Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News
Level3 leaves out little details like... 1> Of course Cogent won't notify their customers, while still in negotiation, it would cause the loss of customers, possibly for no reason, if an agreement was made. 2> Level3 does not disclose any information why they feel Cogent was getting a free ride on Level3 in stead of vice versa. Level3 claims they have a cost to take the data. But they leave out Cogent is a long haul carrier of data, and the majority of my traceroutes stay on the Cogent network for much longer distances for top performance and low latency. This is because Cogent has lots of free unused bandwidth, and has no reason to offload it to Level3, except when it is time to reach the Level3 customers. I can't prove who was abusing peering. But Jsut because Level3 make a claim of what was and wasn't fair doesn't make that perception true. Its also possible that Level3 over values its network and under values Cogent's value. The truth is Level3 doesn't have as much capacity as Cogent or as good a performing network, so it hurts Level3 to give access to its network. Cogent often takes the bum rap, because they are the low ball in town, but that doesn't make them an abuser. I'm just saying, no prove has been provided that Cogent was abusing its peering relationship. Cogent has little motive to need to. Theres an easy way to inforce someone abusing a peering arangement. Its called bandwdith management. Its called hard setting the amount of traffic that can go in each direction. To equalize a peering agreement, doesn't require a party to cancel a peering agreement. The fact is they don't like comnpanies like Cogent that lowers the value of bandwidth, and gives consumers good deals, and makes it harder for Level3 to charge a premium. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Frank Muto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News Level 3 Issues Ultimatum Restores connectivity to Cogent until Nov 9 Posted 2005-10-07 19:15:54 After restoring connectivity to Cogent this afternoon, Level 3 has now issued a press release (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/68244) explaining their side of the story (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051007/laf057.html?.v=17). "Despite more than 75 days of advance written notice of the termination of our agreement, Cogent apparently failed to notify its customers or make any business plans to prepare for disconnection," notes Sureel Choksi, executive vice president of Level 3 Communications. The restored peering arrangement won't last if Cogent isn't willing to negotiate, however. "Level 3 has, effective immediately, re-established a free connection to Cogent. In order to allow Internet users to make alternative arrangements, we will maintain this connection until 6:00 a.m. ET, November 9, 2005. The effectiveness of this arrangement of course depends on Cogent's willingness to maintain their side of the traffic exchange." Frank Muto Co-founder - Washington Bureau for ISP Advocacy - WBIA Telecom Summit Ad Hoc Committee http://gigabytemarch.blog.com/ www.wbia.us -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/123 - Release Date: 10/6/2005 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News
Level3 did it to themselves, Cogent customers didn't have the option to hear Level 3's side of the story because LEVEL3 blocked us access from reading their side, like idiots. They instead could have did port redirection to pass our traffic to their web site our something. Regardless of what anyone says, LEVEL3 could have handled this situation by simply cutting off the pipe that was used for peering, but that is not what they did. They weren't accepting route advertisements for Cogent IPs. We could send data through diverse paths (other peers / ISPs), the packets just never came back. LEVEL3 didn't block peering pipes, they blocked routing info, in other words Cogent users. Cogent wasn't technically capable to re-route our data becaue LEvel3's actions. People leave out those little details of relavence, because they can't prove it legally. But it is what happened. In my mind Level3 stinks bad in this battle, because how they fought dirty. It had nothing to do with who was actually at faught regarding whether Cogent should have free peering or not. However, Level3 atleast did the honorable thing and will be restoring service long enough for us to take action to add peers. But in my mind they should have made that decission two days ago, before all the damage was done to innocent providers and businesses such as MINE. We can sit behind the scenes as individuals educated on the matter, and point fingers at LEvel3 or Cogent. But in my customer's eyes the ONLY one responsible is ME. I got a black eye on this, that will stay for some time, and I blaim Level3. There actions were heartless on who it would effect. In my mind, Level3 was inches away from serious law sutes. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Frank Muto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News Level 3 Issues Ultimatum Restores connectivity to Cogent until Nov 9 Posted 2005-10-07 19:15:54 After restoring connectivity to Cogent this afternoon, Level 3 has now issued a press release (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/68244) explaining their side of the story (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051007/laf057.html?.v=17). "Despite more than 75 days of advance written notice of the termination of our agreement, Cogent apparently failed to notify its customers or make any business plans to prepare for disconnection," notes Sureel Choksi, executive vice president of Level 3 Communications. The restored peering arrangement won't last if Cogent isn't willing to negotiate, however. "Level 3 has, effective immediately, re-established a free connection to Cogent. In order to allow Internet users to make alternative arrangements, we will maintain this connection until 6:00 a.m. ET, November 9, 2005. The effectiveness of this arrangement of course depends on Cogent's willingness to maintain their side of the traffic exchange." Frank Muto Co-founder - Washington Bureau for ISP Advocacy - WBIA Telecom Summit Ad Hoc Committee http://gigabytemarch.blog.com/ www.wbia.us -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/123 - Release Date: 10/6/2005 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News
With all that being said, Cogent's routes pretty much suck in comparison to the other tier-1s. Being multi-homed certainly gives you a better performing network. Additionally, you might look into peering at an exchange. We are connected to the Atlanta Internet Exchange allowing us to peer with many companies for free. -Matt Tom DeReggi wrote: Only thing... A big company has a lot more leverage to control fair play with IPs than you as a small provider. When you own your own block, its real easy for a competitor (large monopoly) to block your IPs without hesitation. Much more thought goes into wether they will block IPs by a large power like Cogent. So there are disadvantages as well as benefits of owning your own IPs. The same applies to peering. Do you think any of us small ISPs will have any leverage at all to negotiate fair peering? Large companies like Cogent have the leverage to be able to negotiate peers with other large palyers like Level3. Level3 didn't restore connections just to be a nice guy to the end users. They did it because they were loosing business fast as well. Because Cogent was large enough to have that impact. I'm now going to be doing BGP and Multi-homing because this insodent, and for a PR perspective, I look more responsive to my customer because of it. But the reality is, I'm not sure it puts us up with that much of an advantage. The day, a LEVEL3 wants to block your traffic, you won't have the leverage to get them to re-open it. What cogent did was to get us better rates. Cogent pays, indirectly we pay. I support Cogents stance. I do not support however that they did not give us notice to prepair for the situation. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News I hope everyone takes this opportunity to become multi-homed if you are not already. In our case, we were already multi-homed, but all of our IPs were allocated by Cogent simply because it was the cheapest place to get them. During this mesh we learn that our IPs were in some cases being null routed. As such, we have started the process of ordering our own IP block from ARIN and have asked Cogent to assign our existing IPs to us. -Matt Frank Muto wrote: Level 3 Issues Ultimatum Restores connectivity to Cogent until Nov 9 Posted 2005-10-07 19:15:54 After restoring connectivity to Cogent this afternoon, Level 3 has now issued a press release (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/68244) explaining their side of the story (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051007/laf057.html?.v=17). "Despite more than 75 days of advance written notice of the termination of our agreement, Cogent apparently failed to notify its customers or make any business plans to prepare for disconnection," notes Sureel Choksi, executive vice president of Level 3 Communications. The restored peering arrangement won't last if Cogent isn't willing to negotiate, however. "Level 3 has, effective immediately, re-established a free connection to Cogent. In order to allow Internet users to make alternative arrangements, we will maintain this connection until 6:00 a.m. ET, November 9, 2005. The effectiveness of this arrangement of course depends on Cogent's willingness to maintain their side of the traffic exchange." Frank Muto Co-founder - Washington Bureau for ISP Advocacy - WBIA Telecom Summit Ad Hoc Committee http://gigabytemarch.blog.com/ www.wbia.us -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/123 - Release Date: 10/6/2005 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News
Only thing... A big company has a lot more leverage to control fair play with IPs than you as a small provider. When you own your own block, its real easy for a competitor (large monopoly) to block your IPs without hesitation. Much more thought goes into wether they will block IPs by a large power like Cogent. So there are disadvantages as well as benefits of owning your own IPs. The same applies to peering. Do you think any of us small ISPs will have any leverage at all to negotiate fair peering? Large companies like Cogent have the leverage to be able to negotiate peers with other large palyers like Level3. Level3 didn't restore connections just to be a nice guy to the end users. They did it because they were loosing business fast as well. Because Cogent was large enough to have that impact. I'm now going to be doing BGP and Multi-homing because this insodent, and for a PR perspective, I look more responsive to my customer because of it. But the reality is, I'm not sure it puts us up with that much of an advantage. The day, a LEVEL3 wants to block your traffic, you won't have the leverage to get them to re-open it. What cogent did was to get us better rates. Cogent pays, indirectly we pay. I support Cogents stance. I do not support however that they did not give us notice to prepair for the situation. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News I hope everyone takes this opportunity to become multi-homed if you are not already. In our case, we were already multi-homed, but all of our IPs were allocated by Cogent simply because it was the cheapest place to get them. During this mesh we learn that our IPs were in some cases being null routed. As such, we have started the process of ordering our own IP block from ARIN and have asked Cogent to assign our existing IPs to us. -Matt Frank Muto wrote: Level 3 Issues Ultimatum Restores connectivity to Cogent until Nov 9 Posted 2005-10-07 19:15:54 After restoring connectivity to Cogent this afternoon, Level 3 has now issued a press release (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/68244) explaining their side of the story (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051007/laf057.html?.v=17). "Despite more than 75 days of advance written notice of the termination of our agreement, Cogent apparently failed to notify its customers or make any business plans to prepare for disconnection," notes Sureel Choksi, executive vice president of Level 3 Communications. The restored peering arrangement won't last if Cogent isn't willing to negotiate, however. "Level 3 has, effective immediately, re-established a free connection to Cogent. In order to allow Internet users to make alternative arrangements, we will maintain this connection until 6:00 a.m. ET, November 9, 2005. The effectiveness of this arrangement of course depends on Cogent's willingness to maintain their side of the traffic exchange." Frank Muto Co-founder - Washington Bureau for ISP Advocacy - WBIA Telecom Summit Ad Hoc Committee http://gigabytemarch.blog.com/ www.wbia.us -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/123 - Release Date: 10/6/2005 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News
Here in ohio we got nailed by this. Verizon, SBC, Time Warner, just to name a few. I think Im going to get a backup DSL through Sprint since they were not affected by this here in ohio. Bo Matt Liotta wrote: I hope everyone takes this opportunity to become multi-homed if you are not already. In our case, we were already multi-homed, but all of our IPs were allocated by Cogent simply because it was the cheapest place to get them. During this mesh we learn that our IPs were in some cases being null routed. As such, we have started the process of ordering our own IP block from ARIN and have asked Cogent to assign our existing IPs to us. -Matt Frank Muto wrote: Level 3 Issues Ultimatum Restores connectivity to Cogent until Nov 9 Posted 2005-10-07 19:15:54 After restoring connectivity to Cogent this afternoon, Level 3 has now issued a press release (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/68244) explaining their side of the story (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051007/laf057.html?.v=17). "Despite more than 75 days of advance written notice of the termination of our agreement, Cogent apparently failed to notify its customers or make any business plans to prepare for disconnection," notes Sureel Choksi, executive vice president of Level 3 Communications. The restored peering arrangement won't last if Cogent isn't willing to negotiate, however. "Level 3 has, effective immediately, re-established a free connection to Cogent. In order to allow Internet users to make alternative arrangements, we will maintain this connection until 6:00 a.m. ET, November 9, 2005. The effectiveness of this arrangement of course depends on Cogent's willingness to maintain their side of the traffic exchange." Frank Muto Co-founder - Washington Bureau for ISP Advocacy - WBIA Telecom Summit Ad Hoc Committee http://gigabytemarch.blog.com/ www.wbia.us -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News
I hope everyone takes this opportunity to become multi-homed if you are not already. In our case, we were already multi-homed, but all of our IPs were allocated by Cogent simply because it was the cheapest place to get them. During this mesh we learn that our IPs were in some cases being null routed. As such, we have started the process of ordering our own IP block from ARIN and have asked Cogent to assign our existing IPs to us. -Matt Frank Muto wrote: Level 3 Issues Ultimatum Restores connectivity to Cogent until Nov 9 Posted 2005-10-07 19:15:54 After restoring connectivity to Cogent this afternoon, Level 3 has now issued a press release (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/68244) explaining their side of the story (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051007/laf057.html?.v=17). "Despite more than 75 days of advance written notice of the termination of our agreement, Cogent apparently failed to notify its customers or make any business plans to prepare for disconnection," notes Sureel Choksi, executive vice president of Level 3 Communications. The restored peering arrangement won't last if Cogent isn't willing to negotiate, however. "Level 3 has, effective immediately, re-established a free connection to Cogent. In order to allow Internet users to make alternative arrangements, we will maintain this connection until 6:00 a.m. ET, November 9, 2005. The effectiveness of this arrangement of course depends on Cogent's willingness to maintain their side of the traffic exchange." Frank Muto Co-founder - Washington Bureau for ISP Advocacy - WBIA Telecom Summit Ad Hoc Committee http://gigabytemarch.blog.com/ www.wbia.us -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News
Level 3 Issues Ultimatum Restores connectivity to Cogent until Nov 9 Posted 2005-10-07 19:15:54 After restoring connectivity to Cogent this afternoon, Level 3 has now issued a press release (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/68244) explaining their side of the story (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051007/laf057.html?.v=17). "Despite more than 75 days of advance written notice of the termination of our agreement, Cogent apparently failed to notify its customers or make any business plans to prepare for disconnection," notes Sureel Choksi, executive vice president of Level 3 Communications. The restored peering arrangement won't last if Cogent isn't willing to negotiate, however. "Level 3 has, effective immediately, re-established a free connection to Cogent. In order to allow Internet users to make alternative arrangements, we will maintain this connection until 6:00 a.m. ET, November 9, 2005. The effectiveness of this arrangement of course depends on Cogent's willingness to maintain their side of the traffic exchange." Frank Muto Co-founder - Washington Bureau for ISP Advocacy - WBIA Telecom Summit Ad Hoc Committee http://gigabytemarch.blog.com/ www.wbia.us -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
