Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] High-Density Lecture Halls

[Samuel Clements]

For what it's worth, I echo many of the sentiments previously stated. In my
book, your Wi-Fi design should encompass all things Wi-Fi including
capacity, RF aspects, placement/mounting, and capacity planning. If the
manufacturer, capabilities, architecture, and density questions are being
asked *after* your site survey, what assumptions did the designer make?
Wi-Fi design and site surveys are not disconnected functions - they are
tightly integrated and highly dependent functions of a network
implementation and no two vendors infrastructure gear are 100%
interchangeable. In short, all of the things you're asking about should
have been described to you as assumptions for your design or they should
have been asked by the designer doing the site survey prior to them
starting.

Design what you install, install what you design.
  -Sam

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Hunter Fuller  wrote:

> Echoing Lee - Your co channel issues are not surprising. Our 300 seat
> lecture hall sees 500 clients during a typical class. We have two 2GHz
> radios and four 5GHz radios active in this environment. Can you turn off /
> remove some radios?
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 09:35 Zoltan Toth  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Thanks for your response.
>>
>>
>> We are currently running our Wi-Fi environment on HP 860 Wi-Fi Controller
>> configured for high availability failover, with approx. 92 access points of
>> the model HP 460 and 466 and 560 spread across the campus. The campus is
>> separated into 3 floors with 3 high density areas namely lecture hall 1
>> with a seating capacity of 250 with about 400 connections (10 model 560
>> APs) and lecture hall 2 with a seating capacity of 197 (6 model 560 APs)
>> and a general hall with seating capacity for 200 (4 model 466APs). We have
>> a 10 GB backbone an all switches and a 500MB internet connection. We are
>> running PRTG to monitor the bandwidth consumption at the backbone and
>> internet level and do not see any bottlenecks.
>>
>>
>> We have conducted a Wi-Fi survey and have their report which mentioned
>> co-channel interference in the 2.4Ghz band. According to the survey the
>> Wi-Fi signal coverage seems to be present in most of the campus areas.
>>
>> In order to minimize the co-channel interference, we have implemented the
>> following:
>>
>> 1- Removed 40 Mhz and 80 MHz bandwidth modes and set everything to 20 Mhz.
>> 2- Removed G on all our access points.
>> 3- Implemented band steering.
>> 4- We are now in the process of manually adjusting the 2.4 Ghz channels
>> on each AP so the neighboring APs do not have the same channel. In some
>> cases, we turn off the 2.4 Ghz completely.
>>
>>
>> Would you please comment on the following?
>>
>> 1- With the current hardware that we have is it advisable to proceed on
>> this route and configure the 2.4 Ghz manually?
>> 2- Should we completely disable 2.4 Ghz support? Is it a norm for high
>> density areas?
>> 3- Should we look to change hardware/ or vendor in order to have a
>> seamless environment. Should we just limit the change to the high density
>> areas or should we just change it overall.
>> 4- Is a single channel solution for the lecture halls advisable? Have you
>> experience a mix of single/multi-channel environment? How do they perform?
>>
>> Zoltan
>> __
>> Zoltan Toth - Manager, IT Infrastructure
>> Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2016-11-18, 11:11 AM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group
>> Listserv on behalf of Lee H Badman" > on behalf of lhbad...@syr.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >Hi Zoltan,
>> >
>> >I'm assuming you're asking about wireless infrastructure and not client
>> devices? If so, I would say it's more about proper design than any
>> different technology.
>> >
>> >Also assuming that the lecture halls are in the mix with adjacent areas
>> that also part of the overall WLAN environment, you're generally limited to
>> what your current vendor (and code) support as opposed to trying to run
>> islands of different technology from Vendor B in the middle of Vendor A
>> WLAN.
>> >
>> >Which brings us back to design. In a perfect world, you'd have some
>> sense of what type of client devices are likely to be in those rooms, how
>> many active at a time, and what they might be doing. For modern APs, you
>> might service 200-300 "people" with 2-3 APs with captive antennas spaced
>> and oriented properly (depending on room layout), or you may need double
>> that with extremely low power and directional antennas.
>> >
>> >So... the answer is "it depends", as with all things wireless.
>> >
>> >Regards-
>> >
>> >Lee
>> >
>> >Lee Badman | CWNE #200 | Network Architect
>> >
>> >Information Technology Services
>> >206 Machinery Hall
>> >120 Smith Drive
>> >Syracuse, New York 13244
>> >t 315.443.3003   f 315.443.4325   e lhbad...@syr.edu w its.syr.edu
>> >SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
>> >syr.edu
>> >
>> 

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] High-Density Lecture Halls

[Hunter Fuller]

Echoing Lee - Your co channel issues are not surprising. Our 300 seat
lecture hall sees 500 clients during a typical class. We have two 2GHz
radios and four 5GHz radios active in this environment. Can you turn off /
remove some radios?

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 09:35 Zoltan Toth  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Thanks for your response.
>
>
> We are currently running our Wi-Fi environment on HP 860 Wi-Fi Controller
> configured for high availability failover, with approx. 92 access points of
> the model HP 460 and 466 and 560 spread across the campus. The campus is
> separated into 3 floors with 3 high density areas namely lecture hall 1
> with a seating capacity of 250 with about 400 connections (10 model 560
> APs) and lecture hall 2 with a seating capacity of 197 (6 model 560 APs)
> and a general hall with seating capacity for 200 (4 model 466APs). We have
> a 10 GB backbone an all switches and a 500MB internet connection. We are
> running PRTG to monitor the bandwidth consumption at the backbone and
> internet level and do not see any bottlenecks.
>
>
> We have conducted a Wi-Fi survey and have their report which mentioned
> co-channel interference in the 2.4Ghz band. According to the survey the
> Wi-Fi signal coverage seems to be present in most of the campus areas.
>
> In order to minimize the co-channel interference, we have implemented the
> following:
>
> 1- Removed 40 Mhz and 80 MHz bandwidth modes and set everything to 20 Mhz.
> 2- Removed G on all our access points.
> 3- Implemented band steering.
> 4- We are now in the process of manually adjusting the 2.4 Ghz channels on
> each AP so the neighboring APs do not have the same channel. In some cases,
> we turn off the 2.4 Ghz completely.
>
>
> Would you please comment on the following?
>
> 1- With the current hardware that we have is it advisable to proceed on
> this route and configure the 2.4 Ghz manually?
> 2- Should we completely disable 2.4 Ghz support? Is it a norm for high
> density areas?
> 3- Should we look to change hardware/ or vendor in order to have a
> seamless environment. Should we just limit the change to the high density
> areas or should we just change it overall.
> 4- Is a single channel solution for the lecture halls advisable? Have you
> experience a mix of single/multi-channel environment? How do they perform?
>
> Zoltan
> __
> Zoltan Toth - Manager, IT Infrastructure
> Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2016-11-18, 11:11 AM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group
> Listserv on behalf of Lee H Badman"  on behalf of lhbad...@syr.edu> wrote:
>
> >Hi Zoltan,
> >
> >I'm assuming you're asking about wireless infrastructure and not client
> devices? If so, I would say it's more about proper design than any
> different technology.
> >
> >Also assuming that the lecture halls are in the mix with adjacent areas
> that also part of the overall WLAN environment, you're generally limited to
> what your current vendor (and code) support as opposed to trying to run
> islands of different technology from Vendor B in the middle of Vendor A
> WLAN.
> >
> >Which brings us back to design. In a perfect world, you'd have some sense
> of what type of client devices are likely to be in those rooms, how many
> active at a time, and what they might be doing. For modern APs, you might
> service 200-300 "people" with 2-3 APs with captive antennas spaced and
> oriented properly (depending on room layout), or you may need double that
> with extremely low power and directional antennas.
> >
> >So... the answer is "it depends", as with all things wireless.
> >
> >Regards-
> >
> >Lee
> >
> >Lee Badman | CWNE #200 | Network Architect
> >
> >Information Technology Services
> >206 Machinery Hall
> >120 Smith Drive
> >Syracuse, New York 13244
> >t 315.443.3003   f 315.443.4325   e lhbad...@syr.edu w its.syr.edu
> >SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
> >syr.edu
> >
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:
> WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Zoltan Toth
> >Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 9:47 AM
> >To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> >Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] High-Density Lecture Halls
> >
> >What technologies do you use for high density areas like Lecture Halls
> for about 200-300 people?
> >
> >__
> >Zoltan Toth - Manager, IT Infrastructure
> >Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College
> >
> >
> >This communication together with any attachments is for the exclusive and
> confidential use of the addressee(s). Any other distribution, use or
> reproduction without the sender’s prior consent is unauthorized and
> strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please
> notify the sender immediately and delete or shred the message without
> making any copies.
> >
> >**
> >Participation and subscription information for this 

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] High-Density Lecture Halls

[Lee H Badman]

Zolton,

I have to ask- is what you in place the result of a legitimate design and some 
definition of requirements? If anything, you have a pretty sizeable 
overabundance of APs in the lecture halls. Since you're asking, I'll give my 
opinion, qualifying that it might change (slightly) if I could actually see the 
spaces or hear what clients are actually doing when connected. You didn't 
mention whether these are ceiling or wall mount, which also comes into play. 
But regardless, here's what I think is causing you issues, fundamentally:

Lecture Hall 1: for 250 users/400 expected connections, 10 APs *sounds* absurd. 
These are dual-band APs, and you are going to have clients half and half on 2.4 
GHz and 5 GHz (+/- 15%) which means you have 20 cells in one room, not counting 
what bleeds in from adjacent spaces. You probably could service this space with 
three 2.4 GHz cells, and between three-five 5 GHz cells (and some on the list 
would still say that's overkill). 

Other two lecture rooms- same thing. No more than three in 2.4 GHz, 3-4 in 5 
GHz.

On to your other stuff:

In order to minimize the co-channel interference, we have implemented the 
following:

1- Removed 40 Mhz and 80 MHz bandwidth modes and set everything to 20 Mhz. 
EXCELLENT
2- Removed G on all our access points. HELPFUL, BUT NOT YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM
3- Implemented band steering. REMEMBER, NOT ALL CLIENTS WILL RESPOND SAME WAY. 
BEST TO HAVE HEALTHY RF FIRST.
4- We are now in the process of manually adjusting the 2.4 Ghz channels on each 
AP so the neighboring APs do not have the same channel. In some cases, we turn 
off the 2.4 Ghz completely. GOOD


Would you please comment on the following?

1- With the current hardware that we have is it advisable to proceed on this 
route and configure the 2.4 Ghz manually? ABSOLUTELY- BOTH CHANNEL AND POWER IN 
THESE SPACES
2- Should we completely disable 2.4 Ghz support? Is it a norm for high density 
areas? NO- BUT HAT YOU HAVE IS LIKELY UNUSEABLE IN SPOTS AS DESCRIBED
3- Should we look to change hardware/ or vendor in order to have a seamless 
environment. Should we just limit the change to the high density areas or 
should we just change it overall. CHANGE NOTHING BUT YOUR APPROACH- THIS IS NOT 
A HW SELECTION PROBLEM- IT"S A DESIGN DEFICIENCY
4- Is a single channel solution for the lecture halls advisable? Have you 
experience a mix of single/multi-channel environment? How do they perform? 
SWEET CHEESE NO. YOU THINK YOU HAVE PROBLEMS NOW!

Absolutely do not run two vendors in your environment. You are using decent 
components now, changing the brand but duplicating this design will net you the 
exact same issues again. Solve your basic "too many APs issue" and your  
current hardware will serve you well.  Sooner or later you will overrun that 
500 Mbps to the Internet, so that bears watching.

Kind regards,

Lee


Lee Badman | CWNE #200 | Network Architect 

Information Technology Services
206 Machinery Hall
120 Smith Drive
Syracuse, New York 13244
t 315.443.3003   f 315.443.4325   e lhbad...@syr.edu w its.syr.edu
SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
syr.edu


-Original Message-
From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Zoltan Toth
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 10:35 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] High-Density Lecture Halls

Hello,

Thanks for your response.


We are currently running our Wi-Fi environment on HP 860 Wi-Fi Controller 
configured for high availability failover, with approx. 92 access points of the 
model HP 460 and 466 and 560 spread across the campus. The campus is separated 
into 3 floors with 3 high density areas namely lecture hall 1 with a seating 
capacity of 250 with about 400 connections (10 model 560 APs) and lecture hall 
2 with a seating capacity of 197 (6 model 560 APs) and a general hall with 
seating capacity for 200 (4 model 466APs). We have a 10 GB backbone an all 
switches and a 500MB internet connection. We are running PRTG to monitor the 
bandwidth consumption at the backbone and internet level and do not see any 
bottlenecks.


We have conducted a Wi-Fi survey and have their report which mentioned 
co-channel interference in the 2.4Ghz band. According to the survey the Wi-Fi 
signal coverage seems to be present in most of the campus areas.

In order to minimize the co-channel interference, we have implemented the 
following:

1- Removed 40 Mhz and 80 MHz bandwidth modes and set everything to 20 Mhz.
2- Removed G on all our access points.
3- Implemented band steering.
4- We are now in the process of manually adjusting the 2.4 Ghz channels on each 
AP so the neighboring APs do not have the same channel. In some cases, we turn 
off the 2.4 Ghz completely.


Would you please comment on the following?

1- With the current hardware that we have is it advisable to proceed on this 
route and configure the 2.4 Ghz manually?
2- Should we completely disable 

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] High-Density Lecture Halls

[Zoltan Toth]

Hello,

Thanks for your response.


We are currently running our Wi-Fi environment on HP 860 Wi-Fi Controller 
configured for high availability failover, with approx. 92 access points of the 
model HP 460 and 466 and 560 spread across the campus. The campus is separated 
into 3 floors with 3 high density areas namely lecture hall 1 with a seating 
capacity of 250 with about 400 connections (10 model 560 APs) and lecture hall 
2 with a seating capacity of 197 (6 model 560 APs) and a general hall with 
seating capacity for 200 (4 model 466APs). We have a 10 GB backbone an all 
switches and a 500MB internet connection. We are running PRTG to monitor the 
bandwidth consumption at the backbone and internet level and do not see any 
bottlenecks.


We have conducted a Wi-Fi survey and have their report which mentioned 
co-channel interference in the 2.4Ghz band. According to the survey the Wi-Fi 
signal coverage seems to be present in most of the campus areas.

In order to minimize the co-channel interference, we have implemented the 
following:

1- Removed 40 Mhz and 80 MHz bandwidth modes and set everything to 20 Mhz.
2- Removed G on all our access points.
3- Implemented band steering.
4- We are now in the process of manually adjusting the 2.4 Ghz channels on each 
AP so the neighboring APs do not have the same channel. In some cases, we turn 
off the 2.4 Ghz completely.


Would you please comment on the following?

1- With the current hardware that we have is it advisable to proceed on this 
route and configure the 2.4 Ghz manually?
2- Should we completely disable 2.4 Ghz support? Is it a norm for high density 
areas?
3- Should we look to change hardware/ or vendor in order to have a seamless 
environment. Should we just limit the change to the high density areas or 
should we just change it overall.
4- Is a single channel solution for the lecture halls advisable? Have you 
experience a mix of single/multi-channel environment? How do they perform?

Zoltan
__
Zoltan Toth - Manager, IT Infrastructure
Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College






On 2016-11-18, 11:11 AM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group 
Listserv on behalf of Lee H Badman"  wrote:

>Hi Zoltan,
>
>I'm assuming you're asking about wireless infrastructure and not client 
>devices? If so, I would say it's more about proper design than any different 
>technology.
>
>Also assuming that the lecture halls are in the mix with adjacent areas that 
>also part of the overall WLAN environment, you're generally limited to what 
>your current vendor (and code) support as opposed to trying to run islands of 
>different technology from Vendor B in the middle of Vendor A WLAN.
>
>Which brings us back to design. In a perfect world, you'd have some sense of 
>what type of client devices are likely to be in those rooms, how many active 
>at a time, and what they might be doing. For modern APs, you might service 
>200-300 "people" with 2-3 APs with captive antennas spaced and oriented 
>properly (depending on room layout), or you may need double that with 
>extremely low power and directional antennas.
>
>So... the answer is "it depends", as with all things wireless.
>
>Regards-
>
>Lee
>
>Lee Badman | CWNE #200 | Network Architect
>
>Information Technology Services
>206 Machinery Hall
>120 Smith Drive
>Syracuse, New York 13244
>t 315.443.3003   f 315.443.4325   e lhbad...@syr.edu w its.syr.edu
>SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
>syr.edu
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
>[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Zoltan Toth
>Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 9:47 AM
>To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
>Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] High-Density Lecture Halls
>
>What technologies do you use for high density areas like Lecture Halls for 
>about 200-300 people?
>
>__
>Zoltan Toth - Manager, IT Infrastructure
>Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College
>
>
>This communication together with any attachments is for the exclusive and 
>confidential use of the addressee(s). Any other distribution, use or 
>reproduction without the sender’s prior consent is unauthorized and strictly 
>prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the 
>sender immediately and delete or shred the message without making any copies.
>
>**
>Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
>discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>
>
>**
>Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
>discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>
This communication together with any attachments is for the exclusive and 
confidential use of the addressee(s). Any other distribution, use or 
reproduction without the sender’s prior consent is unauthorized and 

RE: Microsoft NPS as RADIUS for 802.1X Wi-Fi?

[Osborne, Bruce W (Network Operations)]

Feel free to ping me off-list if I can help further.


Bruce Osborne
Senior Network Engineer
Network Operations - Wireless

 (434) 592-4229

LIBERTY UNIVERSITY
Training Champions for Christ since 1971

From: Edward Ip [mailto:i...@algonquincollege.com]
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Microsoft NPS as RADIUS for 802.1X Wi-Fi?

Thank You Bruce!

Edward Ip
Algonquin College | 1385 Woodroffe Avenue | Room C316 | Ottawa | Ontario | K2G 
1V8 | Canada
algonquincollege.com

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W 
(Network Operations)
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 7:39 AM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Microsoft NPS as RADIUS for 802.1X Wi-Fi?

Edward,

The best way to get the ip address information from ClearPass is by having it 
forward the RADIUS Accounting data.

You can have ClearPass generate Syslog from the Accounting data, but there are 
currently issues with missing data. We have a case open with Aruba to resolve 
this.


Bruce Osborne
Senior Network Engineer
Network Operations - Wireless

 (434) 592-4229

LIBERTY UNIVERSITY
Training Champions for Christ since 1971

From: Edward Ip [mailto:i...@algonquincollege.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: Microsoft NPS as RADIUS for 802.1X Wi-Fi?

We have being using Microsoft NPS in a cluster as Radius for 80.21X for a while 
now. Our normal concurrent client load is about 12,000 users.

Monitoring is now done via Airwave, specifically using the Clarity feature. In 
the pass, we used Solarwinds to query our Aruba controllers for the statistics 
and then graphing it in Solarwinds.

We are not doing anything fancy with the NPS servers. My network architect 
wants to be able to query the AD network and set up network policies (like 
bandwidth control and app control) using Bluecoat PacketShaper and the 
Authentication and Authorization Agent (BCAAA) with User Awareness feature. 
However, the NPS servers do not update our ad directory with regards to what IP 
address the wireless client is currently using. So this feature is not useable 
on our wireless client (works great on wired domain clients). Investigating if 
we can use ClearPass to give the bluecoat the required information.

Edward Ip
Algonquin College | 1385 Woodroffe Avenue | Room C316 | Ottawa | Ontario | K2G 
1V8 | Canada
algonquincollege.com

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Lee H Badman
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 9:40 AM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Microsoft NPS as RADIUS for 802.1X Wi-Fi?

Hello to the awesome group.

We've used Cisco ACS with general satisfaction for many years as the RADIUS 
solution for our very, very large WLAN's 802.1X authentication. We also have 
Aruba Clearpass in-house for guest wireless, and have poked around at ISE a 
bit. We're weighing replacing our aging ACS environment, but as many of you 
know times are changing. When you shop for RADIUS, you have to wade through the 
fog of NAC systems because everything is getting ever more "feature rich". For 
major vendors, RADIUS is just a slice of NAC now, and since everybody "is a 
software company!" licensing can be ugly. I'm not slamming those who find value 
in the many interesting features that the likes of ISE and Clearpass offer, but 
I also can't help but be drawn to Microsoft NPS when I think about going 
forward with simple RADIUS.

Way back when, we avoided Microsoft in this role as the reporting wasn't 
particularly strong when it came time to troubleshoot clients. We *may* have 
found relief to this through Splunk, and also enjoy a robust Windows server 
environment staffed by absolutely brilliant MS-minded veteran admins.

All that being said- is anyone using NPS as their RADIUS solution for a large 
secure WLAN environment? Can you share likes, dislikes, regrets, endorsements, 
horror stories, tales of success, etc?


(Any vendor reps lurking- no, I'm not open to hearing about other RADIUS 
solutions. Please, no calls or emails)


Kind regards-

Lee Badman | CWNE #200 | Network Architect

Information Technology Services
206 Machinery Hall
120 Smith Drive
Syracuse, New York 13244
t 315.443.3003   f 315.443.4325   e lhbad...@syr.edu w 
its.syr.edu
SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
syr.edu



** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be