
conduit underneath concrete drives and such?

Michiana Wireless, Inc.
John Buwa, President
 
http://WWW.MichianaWireless.Com
574-233-7170
 
"Lose the wires, discover the speed, enjoy the freedom!"

*US Distributor for www.itelite.net Antennas*


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 12:02 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] does water ruin antennas?
> 
> Antennas a cheap these days.  When in doubt, toss it out.
> 
> I replace everything, radio included, all of the time now.  Started
> doing
> that a couple of years ago, man has my life gotten better and my work
> load
> lighter!
> marlon
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Brian Rohrbacher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Conversations over a new WISP Trade Organization"
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:56 AM
> Subject: [WISPA] does water ruin antennas?
> 
> 
> > So, if I have a suspect antenna that might have got water in it, is
> it
> > ruined, or can it dry out, be resealed and work just fine?
> >
> >
> > Specifically, I have a couple omni's from sites that seemed to be
> under
> > powered.  The culprit could have been the radio card, pigtail, cable
> or
> > omni, I don't know.  I replaced it all.  The reason I ask about the
> omni
> > is because way back a few years ago I got paranoid after I have some
> > water issues.  A couple of these omni's I put too much tape and
> mastic
> > on the bottom by the connector.  I wrapped it up too high and thick
> and
> > covered the weep holes in the bottom of the omni.  So maybe I got
> > condensation, or water in there if it could not leak out
> >
> > So if an omni like that got wet, will it dry and be ok?  What about a
> > dipole on a grid?
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >
> > -
> ---
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Re: [WISPA] does water ruin antennas?

[Sales]

Hello,

If one was wanting to run fiber in an already developed neighborhood, the
obvious obstacles are existing concrete roads, drives and sidewalks. What
are your options for getting around this other than destroying and fixing
which is not an option? Is there a technology that would allow you to drive
conduit underneath concrete drives and such?

Thanks,
John Buwa
Michiana Wireless





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Re: [WISPA] does water ruin antennas?

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Antennas a cheap these days.  When in doubt, toss it out.

I replace everything, radio included, all of the time now.  Started doing 
that a couple of years ago, man has my life gotten better and my work load 
lighter!
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Rohrbacher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Conversations over a new WISP Trade Organization" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:56 AM
Subject: [WISPA] does water ruin antennas?


> So, if I have a suspect antenna that might have got water in it, is it
> ruined, or can it dry out, be resealed and work just fine?
>
>
> Specifically, I have a couple omni's from sites that seemed to be under
> powered.  The culprit could have been the radio card, pigtail, cable or
> omni, I don't know.  I replaced it all.  The reason I ask about the omni
> is because way back a few years ago I got paranoid after I have some
> water issues.  A couple of these omni's I put too much tape and mastic
> on the bottom by the connector.  I wrapped it up too high and thick and
> covered the weep holes in the bottom of the omni.  So maybe I got
> condensation, or water in there if it could not leak out
>
> So if an omni like that got wet, will it dry and be ok?  What about a
> dipole on a grid?
>
> Brian
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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Re: [WISPA] Cat5e modular plugs

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Nothing I've ever seen beats the RJ45ez connectors and crimper.  Not having to 
deal with the length of the strip is way cool.  I never screw up connectors 
anymore.
marlon

  - Original Message - 
  From: Brian Rohrbacher 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cat5e modular plugs


  In case someone wants to see what they are all about.

  http://www.computercablestore.com/PDF/1-5E45LB.pdf

  Randy Cosby wrote: 
Those connectors are the only way to go.

Google for "Stewart RJ45 CAT5e Modular Connectors"

Randy






Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
  I am looking for a certain type I ordered once.  When you push the cable 
into the plug, and look at the plug from the end, all the solid color 
cables are on the top row and all the striped colors are on the bottom.  
It was real easy to look at and see it was correct.  Now, all I can find 
is the plugs that are the wires line up in one row. 

Anyone know what they are called or where I can find them?

brian



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Re: [WISPA] Anyone service Pasco Wa.?

[Marlon K. Schafer]

My wife works for his brother and he went to school with my little sister. 
Take good care of him! grin

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Todd Brandenburg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Anyone service Pasco Wa.?


> Sure, we'd be glad to help out.  This is our neck of the woods.
>
> Thanks Marlon!
>
> Todd
>
>
> Todd Brandenburg
> President
> PocketiNet Communications, Inc.
> 509-593-4706 direct
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
> Sent: 2008-08-14 08:31
> To: WISPA General List
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WISPA] Anyone service Pasco Wa.?
>
> We're at 2731 Birch Rd., Pasco.
>
> Customer is at Contact Dale at [EMAIL PROTECTED]  He's on Sat. but would
> love to go wireless.
>
> Laters,
> marlon
>
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] coax cables

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Elliptical waveguide will lose 3 dB in 250 feet.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Brownson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] coax cables


> To give you the facts.  You can use just about any coax you want.  But you
> will have loss.  The smaller the cable the higher the loss.
>
> Examples:
> RG8 lose 3 db in 17 ft
> LMR400  lose 3db in 26 ft
> LMR600   lose 3 db in 40 ft
> 1/2 heliax   lose 3 db in 49 ft
> LMR900  lose 3 db in 60 ft
> 5/8 heliax   lose 3 db in 64 ft
>
>
> Remember that for every 6dB in loss you lose half your transmit and 
> receive
> range.  So with 34 ft of RG 8 instead of 5 miles you get 2.5.  So use
> whatever cable you can get away with and still have the performance you
> need.  If you need every miliwatt to be useful then use coax only as a 
> short
> jumper.
>
> Mike B
>
>
> On 8/19/08 9:45 PM, "Matt Jenkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> LMR 400? Are you crazy? Heliax 1/2 is the only way to go!
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> It can but the loss is high and the braid is much less. Stick with LMRs
>>> 400 *,5 '22@ )+_3 "2,/(:4 32*" 4:+3(
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: RickG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>
>>> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:33:57
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: [WISPA] coax cables
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm running coax down my tower and came across and RG8/U. Can this be
>>> used on 5GHz?
>>> -RickG
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> ---
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> ---
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>>
>>
>> --
>> --
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>
> -- 
> Mike Brownson
> Hutton Communications
> 5015 Paris St
> Denver, CO 80239
> 303-373-3170
>
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Re: [WISPA] coax cables

[Mike Brownson]

To give you the facts.  You can use just about any coax you want.  But you
will have loss.  The smaller the cable the higher the loss.

Examples:
RG8 lose 3 db in 17 ft
LMR400  lose 3db in 26 ft
LMR600   lose 3 db in 40 ft
1/2 heliax   lose 3 db in 49 ft
LMR900  lose 3 db in 60 ft
5/8 heliax   lose 3 db in 64 ft


Remember that for every 6dB in loss you lose half your transmit and receive
range.  So with 34 ft of RG 8 instead of 5 miles you get 2.5.  So use
whatever cable you can get away with and still have the performance you
need.  If you need every miliwatt to be useful then use coax only as a short
jumper.

Mike B


On 8/19/08 9:45 PM, "Matt Jenkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> LMR 400? Are you crazy? Heliax 1/2 is the only way to go!
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> It can but the loss is high and the braid is much less. Stick with LMRs
>> 400 *,5 '22@ )+_3 "2,/(:4 32*" 4:+3(
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: RickG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> 
>> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:33:57
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: [WISPA] coax cables
>> 
>> 
>> I'm running coax down my tower and came across and RG8/U. Can this be
>> used on 5GHz?
>> -RickG
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> ---
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> -
>> ---
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-- 
Mike Brownson
Hutton Communications
5015 Paris St
Denver, CO 80239
303-373-3170

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you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This 
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Re: [WISPA] coax cables

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I would never use coax for 5.8 period.  Not unless you are only going a few 
feet.
LMR900 can be used for up to 50 feet.  It is better than 1/2 heliax.  But 
really, you gotta use waveguide if you are going any distance at all.

- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Jenkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] coax cables


> LMR 400? Are you crazy? Heliax 1/2 is the only way to go!
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> It can but the loss is high and the braid is much less. Stick with LMRs
>> 400 *,5 '22@ )+_3 "2,/(:4 32*" 4:+3(
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: RickG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:33:57
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: [WISPA] coax cables
>>
>>
>> I'm running coax down my tower and came across and RG8/U. Can this be
>> used on 5GHz?
>> -RickG
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
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>>
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>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [WISPA] coax cables

[Matt Jenkins]

LMR 400? Are you crazy? Heliax 1/2 is the only way to go!

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It can but the loss is high and the braid is much less. Stick with LMRs
> 400 *,5 '22@ )+_3 "2,/(:4 32*" 4:+3(
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: RickG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:33:57 
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] coax cables
> 
> 
> I'm running coax down my tower and came across and RG8/U. Can this be
> used on 5GHz?
> -RickG
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Nanostation

[Matt Jenkins]

www.wlanparts.com or www.streakwave.com are the only two places I have 
ever ordered from.

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
> Does anyone know of any nano or powerstations in stock?
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Anyone heard of SBC Satellite

[Stuart Browne]

An example of  an asymmetrical satellite link would be a 128 kbps
uplink with a 2 mbps downlink. One way broadcast satellite internet is
simplex with a land line return channel! Did that back "in the day"
into Asia from an uplink in Hawaii.

On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 7:55 PM, Jeromie Reeves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I did not know anyone was still pushing one way satellite internet.
> Having them as your customer is interesting and might have value but
> im hard pressed to see it.
>
> Stu, not all sat based internet is two way.
>
> http://www.whitehawkmedia.com/Attitude/SatLink.asp
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Stuart Browne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Pat...all consumer satellite internet is asymetrical. Business class,
>> government and broadcast have serious QoS and a small contention ratio
>> over the TDM/TDMA channels they use. Wild Blue/HNS etc use very high
>> contention ratios which results in slow service and they have to
>> charge users who use what they consider to be "excess capacity.
>> Transition the customers to a solid LOS radiolink  when you can.
>>
>> Stu Browne
>> FCC PG-23-1159
>> WH6H
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Patrick Nix Jr.
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> A company named Satellite Broadband Connection just approached us re:
>>> offering their product as an alternative to otherwise un-serviceable
>>> customers.  Is anyone currently partnered with them? How is it going?
>>> My complaint is that it is asymmetric using dial-up as the upstream.  It
>>> doesn't seem to me that it would compete well against wild blue/hughes
>>> which offers bi-directional connectivity.  One good thing is you
>>> supposedly own the customer so that you could switch them out to
>>> wireless when/if it becomes available.  Pricing is not too bad it seems.
>>>
>>> www.satellitebc.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>> __
>>>
>>> Patrick Nix, Jr.,
>>> csweb.net
>>> (918) 235-0414
>>> http://www.csweb.net
>>> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>> 
>>> ATTENTION: This e-mail may contain information that is confidential in
>>> nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail
>>> and notify the sender immediately. Thank you.
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
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>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
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>>
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>
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Re: [WISPA] Cat5e modular plugs

[Tom DeReggi]

Would like to mention that there is not a one-fit-all solution for CAT5 
jacks. Whats best depends on the Cable type.

For example, For Shireen cable, Shireen has excellent one peice shielded 
plugs. Very easy to use. Perfect fit..

However,  they do not work well with the Superior Essex Outdoor Direct 
Buriel cable, that has thicker individual insulation on the wires and 
stiffer wires. Its to hard to fit the 8 wires side by side into the plug. 
For this its often better to use a split connector, so you can feed it in, 
cut it, and then insert in connector body. But I hate these except when its 
necessary, becaue I always lose the inner insert peices :-(

The Steward connector looked nice... Do they have a shielded version?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Randy Cosby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cat5e modular plugs


> Those connectors are the only way to go.
>
> Google for "Stewart RJ45 CAT5e Modular Connectors"
>
> Randy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
>> I am looking for a certain type I ordered once.  When you push the cable
>> into the plug, and look at the plug from the end, all the solid color
>> cables are on the top row and all the striped colors are on the bottom.
>> It was real easy to look at and see it was correct.  Now, all I can find
>> is the plugs that are the wires line up in one row.
>>
>> Anyone know what they are called or where I can find them?
>>
>> brian
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
> -- 
> Randy Cosby
> Vice President
> InfoWest, Inc
>
> office: 435-773-6071
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
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>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.4/1616 - Release Date: 8/16/2008 
> 5:12 PM
>
> 




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Re: [WISPA] Fixing dead CPE

[Kurt Fankhauser]

I just take two flathead screwdrivers and start in the middle of one of the
sides and keep working my way all the way around. Then I re-seal it with
some of that black silicone. Don't use the clear silicone it doesn't hold as
good. I've probably done 30 of these on out-of-warranty units and it works
great.

 

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com

 

 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Blair Davis
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fixing dead CPE

 

how do you get them open without breaking them?

And, maybe the crossroads would work in them?  

Kurt Fankhauser wrote: 

RB133 and radio of your choice, costs around $100 and you get more features
than Tranzeo and I think better throughput. Only problem with the newer Slim
Line series the Rj-45 pigtail is gone since they mount their SBC right up to
the hole under the boot so adding an aftermarket board is a problem and I
haven't figured out how to do it yet.
 
Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com
 
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:01 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fixing dead CPE
 
I've hear some are repairing themselves by putting in their alternative
boards? I'd like to hear what works best.
-RickG
 
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Blair Davis  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
  

 Well, I gave them a ring.  They are net doing Tranzeo.
 
Any others out there?
 
Jim Patient wrote:
 
1-866-439-5469
http://cgi3.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage

&userid=ezlinxnet
 
Jim
 
Blair Davis wrote:
 
 
 The ez one I had heard of, but, if either is on here, hopefully, he will
see this and drop me a line.
 
Thanks
 
Blair
 
Cameron Kilton wrote:
 
 
 
 Exlinx is one guy
 
Jack Weinberg is the dude.
 
 
-Cam
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] On
  

Behalf Of Blair Davis
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:10 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Fixing dead CPE
 
Anybody know who fixes failed CPE?
 
I've ended up with a few Tranzeo units that have died out of warranty
and I'd like to see if they can be fixed.
 
Think I've seen him on here ez something...
 
Blair
 
 
 
 


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Re: [WISPA] Fixing dead CPE

[Blair Davis]

how do you get them open without breaking them?

And, maybe the crossroads would work in them?  

Kurt Fankhauser wrote:

  RB133 and radio of your choice, costs around $100 and you get more features
than Tranzeo and I think better throughput. Only problem with the newer Slim
Line series the Rj-45 pigtail is gone since they mount their SBC right up to
the hole under the boot so adding an aftermarket board is a problem and I
haven't figured out how to do it yet.

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com
 
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:01 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fixing dead CPE

I've hear some are repairing themselves by putting in their alternative
boards? I'd like to hear what works best.
-RickG

On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Blair Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  
  
 Well, I gave them a ring.  They are net doing Tranzeo.

Any others out there?

Jim Patient wrote:

1-866-439-5469
http://cgi3.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=ezlinxnet

Jim

Blair Davis wrote:


 The ez one I had heard of, but, if either is on here, hopefully, he will
see this and drop me a line.

Thanks

Blair

Cameron Kilton wrote:



 Exlinx is one guy

Jack Weinberg is the dude.


-Cam

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] On
  
  
Behalf Of Blair Davis
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:10 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Fixing dead CPE

Anybody know who fixes failed CPE?

I've ended up with a few Tranzeo units that have died out of warranty
and I'd like to see if they can be fixed.

Think I've seen him on here ez something...

Blair






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Re: [WISPA] Anyone heard of SBC Satellite

[Jeromie Reeves]

I did not know anyone was still pushing one way satellite internet.
Having them as your customer is interesting and might have value but
im hard pressed to see it.

Stu, not all sat based internet is two way.

http://www.whitehawkmedia.com/Attitude/SatLink.asp



On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Stuart Browne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Pat...all consumer satellite internet is asymetrical. Business class,
> government and broadcast have serious QoS and a small contention ratio
> over the TDM/TDMA channels they use. Wild Blue/HNS etc use very high
> contention ratios which results in slow service and they have to
> charge users who use what they consider to be "excess capacity.
> Transition the customers to a solid LOS radiolink  when you can.
>
> Stu Browne
> FCC PG-23-1159
> WH6H
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Patrick Nix Jr.
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> A company named Satellite Broadband Connection just approached us re:
>> offering their product as an alternative to otherwise un-serviceable
>> customers.  Is anyone currently partnered with them? How is it going?
>> My complaint is that it is asymmetric using dial-up as the upstream.  It
>> doesn't seem to me that it would compete well against wild blue/hughes
>> which offers bi-directional connectivity.  One good thing is you
>> supposedly own the customer so that you could switch them out to
>> wireless when/if it becomes available.  Pricing is not too bad it seems.
>>
>> www.satellitebc.com
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> __
>>
>> Patrick Nix, Jr.,
>> csweb.net
>> (918) 235-0414
>> http://www.csweb.net
>> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> 
>> ATTENTION: This e-mail may contain information that is confidential in
>> nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail
>> and notify the sender immediately. Thank you.
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
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>
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Re: [WISPA] Anyone heard of SBC Satellite

[Stuart Browne]

Pat...all consumer satellite internet is asymetrical. Business class,
government and broadcast have serious QoS and a small contention ratio
over the TDM/TDMA channels they use. Wild Blue/HNS etc use very high
contention ratios which results in slow service and they have to
charge users who use what they consider to be "excess capacity.
Transition the customers to a solid LOS radiolink  when you can.

Stu Browne
FCC PG-23-1159
WH6H


On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Patrick Nix Jr.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A company named Satellite Broadband Connection just approached us re:
> offering their product as an alternative to otherwise un-serviceable
> customers.  Is anyone currently partnered with them? How is it going?
> My complaint is that it is asymmetric using dial-up as the upstream.  It
> doesn't seem to me that it would compete well against wild blue/hughes
> which offers bi-directional connectivity.  One good thing is you
> supposedly own the customer so that you could switch them out to
> wireless when/if it becomes available.  Pricing is not too bad it seems.
>
> www.satellitebc.com
>
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> __
>
> Patrick Nix, Jr.,
> csweb.net
> (918) 235-0414
> http://www.csweb.net
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
> ATTENTION: This e-mail may contain information that is confidential in
> nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail
> and notify the sender immediately. Thank you.
> 
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
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Re: [WISPA] Cat5e modular plugs

[Brian Rohrbacher]

That is what the google search found, and I was ok with $0.15 a piece
for 1000.  :)

Randy Cosby wrote:

  Ok, was trying not to plug one particular store, but yeah, we get them 
there :)

Randy


Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
  
  
In case someone wants to see what they are all about.

http://www.computercablestore.com/PDF/1-5E45LB.pdf

Randy Cosby wrote:


  Those connectors are the only way to go.

Google for "Stewart RJ45 CAT5e Modular Connectors"

Randy






Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
  
  
  
I am looking for a certain type I ordered once.  When you push the cable 
into the plug, and look at the plug from the end, all the solid color 
cables are on the top row and all the striped colors are on the bottom.  
It was real easy to look at and see it was correct.  Now, all I can find 
is the plugs that are the wires line up in one row. 

Anyone know what they are called or where I can find them?

brian



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Re: [WISPA] Cat5e modular plugs

[Randy Cosby]

Ok, was trying not to plug one particular store, but yeah, we get them 
there :)

Randy


Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
> In case someone wants to see what they are all about.
> 
> http://www.computercablestore.com/PDF/1-5E45LB.pdf
> 
> Randy Cosby wrote:
>> Those connectors are the only way to go.
>>
>> Google for "Stewart RJ45 CAT5e Modular Connectors"
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
>>   
>>> I am looking for a certain type I ordered once.  When you push the cable 
>>> into the plug, and look at the plug from the end, all the solid color 
>>> cables are on the top row and all the striped colors are on the bottom.  
>>> It was real easy to look at and see it was correct.  Now, all I can find 
>>> is the plugs that are the wires line up in one row. 
>>>
>>> Anyone know what they are called or where I can find them?
>>>
>>> brian
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>  
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>> 
>>
>>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
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-- 
Randy Cosby
Vice President
InfoWest, Inc

office: 435-773-6071




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Re: [WISPA] Cat5e modular plugs

[Brian Rohrbacher]

In case someone wants to see what they are all about.

http://www.computercablestore.com/PDF/1-5E45LB.pdf

Randy Cosby wrote:

  Those connectors are the only way to go.

Google for "Stewart RJ45 CAT5e Modular Connectors"

Randy






Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
  
  
I am looking for a certain type I ordered once.  When you push the cable 
into the plug, and look at the plug from the end, all the solid color 
cables are on the top row and all the striped colors are on the bottom.  
It was real easy to look at and see it was correct.  Now, all I can find 
is the plugs that are the wires line up in one row. 

Anyone know what they are called or where I can find them?

brian



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Re: [WISPA] Cat5e modular plugs

[Randy Cosby]

Those connectors are the only way to go.

Google for "Stewart RJ45 CAT5e Modular Connectors"

Randy






Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
> I am looking for a certain type I ordered once.  When you push the cable 
> into the plug, and look at the plug from the end, all the solid color 
> cables are on the top row and all the striped colors are on the bottom.  
> It was real easy to look at and see it was correct.  Now, all I can find 
> is the plugs that are the wires line up in one row. 
> 
> Anyone know what they are called or where I can find them?
> 
> brian
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
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InfoWest, Inc

office: 435-773-6071




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[WISPA] Cat5e modular plugs

[Brian Rohrbacher]

I am looking for a certain type I ordered once.  When you push the cable 
into the plug, and look at the plug from the end, all the solid color 
cables are on the top row and all the striped colors are on the bottom.  
It was real easy to look at and see it was correct.  Now, all I can find 
is the plugs that are the wires line up in one row. 

Anyone know what they are called or where I can find them?

brian



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Re: [WISPA] Nanostation

[Travis Johnson]

I have one 2.4ghz and two 5.8ghz units brand new I will sell. Contact me 
off list.

Travis
Microserv

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
> Does anyone know of any nano or powerstations in stock?
>
> Brian
>
>
> 
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[WISPA] Dell 3324 Switch

[Scottie Arnett]

Do any of you use the Dell 3324 switches? If so, what are some good settings to 
enter in the storm control that it has in it? It has settings for Unknown 
Unicast, Unknown Multicast, and Broadcast...these can be enabled or disabled. 
It also has a rate threshold that is determined in fps and can be set from 
250-148,000. 

Any insight wil be greatly appreciated. 

Scottie 

Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth.
Check out www.info-ed.com for information.



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[WISPA] Nanostation

[Brian Rohrbacher]

Does anyone know of any nano or powerstations in stock?

Brian



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[WISPA] Anyone heard of SBC Satellite

[Patrick Nix Jr.]

A company named Satellite Broadband Connection just approached us re:
offering their product as an alternative to otherwise un-serviceable
customers.  Is anyone currently partnered with them? How is it going?
My complaint is that it is asymmetric using dial-up as the upstream.  It
doesn't seem to me that it would compete well against wild blue/hughes
which offers bi-directional connectivity.  One good thing is you
supposedly own the customer so that you could switch them out to
wireless when/if it becomes available.  Pricing is not too bad it seems.

www.satellitebc.com


Any thoughts?

__
 
Patrick Nix, Jr.,
csweb.net
(918) 235-0414
http://www.csweb.net
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

ATTENTION: This e-mail may contain information that is confidential in
nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail
and notify the sender immediately. Thank you.





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Re: [WISPA] does water ruin antennas?

[Jack Unger]

Brian,

The answer is "it depends". If a little water got into an antenna and 
came back out without staying in there too long, the antenna could be 
fine. On the other hand, if a lot of water got in and stayed for a while 
then it could cause corrosion that would prevent the antenna from 
working properly anymore. The same should apply to the dipole on the grid.

jack


Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
> So, if I have a suspect antenna that might have got water in it, is it 
> ruined, or can it dry out, be resealed and work just fine?
>
>
> Specifically, I have a couple omni's from sites that seemed to be under 
> powered.  The culprit could have been the radio card, pigtail, cable or 
> omni, I don't know.  I replaced it all.  The reason I ask about the omni 
> is because way back a few years ago I got paranoid after I have some 
> water issues.  A couple of these omni's I put too much tape and mastic 
> on the bottom by the connector.  I wrapped it up too high and thick and 
> covered the weep holes in the bottom of the omni.  So maybe I got 
> condensation, or water in there if it could not leak out
>
> So if an omni like that got wet, will it dry and be ok?  What about a 
> dipole on a grid?
>
> Brian
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
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> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
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-- 
Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
NEXT ONLINE TRAINING AUGUST 18-19 2008 
FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile 
Phone 818-227-4220  Email <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>






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Re: [WISPA] does water ruin antennas?

[Mac Dearman]

Brian,

  It is my opinion that once the internal components of the antenna dry
thoroughly - - you can seal them and put them back into service. It will
depend on how long they were exposed to the water and the amount of
corrosion that may/may not be present as to whether they are actually usable
or suitable for service. I personally haven't ever been able to put one back
into service since they were exposed to water for long periods before they
actually died or got so bad that I noticed a signal level drop on the AP.

YMMV,
Mac



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 12:57 PM
> To: Conversations over a new WISP Trade Organization
> Subject: [WISPA] does water ruin antennas?
> 
> So, if I have a suspect antenna that might have got water in it, is it
> ruined, or can it dry out, be resealed and work just fine?
> 
> 
> Specifically, I have a couple omni's from sites that seemed to be under
> powered.  The culprit could have been the radio card, pigtail, cable or
> omni, I don't know.  I replaced it all.  The reason I ask about the
> omni
> is because way back a few years ago I got paranoid after I have some
> water issues.  A couple of these omni's I put too much tape and mastic
> on the bottom by the connector.  I wrapped it up too high and thick and
> covered the weep holes in the bottom of the omni.  So maybe I got
> condensation, or water in there if it could not leak out
> 
> So if an omni like that got wet, will it dry and be ok?  What about a
> dipole on a grid?
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> ---
> -
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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[WISPA] does water ruin antennas?

[Brian Rohrbacher]

So, if I have a suspect antenna that might have got water in it, is it 
ruined, or can it dry out, be resealed and work just fine?


Specifically, I have a couple omni's from sites that seemed to be under 
powered.  The culprit could have been the radio card, pigtail, cable or 
omni, I don't know.  I replaced it all.  The reason I ask about the omni 
is because way back a few years ago I got paranoid after I have some 
water issues.  A couple of these omni's I put too much tape and mastic 
on the bottom by the connector.  I wrapped it up too high and thick and 
covered the weep holes in the bottom of the omni.  So maybe I got 
condensation, or water in there if it could not leak out

So if an omni like that got wet, will it dry and be ok?  What about a 
dipole on a grid?

Brian



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Re: [WISPA] VLan or VPN to multiple points

[Mike Hammett]

Right, and I don't believe Mikrotik supports them all, but upon introduction 
they did support many of them and I've more popping up as time goes on.

When is IS going to have MPLS?


--
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Jeff Broadwick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VLan or VPN to multiple points


> MPLS isn't one thing, it's a set of over 50 RFCs.  Most implementations
> don't have all of them at this point.  When you look to implement MPLS, 
> you
> need to know which parts you need and then make sure that your provider
> supports them.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:46 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VLan or VPN to multiple points
>
> Mikrotik supports MPLS.
>
>
> --
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VLan or VPN to multiple points
>
>
>> Ok.
>>
>> When someone designs an end to end  transport network they are committing
>> to
>> being a layer3 or a layer2 network by design.
>> Sure you can have bridged components on a routed network, and you can 
>> have
>> routed end devices on a bridged network, and you can do it differently on
>> your WAN, MAN, Last mile Relays.  But functionally all-in-all, your city
>> transport that transposts the VPN is either are layer2 or layer3 network.
>> This is what defines what VPN alternative you have to offer.
>>
>> One of the benefits I sell is Office to Office connectivity, BYPASSING 
>> the
>> Public Internet, with a controlled On-Net path across my LAyer3 network.
>> Adding the benefit of one connection to accomplish both Internet and
>> private
>> network functionality.  This is both a QOS and Cost advantage, but all in
>> all, I price it like Internet access, because its functionally routed 
>> like
>> Internet traffic using Layer3.
>>
>> Its important to under stand the difference between Layer2 and Layer3
>> VLANs.
>> LAyer3 generally offers shortest path, via the same rules that apply to
>> all
>> customer's traffic.  Layer2 VLANs offer something different.  Layer2
>> generally provides a static path (not necessarilly shortest path)
>> engineered
>> between two points.  When at Layer2, a defines capacity can be
>> provisioned,
>> without concern for distance and quality that might come into play to
>> effect
>> real world throughput if had done at layer3 w/ native re-transmission and
>> Congestion avoidence mechanisms.  There are many efficiency benefits of
>> LAyer3, that will never be achieved at Layer2, and Layer2 offers many
>> things
>> Layer 3 will never deliver.
>>
>> The point I'm making is, the provider needs to determine the factors that
>> are most beneficial to them as a provider and their prospective market.
>> Those decissions are so much more important than the type of VPN or VLAN
>> used.  And that is what you are really comparing when comparing two
>> providers' VPN Connectivity offerings.
>>
>> To offer basic VLAN redundancy it requires all paths to be connected at
>> layer2 so the Spanning tree protocols talk and work.  But layer2
>> redundancy
>> protocols can fuinctionally break LAyer3 redundancy (such as OSPF and
>> IBGP).
>> So its really choosing one or the other.
>>
>> MPLS solves all this, by adding VPN, Layer2, QOS, preferred path, all in 
>> a
>> single platform of protocols.  Sorta the best of both worlds (LAyer2 and
>> LAyer3).
>> The problem is MPLS is not cost effective to deploy in most cases, 
>> because
>> the MPLS manufacturers charge to high an inflated markup on MPLS enabled
>> gear. There is no technical reason why MPLS gear needs to cost more. But
>> it
>> still does.  Its the difference between buying a new $20,000 MPLS router
>> and
>> a used $500 thirdparty or used non-MPLS router. Sure there are exceptions
>> all over the place to get a deal, but the whole network needs to talk 
>> MPLS
>> for it to really be beneficial, so if you can't find 100% of it cheap, 
>> the
>> reast you pay top dollar.
>>
>> Many of the MPLS open source products are developing, but its scary
>> endorsing a platform, that is not widely supported yet by several open
>> source router systems.
>> It locks you into a platform that may or may not ever get complete or 
>> work
>> 100% correctly.  I think OPENSOURCE MPLS is exciting to watch, but its 
>> not
>> quite there yet.
>>
>> Layer3 VPN is a great way to get your IP space to securly end up from one
>> side of your network to the other. This is benefical when someone has
>> chosen
>> a LAyer3 transport design, because itworks voer layer3 :-)
>>
>> If you chose a LAyer2 VLAN as a replacem

Re: [WISPA] VLan or VPN to multiple points

[Jeff Broadwick]

MPLS isn't one thing, it's a set of over 50 RFCs.  Most implementations
don't have all of them at this point.  When you look to implement MPLS, you
need to know which parts you need and then make sure that your provider
supports them.

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:46 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VLan or VPN to multiple points

Mikrotik supports MPLS.


--
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message -
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VLan or VPN to multiple points


> Ok.
>
> When someone designs an end to end  transport network they are committing 
> to
> being a layer3 or a layer2 network by design.
> Sure you can have bridged components on a routed network, and you can have
> routed end devices on a bridged network, and you can do it differently on
> your WAN, MAN, Last mile Relays.  But functionally all-in-all, your city
> transport that transposts the VPN is either are layer2 or layer3 network.
> This is what defines what VPN alternative you have to offer.
>
> One of the benefits I sell is Office to Office connectivity, BYPASSING the
> Public Internet, with a controlled On-Net path across my LAyer3 network.
> Adding the benefit of one connection to accomplish both Internet and 
> private
> network functionality.  This is both a QOS and Cost advantage, but all in
> all, I price it like Internet access, because its functionally routed like
> Internet traffic using Layer3.
>
> Its important to under stand the difference between Layer2 and Layer3 
> VLANs.
> LAyer3 generally offers shortest path, via the same rules that apply to 
> all
> customer's traffic.  Layer2 VLANs offer something different.  Layer2
> generally provides a static path (not necessarilly shortest path) 
> engineered
> between two points.  When at Layer2, a defines capacity can be 
> provisioned,
> without concern for distance and quality that might come into play to 
> effect
> real world throughput if had done at layer3 w/ native re-transmission and
> Congestion avoidence mechanisms.  There are many efficiency benefits of
> LAyer3, that will never be achieved at Layer2, and Layer2 offers many 
> things
> Layer 3 will never deliver.
>
> The point I'm making is, the provider needs to determine the factors that
> are most beneficial to them as a provider and their prospective market.
> Those decissions are so much more important than the type of VPN or VLAN
> used.  And that is what you are really comparing when comparing two
> providers' VPN Connectivity offerings.
>
> To offer basic VLAN redundancy it requires all paths to be connected at
> layer2 so the Spanning tree protocols talk and work.  But layer2 
> redundancy
> protocols can fuinctionally break LAyer3 redundancy (such as OSPF and 
> IBGP).
> So its really choosing one or the other.
>
> MPLS solves all this, by adding VPN, Layer2, QOS, preferred path, all in a
> single platform of protocols.  Sorta the best of both worlds (LAyer2 and
> LAyer3).
> The problem is MPLS is not cost effective to deploy in most cases, because
> the MPLS manufacturers charge to high an inflated markup on MPLS enabled
> gear. There is no technical reason why MPLS gear needs to cost more. But 
> it
> still does.  Its the difference between buying a new $20,000 MPLS router 
> and
> a used $500 thirdparty or used non-MPLS router. Sure there are exceptions
> all over the place to get a deal, but the whole network needs to talk MPLS
> for it to really be beneficial, so if you can't find 100% of it cheap, the
> reast you pay top dollar.
>
> Many of the MPLS open source products are developing, but its scary
> endorsing a platform, that is not widely supported yet by several open
> source router systems.
> It locks you into a platform that may or may not ever get complete or work
> 100% correctly.  I think OPENSOURCE MPLS is exciting to watch, but its not
> quite there yet.
>
> Layer3 VPN is a great way to get your IP space to securly end up from one
> side of your network to the other. This is benefical when someone has 
> chosen
> a LAyer3 transport design, because itworks voer layer3 :-)
>
> If you chose a LAyer2 VLAN as a replacement for VPN that is also OK, but 
> its
> a complete change of network design.
>
> We use VLAN all the time, but we route between VLANs, apposed to use the
> VLAN to cross our entire network as a VPN.
>
> Personally, if everything cost the same, my whole network would be MPLS
> based, but it doesn't cost the same.  And I can undercut my competitors on
> price by atleast a factor of 10x, because I'm not using MPLS.  So to do it
> with MPLS, you really have to be focused on marketing to the segment of 
> the
> population that udnerstands the difference and will pay for it.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Tom De

Re: [WISPA] VLan or VPN to multiple points

[Mike Hammett]

Mikrotik supports MPLS.


--
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VLan or VPN to multiple points


> Ok.
>
> When someone designs an end to end  transport network they are committing 
> to
> being a layer3 or a layer2 network by design.
> Sure you can have bridged components on a routed network, and you can have
> routed end devices on a bridged network, and you can do it differently on
> your WAN, MAN, Last mile Relays.  But functionally all-in-all, your city
> transport that transposts the VPN is either are layer2 or layer3 network.
> This is what defines what VPN alternative you have to offer.
>
> One of the benefits I sell is Office to Office connectivity, BYPASSING the
> Public Internet, with a controlled On-Net path across my LAyer3 network.
> Adding the benefit of one connection to accomplish both Internet and 
> private
> network functionality.  This is both a QOS and Cost advantage, but all in
> all, I price it like Internet access, because its functionally routed like
> Internet traffic using Layer3.
>
> Its important to under stand the difference between Layer2 and Layer3 
> VLANs.
> LAyer3 generally offers shortest path, via the same rules that apply to 
> all
> customer's traffic.  Layer2 VLANs offer something different.  Layer2
> generally provides a static path (not necessarilly shortest path) 
> engineered
> between two points.  When at Layer2, a defines capacity can be 
> provisioned,
> without concern for distance and quality that might come into play to 
> effect
> real world throughput if had done at layer3 w/ native re-transmission and
> Congestion avoidence mechanisms.  There are many efficiency benefits of
> LAyer3, that will never be achieved at Layer2, and Layer2 offers many 
> things
> Layer 3 will never deliver.
>
> The point I'm making is, the provider needs to determine the factors that
> are most beneficial to them as a provider and their prospective market.
> Those decissions are so much more important than the type of VPN or VLAN
> used.  And that is what you are really comparing when comparing two
> providers' VPN Connectivity offerings.
>
> To offer basic VLAN redundancy it requires all paths to be connected at
> layer2 so the Spanning tree protocols talk and work.  But layer2 
> redundancy
> protocols can fuinctionally break LAyer3 redundancy (such as OSPF and 
> IBGP).
> So its really choosing one or the other.
>
> MPLS solves all this, by adding VPN, Layer2, QOS, preferred path, all in a
> single platform of protocols.  Sorta the best of both worlds (LAyer2 and
> LAyer3).
> The problem is MPLS is not cost effective to deploy in most cases, because
> the MPLS manufacturers charge to high an inflated markup on MPLS enabled
> gear. There is no technical reason why MPLS gear needs to cost more. But 
> it
> still does.  Its the difference between buying a new $20,000 MPLS router 
> and
> a used $500 thirdparty or used non-MPLS router. Sure there are exceptions
> all over the place to get a deal, but the whole network needs to talk MPLS
> for it to really be beneficial, so if you can't find 100% of it cheap, the
> reast you pay top dollar.
>
> Many of the MPLS open source products are developing, but its scary
> endorsing a platform, that is not widely supported yet by several open
> source router systems.
> It locks you into a platform that may or may not ever get complete or work
> 100% correctly.  I think OPENSOURCE MPLS is exciting to watch, but its not
> quite there yet.
>
> Layer3 VPN is a great way to get your IP space to securly end up from one
> side of your network to the other. This is benefical when someone has 
> chosen
> a LAyer3 transport design, because itworks voer layer3 :-)
>
> If you chose a LAyer2 VLAN as a replacement for VPN that is also OK, but 
> its
> a complete change of network design.
>
> We use VLAN all the time, but we route between VLANs, apposed to use the
> VLAN to cross our entire network as a VPN.
>
> Personally, if everything cost the same, my whole network would be MPLS
> based, but it doesn't cost the same.  And I can undercut my competitors on
> price by atleast a factor of 10x, because I'm not using MPLS.  So to do it
> with MPLS, you really have to be focused on marketing to the segment of 
> the
> population that udnerstands the difference and will pay for it.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Patrick Nix Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VLan or VPN to multiple points
>
>
>> We already run some VPNs across our network but I am under the
>> impression that VLans may be a little more efficient way of transporting
>> data where the points all reside