Re: [WISPA] OT Hotmail email black hole
We block all port 25 on our residential network. It really cut down on this problem. We also don't allow simple passwords on our mail server. If it doesn't go through our mail server, it doesn't go. Here's a very handy de-listing site for various mail servers. http://www.streamsend.com/kb2/idx.php/0/002/article/ The hotmail one is slow to de-list, but if you follow those obfuscated instructions, you will get de-listed. Marco On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Bradley D. Thorntonbrad...@northtech.us wrote: Hi Ryan, I don't know if hotmail ranks as #1 anymore. I get a lot of trash from gmail nowadays ;) pls see additional comments below... Ryan Ghering wrote: We had to subscribe to the Smart Network Data Services Program. https://postmaster.live.com/snds/ Then follow the rules listed. I hated doing it but we actually started loosing customers due to not being able to send to the largest spam host in the world... As a result of abuses which more often than not occur from these anonymous and free email services funded by advertising blitzes and such, there is actually a very active movement tied to databases that block access from services such as hotmail or yahoo type addresses, including blocking all incoming SMTP traffic originating from these providers. I'm sure all of us have received SPAM from gmail, hotmail, yahoo, and a wealth of other so-called free email services, and these sort of, reverse RBL services are very effective in blocking emails from these providers - categorically. It's controversial, for obvious reasons, but no more than the controversy originally surrounding the regular RBL databases out there, and even ARIN, a couple of years ago, forced everyone to change their email addresses if they used a hotmail or some other free email service. These types of email accounts are dubbed, DEAs, or Disposable Email Addresses, and one plugin that I used quite successfully at one point for a client is located here for Joomla! sites with the Community Builder extension: http://interactiveonline.com/joomla/block-disposable-email-addresses If someone is serious about their online presence, aside from some conveniences of using an anonymous email provider service such as yahoo, hotmail, gmail, mail.com, etc., the suspicion that is raised by the recipient of someone sending through those services is often raised and one has to wonder why they don't brand themselves with their own company's domain name in their emails or for the average joe, why they don't just use their ISP's mail account provided to them by virtue of their subscription with the ISP. In certain applications, I too, block users of these services, especially with respect to registering for services I provide or websites that require user registration for access. I maintain a small database of the most popular DEAs and block them, adding new ones as they popup on my radar as hosting problematic bots and SPAMmers. Much of this has been alleviated now via the use of 'captcha' schemes, that bots can't readily read, yet one of the biggest problems of blocking DEAs is the irony that the same folks who are trying to avoid getting SPAMmed from bots and Pr0n people are also migrating toward DEAs to secure their privacy and avoid SPAM - or at least, so they can identify who sold their email alias to the SPAMmers ;) Here's a short list of services intended to empower and protect the user for these purposes, although SPAMmers love them too!: http://email.about.com/od/disposableemailservices/tp/disposable.htm Years ago we all ran open relays, there wasn't any discernible amount of SPAM. then SPAMmers started using open relays and nowadays we all configure our MTAs to just simply refuse mail from open relays. It's really a shame. Bottom line, if you're paying me for a service, I already have your credit card and address info so there's no reason to obfuscate your origin by using an anonymous email service. You can usually do it, since I don't block DEAs myself (yet) as a matter of standard practice, but it always seems to raise my eyebrow just a bit. About the only two things I use DEAs for personally, nowadays, are job search engines while I'm looking for new contracts and such, because that can generate a lot of traffic and also has the potential for getting your private address out there where it can be sold to SPAM databases. The other is a couple of pseudonyms I use when I have to go into a support forum and ask the very occasional extremely stupid question - coz I don't want people googling my name and seeing those questions on an email archive ten years from now LOL! There is intense (spelled w/all caps) pressure upon these DEA RBL services from the SPAM Community too, as these databases are perceived as a direct threat by the professional SPAMmers. One such service at http://undisposable.net doesn't seem to be operable anymore, the domain forwards
Re: [WISPA] OT Hotmail email black hole
Marlon, That is a weekly ordeal for ourselves. Customers that don't update Anti-virus or goto questionable sites get botnets that spam the world. Hotmail/MSN/LIVE is the first to block you. Getting off their blacklists is nearly impossible unless you follow thier rules even then it takes weeks. They have no postmaster contacts to speak of anymore. We had to subscribe to the Smart Network Data Services Program. https://postmaster.live.com/snds/ Then follow the rules listed. I hated doing it but we actually started loosing customers due to not being able to send to the largest spam host in the world... Sorry I can't be any better help just know that others feel your pain... Thanks Ryan On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: Hi All, Hotmail has put us on some kind of black list. Messages from my servers to anyone with a hotmail (or affiliate) address is being sent into oblivion. Contacting Hotmail has been nearly useless. They've simply told me to go join a special program that they have and that'll get my system ok'd again. Sorry, but I'm NOT giving them customer information or money in order to fix this. Does anyone know anyone that doesn't have his head up his wazzoo at that org? Anyone else been successful at getting off of the black list there? Thanks, marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] OT Hotmail email black hole
Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Contacting Hotmail has been nearly useless. They've simply told me to go join a special program that they have and that'll get my system ok'd again. Which one? They probably want you to sign up for Smart Network Data Services, which is free and has decent automated tools if you're into that sort of thing. If you're running all your email stuff in-house, it's a good idea to sign up for that, and AOL's Feedback Loop. The latter is prone to false-positives (basically any time an AOL user hits the spam button, you get notified, and it turns out many AOL users hit that button for literally every email they receive) but it can be a valuable tool. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] OT Hotmail email black hole
I think they confuse the delete button with the spam button over there at AOL. -Kevin On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 8:29 AM, David E. Smithd...@mvn.net wrote: Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Contacting Hotmail has been nearly useless. They've simply told me to go join a special program that they have and that'll get my system ok'd again. Which one? They probably want you to sign up for Smart Network Data Services, which is free and has decent automated tools if you're into that sort of thing. If you're running all your email stuff in-house, it's a good idea to sign up for that, and AOL's Feedback Loop. The latter is prone to false-positives (basically any time an AOL user hits the spam button, you get notified, and it turns out many AOL users hit that button for literally every email they receive) but it can be a valuable tool. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] OT Hotmail email black hole
OK, I held my nose and signed up. We'll see what happens. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Ryan Ghering rgher...@gmail.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] OT Hotmail email black hole Marlon, That is a weekly ordeal for ourselves. Customers that don't update Anti-virus or goto questionable sites get botnets that spam the world. Hotmail/MSN/LIVE is the first to block you. Getting off their blacklists is nearly impossible unless you follow thier rules even then it takes weeks. They have no postmaster contacts to speak of anymore. We had to subscribe to the Smart Network Data Services Program. https://postmaster.live.com/snds/ Then follow the rules listed. I hated doing it but we actually started loosing customers due to not being able to send to the largest spam host in the world... Sorry I can't be any better help just know that others feel your pain... Thanks Ryan On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: Hi All, Hotmail has put us on some kind of black list. Messages from my servers to anyone with a hotmail (or affiliate) address is being sent into oblivion. Contacting Hotmail has been nearly useless. They've simply told me to go join a special program that they have and that'll get my system ok'd again. Sorry, but I'm NOT giving them customer information or money in order to fix this. Does anyone know anyone that doesn't have his head up his wazzoo at that org? Anyone else been successful at getting off of the black list there? Thanks, marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] OT Hotmail email black hole
I just did the snds signup. What a joke though. We're an ISP, it's easy to see that. We don't do spam unless a customer gets a virus or something like it, that's also easy to see. sigh marlon - Original Message - From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] OT Hotmail email black hole Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Contacting Hotmail has been nearly useless. They've simply told me to go join a special program that they have and that'll get my system ok'd again. Which one? They probably want you to sign up for Smart Network Data Services, which is free and has decent automated tools if you're into that sort of thing. If you're running all your email stuff in-house, it's a good idea to sign up for that, and AOL's Feedback Loop. The latter is prone to false-positives (basically any time an AOL user hits the spam button, you get notified, and it turns out many AOL users hit that button for literally every email they receive) but it can be a valuable tool. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] OT Hotmail email black hole
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 09:23:56AM -0700, Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I just did the snds signup. What a joke though. We're an ISP, it's easy to see that. We don't do spam unless a customer gets a virus or something like it, that's also easy to see. Easy for a human to see. Not so easy for an automated computer program. As far as I could tell, the people answering the abuse desk e-mails over there are software. Sign up for all the feedback loops you can and read the mail that comes in from them as often as possible. Blocking a compromised account in 1 to 4 hours is much better than 48 hours in terms of keeping you off the blacklists. In one hour, hotmail probably sees more spam from your one compromised account than they normaly see from your mail server in a month. That is what gets you listed, automatically. -- Scott LambertKC5MLE Unix SysAdmin lamb...@lambertfam.org WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] OT Hotmail email black hole
Can you give more detail as to what requirements were placed on you? With more details I might be able to help you. I was tier-4 at MSN/Hotmail/Passport for a bit. (these services are now called Live, or Bing, or whatever they call them this week!) ryan Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, Hotmail has put us on some kind of black list. Messages from my servers to anyone with a hotmail (or affiliate) address is being sent into oblivion. Contacting Hotmail has been nearly useless. They've simply told me to go join a special program that they have and that'll get my system ok'd again. Sorry, but I'm NOT giving them customer information or money in order to fix this. Does anyone know anyone that doesn't have his head up his wazzoo at that org? Anyone else been successful at getting off of the black list there? Thanks, marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] OT Hotmail email black hole
Hi Ryan, I don't know if hotmail ranks as #1 anymore. I get a lot of trash from gmail nowadays ;) pls see additional comments below... Ryan Ghering wrote: We had to subscribe to the Smart Network Data Services Program. https://postmaster.live.com/snds/ Then follow the rules listed. I hated doing it but we actually started loosing customers due to not being able to send to the largest spam host in the world... As a result of abuses which more often than not occur from these anonymous and free email services funded by advertising blitzes and such, there is actually a very active movement tied to databases that block access from services such as hotmail or yahoo type addresses, including blocking all incoming SMTP traffic originating from these providers. I'm sure all of us have received SPAM from gmail, hotmail, yahoo, and a wealth of other so-called free email services, and these sort of, reverse RBL services are very effective in blocking emails from these providers - categorically. It's controversial, for obvious reasons, but no more than the controversy originally surrounding the regular RBL databases out there, and even ARIN, a couple of years ago, forced everyone to change their email addresses if they used a hotmail or some other free email service. These types of email accounts are dubbed, DEAs, or Disposable Email Addresses, and one plugin that I used quite successfully at one point for a client is located here for Joomla! sites with the Community Builder extension: http://interactiveonline.com/joomla/block-disposable-email-addresses If someone is serious about their online presence, aside from some conveniences of using an anonymous email provider service such as yahoo, hotmail, gmail, mail.com, etc., the suspicion that is raised by the recipient of someone sending through those services is often raised and one has to wonder why they don't brand themselves with their own company's domain name in their emails or for the average joe, why they don't just use their ISP's mail account provided to them by virtue of their subscription with the ISP. In certain applications, I too, block users of these services, especially with respect to registering for services I provide or websites that require user registration for access. I maintain a small database of the most popular DEAs and block them, adding new ones as they popup on my radar as hosting problematic bots and SPAMmers. Much of this has been alleviated now via the use of 'captcha' schemes, that bots can't readily read, yet one of the biggest problems of blocking DEAs is the irony that the same folks who are trying to avoid getting SPAMmed from bots and Pr0n people are also migrating toward DEAs to secure their privacy and avoid SPAM - or at least, so they can identify who sold their email alias to the SPAMmers ;) Here's a short list of services intended to empower and protect the user for these purposes, although SPAMmers love them too!: http://email.about.com/od/disposableemailservices/tp/disposable.htm Years ago we all ran open relays, there wasn't any discernible amount of SPAM. then SPAMmers started using open relays and nowadays we all configure our MTAs to just simply refuse mail from open relays. It's really a shame. Bottom line, if you're paying me for a service, I already have your credit card and address info so there's no reason to obfuscate your origin by using an anonymous email service. You can usually do it, since I don't block DEAs myself (yet) as a matter of standard practice, but it always seems to raise my eyebrow just a bit. About the only two things I use DEAs for personally, nowadays, are job search engines while I'm looking for new contracts and such, because that can generate a lot of traffic and also has the potential for getting your private address out there where it can be sold to SPAM databases. The other is a couple of pseudonyms I use when I have to go into a support forum and ask the very occasional extremely stupid question - coz I don't want people googling my name and seeing those questions on an email archive ten years from now LOL! There is intense (spelled w/all caps) pressure upon these DEA RBL services from the SPAM Community too, as these databases are perceived as a direct threat by the professional SPAMmers. One such service at http://undisposable.net doesn't seem to be operable anymore, the domain forwards somewhere else. But when an RIR such as ARIN.net refuses DEAs, it's a sign of security issues extending beyond simple SPAM related matters. I'm not really 'quick' to block someone, but it is much easier to simply block a /11 or /16 from some remote ISP on the other side of the planet where I'm not seeking business than to go through todays n00bie admins who don't understand that the Tech Contact record in WHOIS, or the address ab...@sld.tld is meant to accept incoming requests from other admins who are being scanned,
[WISPA] OT Hotmail email black hole
Hi All, Hotmail has put us on some kind of black list. Messages from my servers to anyone with a hotmail (or affiliate) address is being sent into oblivion. Contacting Hotmail has been nearly useless. They've simply told me to go join a special program that they have and that'll get my system ok'd again. Sorry, but I'm NOT giving them customer information or money in order to fix this. Does anyone know anyone that doesn't have his head up his wazzoo at that org? Anyone else been successful at getting off of the black list there? Thanks, marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
