Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
It has an adaptive mode which does both. Mark From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity Dual polarity as in you are horizontal and vertical. Or as in the nano will do either polarity? As far as I know the nano does either (software switchable) not both. But, it would not be the first time I was wrong. Brian Charles Wyble wrote: The NS2 is dual polarity. Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as clients. So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real world indication of AP selection and coverage area. Tom DeReggi wrote: well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of polarity. Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wyble char...@thewybles.com mailto:char...@thewybles.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an entire strip mall. Google earth it: 229 Main Street El Segundo, CA 90245 is where I deployed the AP. It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus across the street in all 4 directions. Tom DeReggi wrote: Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens
[WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test Tom DeReggi wrote: Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, from what it sounds like. I guess that should be clarified Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them? You would think there would be even more self interference with high gain antennas than with no antennas WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an entire strip mall. Google earth it: 229 Main Street El Segundo, CA 90245 is where I deployed the AP. It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus across the street in all 4 directions. Tom DeReggi wrote: Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test Tom DeReggi wrote: Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, from what it sounds like. I guess that should be clarified Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them? You would think there would be even more self interference with high gain antennas than with no antennas WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
Oh, and in response to question #5, our typical hotspot users, I guess really all of our users, barely know how to get signed on, much less have any clue about antenna polarity. We get the rare one that is very savvy on this, but for the most part, our users are still pretty much in the dark as to differences in polarity, technologies, etc etc. All they know is whether or not they can sign on, and if they can get on, what speeds they are getting, how fast they get their email, and how reliable their gaming and video is :-) -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test Tom DeReggi wrote: Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, from what it sounds like. I guess that should be clarified Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them? You would think there would be even more self interference with high gain antennas than with no antennas WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of polarity. Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wyble char...@thewybles.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an entire strip mall. Google earth it: 229 Main Street El Segundo, CA 90245 is where I deployed the AP. It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus across the street in all 4 directions. Tom DeReggi wrote: Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test Tom DeReggi wrote: Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, from what it sounds like. I guess that should be clarified Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them? You would think there would be even more self interference with high gain antennas than with no antennas WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
The NS2 is dual polarity. Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as clients. So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real world indication of AP selection and coverage area. Tom DeReggi wrote: well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of polarity. Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wyble char...@thewybles.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an entire strip mall. Google earth it: 229 Main Street El Segundo, CA 90245 is where I deployed the AP. It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus across the street in all 4 directions. Tom DeReggi wrote: Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test Tom DeReggi wrote: Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, from what it sounds like. I guess that should be clarified Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them? You would think there would be even more self interference with high gain antennas than with no antennas WISPA Wants You! Join
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
The NS2 can be set to V-pol, H-pol or Adaptive. Charles Wyble wrote: The NS2 is dual polarity. Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as clients. So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real world indication of AP selection and coverage area. Tom DeReggi wrote: well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of polarity. Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wyble" char...@thewybles.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an entire strip mall. Google earth it: 229 Main Street El Segundo, CA 90245 is where I deployed the AP. It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus across the street in all 4 directions. Tom DeReggi wrote: Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" wi...@oregonfast.net To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test Tom DeReggi wrote: Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, from what it sounds like. I guess that should be clarified Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them? You would think there would
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
Dual polarity as in you are horizontal and vertical. Or as in the nano will do either polarity? As far as I know the nano does either (software switchable) not both. But, it would not be the first time I was wrong. Brian Charles Wyble wrote: The NS2 is dual polarity. Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as clients. So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real world indication of AP selection and coverage area. Tom DeReggi wrote: well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of polarity. Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wyble" char...@thewybles.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an entire strip mall. Google earth it: 229 Main Street El Segundo, CA 90245 is where I deployed the AP. It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus across the street in all 4 directions. Tom DeReggi wrote: Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" wi...@oregonfast.net To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test Tom DeReggi wrote: Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, from what it sounds like. I guess that should be clarified Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close proximi
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
I was using default settings. I'll login to it and look later today and let you guys know. Brian Rohrbacher wrote: Dual polarity as in you are horizontal and vertical. Or as in the nano will do either polarity? As far as I know the nano does either (software switchable) not both. But, it would not be the first time I was wrong. Brian Charles Wyble wrote: The NS2 is dual polarity. Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as clients. So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real world indication of AP selection and coverage area. Tom DeReggi wrote: well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of polarity. Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wyble char...@thewybles.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an entire strip mall. Google earth it: 229 Main Street El Segundo, CA 90245 is where I deployed the AP. It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus across the street in all 4 directions. Tom DeReggi wrote: Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test Tom DeReggi wrote: Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, from what it sounds like. I guess that should be clarified Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
