Re: [WISPA] Generators
I have been very happy with a propane genset, 450 gal tank, and ASCO automatic transfer switch. Propane fuel means never having to worry about algae or having to put stabilizer in the fuel to keep your carb from varnishing. Regardless of how good your monitoring equipment might be, you MUST check the genset by hand weekly. I had rats chew through the exciter wires once and render it useless. Marco WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Generators
If you go propane/NG upsize quite a bit to have smooth power. Diesel's torque makes for smoother power output undering changing loads. Diesel can run full rated load of datacenter load. I went diesel (Cummins/Onan) for my datacenter. I put the generator inside to prevent winter fuel gelling, rodents, rust, etc... It's on a 275 gallon heating oil tank. Looks almost like new still after 10 years. There's a whole set of design requirements for having a generator inside, in terms of fire safety, fresh air flow for combusition and cooling, etc..., that's why most are outside. I was building from scratch, so I put it where I wanted it. Had a boatbuilder put a custom stainless steel exhaust on it coming out the side of the building. Get something that matches the voltage and phase your utility provides. Don't get a 1 phase for your 3phase service. Get an appropriate high quality auto transfter switch that can switch your whole datacenter over, not just select circuits. The transfer switch should also be able to exercize the generator on a schedule. Check the hour meter and fluids once in a while so you know it's exercizing properly and ready for use. On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 03:02:28PM -0400, Chuck Hogg wrote: Ok, so I am in the market for a Generator. Looking for probably 30-45kW. I've heard people say I need a PMG Exciter?? Anyone with experience in doing this? It's to support our datacenter, a few racks, a few 2200 UPS's and PDU's, and Cooling. I find all kinds of different ones on eBay and elsewhere, and am hoping someone already did the legwork and figured out everything they needed and can share? Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com mailto:ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Generators
A couple of things I added to our generator here (110KVA Perkins turbo diesel) which have really made life easier are a Murphy LM2000 Oil Level Maintainer http://www.fwmurphy.com/product_search/?p=lm2000 and a ControlByWeb X301 controller http://www.controlbyweb.com/x301/. I'm not sure if the X301 would be of much benefit for a WISP backup generator (it gives Ethernet based control and monitoring) but the Murphy Oil Level Maintainer probably would be handy. I installed our LM2000 by connecting to the oil drain port (where the drain plug was) for the oil connection and I vented the LM2000 back to the crankcase through the dipstick tube (after removing the dipstick of course). The only other connection is a hose going up to an overhead oil storage tank (5 gallon bucket in my case). The LM2000 has a big sight glass so you don't need the dipstick anymore and inside it has a float valve. It keeps the oil level just perfect. Here in the jungle our generator is our only power. The X 301 has a schedule and it starts and stops the generator automatically, and when lightning approaches we can shut it down via the web interface. With the oil level maintained we don't even have to go down to the plant house anymore except for period inspections and maintenance. Our generator has a DeepSea controller so it interfaces really nicely with the X301 and the heavy duty contactor. It's made for standby/backup operation. Greg On Jul 30, 2010, at 5:36 PM, jp wrote: If you go propane/NG upsize quite a bit to have smooth power. Diesel's torque makes for smoother power output undering changing loads. Diesel can run full rated load of datacenter load. I went diesel (Cummins/Onan) for my datacenter. I put the generator inside to prevent winter fuel gelling, rodents, rust, etc... It's on a 275 gallon heating oil tank. Looks almost like new still after 10 years. There's a whole set of design requirements for having a generator inside, in terms of fire safety, fresh air flow for combusition and cooling, etc..., that's why most are outside. I was building from scratch, so I put it where I wanted it. Had a boatbuilder put a custom stainless steel exhaust on it coming out the side of the building. Get something that matches the voltage and phase your utility provides. Don't get a 1 phase for your 3phase service. Get an appropriate high quality auto transfter switch that can switch your whole datacenter over, not just select circuits. The transfer switch should also be able to exercize the generator on a schedule. Check the hour meter and fluids once in a while so you know it's exercizing properly and ready for use. On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 03:02:28PM -0400, Chuck Hogg wrote: Ok, so I am in the market for a Generator. Looking for probably 30-45kW. I've heard people say I need a PMG Exciter?? Anyone with experience in doing this? It's to support our datacenter, a few racks, a few 2200 UPS's and PDU's, and Cooling. I find all kinds of different ones on eBay and elsewhere, and am hoping someone already did the legwork and figured out everything they needed and can share? Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com mailto:ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Generators
I'm concerned with Diesel. My first Mercedes Diesel quit when the fuel tank turned into a blob of algae. I had never heard of anything eating that stuff but a pilot friend in the Air Force said his plane had become clogged with algae. He told me to put in a quart of high detergent 10W-40 in every tank. It's worked for 30 years. ...just a thought that had never occurred to me. . . . J o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of jp Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Generators If you go propane/NG upsize quite a bit to have smooth power. Diesel's torque makes for smoother power output undering changing loads. Diesel can run full rated load of datacenter load. I went diesel (Cummins/Onan) for my datacenter. I put the generator inside to prevent winter fuel gelling, rodents, rust, etc... It's on a 275 gallon heating oil tank. Looks almost like new still after 10 years. There's a whole set of design requirements for having a generator inside, in terms of fire safety, fresh air flow for combusition and cooling, etc..., that's why most are outside. I was building from scratch, so I put it where I wanted it. Had a boatbuilder put a custom stainless steel exhaust on it coming out the side of the building. Get something that matches the voltage and phase your utility provides. Don't get a 1 phase for your 3phase service. Get an appropriate high quality auto transfter switch that can switch your whole datacenter over, not just select circuits. The transfer switch should also be able to exercize the generator on a schedule. Check the hour meter and fluids once in a while so you know it's exercizing properly and ready for use. On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 03:02:28PM -0400, Chuck Hogg wrote: Ok, so I am in the market for a Generator. Looking for probably 30-45kW. I've heard people say I need a PMG Exciter?? Anyone with experience in doing this? It's to support our datacenter, a few racks, a few 2200 UPS's and PDU's, and Cooling. I find all kinds of different ones on eBay and elsewhere, and am hoping someone already did the legwork and figured out everything they needed and can share? Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com mailto:ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Generators
There are professional treatments. I've not tried any but in googling for oil additives for other issues (stuck rings/excessive blowby) and I came across them. Greg On Jul 30, 2010, at 6:09 PM, Jonathan Schmidt wrote: I'm concerned with Diesel. My first Mercedes Diesel quit when the fuel tank turned into a blob of algae. I had never heard of anything eating that stuff but a pilot friend in the Air Force said his plane had become clogged with algae. He told me to put in a quart of high detergent 10W-40 in every tank. It's worked for 30 years. ...just a thought that had never occurred to me. . . . J o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of jp Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Generators If you go propane/NG upsize quite a bit to have smooth power. Diesel's torque makes for smoother power output undering changing loads. Diesel can run full rated load of datacenter load. I went diesel (Cummins/Onan) for my datacenter. I put the generator inside to prevent winter fuel gelling, rodents, rust, etc... It's on a 275 gallon heating oil tank. Looks almost like new still after 10 years. There's a whole set of design requirements for having a generator inside, in terms of fire safety, fresh air flow for combusition and cooling, etc..., that's why most are outside. I was building from scratch, so I put it where I wanted it. Had a boatbuilder put a custom stainless steel exhaust on it coming out the side of the building. Get something that matches the voltage and phase your utility provides. Don't get a 1 phase for your 3phase service. Get an appropriate high quality auto transfter switch that can switch your whole datacenter over, not just select circuits. The transfer switch should also be able to exercize the generator on a schedule. Check the hour meter and fluids once in a while so you know it's exercizing properly and ready for use. On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 03:02:28PM -0400, Chuck Hogg wrote: Ok, so I am in the market for a Generator. Looking for probably 30-45kW. I've heard people say I need a PMG Exciter?? Anyone with experience in doing this? It's to support our datacenter, a few racks, a few 2200 UPS's and PDU's, and Cooling. I find all kinds of different ones on eBay and elsewhere, and am hoping someone already did the legwork and figured out everything they needed and can share? Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com mailto:ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Generators
Stick with Kohler. There are tons of brands - however... The Sine wave that is produced buy others will absolutely kill your UPS's Take it from someone that has learned the hard way. Cat has some higher end that work very well - as well. Kohler does much of what the PMG will do for you naturally. Also OVERSIZE... Our needs are 60 - so we went with 130KW. Gruber Power will spec everything for you out at no cost.then use that to shop around :-) On Jul 29, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Hogg wrote: Ok, so I am in the market for a Generator. Looking for probably 30-45kW. I’ve heard people say I need a PMG Exciter?? Anyone with experience in doing this? It’s to support our datacenter, a few racks, a few 2200 UPS’s and PDU’s, and Cooling. I find all kinds of different ones on eBay and elsewhere, and am hoping someone already did the legwork and figured out everything they needed and can share? Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ _ Glenn Kelley | Principle | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com Email: gl...@hostmedic.com Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Generators
Don¹t skimp on the transfer switch. THE PMG exciter is a way of providing good clean power to the voltage regulator. It¹s basically a kick butt magnet. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net http://www.mtin.net/blog Wisp Consulting Tower Climbing Network Support From: Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:02:28 -0400 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Generators Ok, so I am in the market for a Generator. Looking for probably 30-45kW. I¹ve heard people say I need a PMG Exciter?? Anyone with experience in doing this? It¹s to support our datacenter, a few racks, a few 2200 UPS¹s and PDU¹s, and Cooling. I find all kinds of different ones on eBay and elsewhere, and am hoping someone already did the legwork and figured out everything they needed and can share? Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com mailto:ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Generators
Ours is a 35kW from Cummins Power Generation. We chose to run ours on propane so as to require little maintenance and full independence from other utilities (Natural Gas). We sized our tank so as to have plenty of runtime and the propane co is just down the road in case we need an emergency fill. -Paul On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:29 PM, Glenn Kelley wrote: Stick with Kohler. There are tons of brands - however... The Sine wave that is produced buy others will absolutely kill your UPS's Take it from someone that has learned the hard way. Cat has some higher end that work very well - as well. Kohler does much of what the PMG will do for you naturally. Also OVERSIZE... Our needs are 60 - so we went with 130KW. Gruber Power will spec everything for you out at no cost.then use that to shop around :-) On Jul 29, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Hogg wrote: Ok, so I am in the market for a Generator. Looking for probably 30-45kW. I’ve heard people say I need a PMG Exciter?? Anyone with experience in doing this? It’s to support our datacenter, a few racks, a few 2200 UPS’s and PDU’s, and Cooling. I find all kinds of different ones on eBay and elsewhere, and am hoping someone already did the legwork and figured out everything they needed and can share? Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ _ Glenn Kelley | Principle | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com Email: gl...@hostmedic.com Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Generators
You could also simply use both. there are kits to allow either/or for most genset's On Jul 29, 2010, at 5:23 PM, Paul Gerstenberger wrote: Ours is a 35kW from Cummins Power Generation. We chose to run ours on propane so as to require little maintenance and full independence from other utilities (Natural Gas). We sized our tank so as to have plenty of runtime and the propane co is just down the road in case we need an emergency fill. -Paul On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:29 PM, Glenn Kelley wrote: Stick with Kohler. There are tons of brands - however... The Sine wave that is produced buy others will absolutely kill your UPS's Take it from someone that has learned the hard way. Cat has some higher end that work very well - as well. Kohler does much of what the PMG will do for you naturally. Also OVERSIZE... Our needs are 60 - so we went with 130KW. Gruber Power will spec everything for you out at no cost.then use that to shop around :-) On Jul 29, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Hogg wrote: Ok, so I am in the market for a Generator. Looking for probably 30-45kW. I’ve heard people say I need a PMG Exciter?? Anyone with experience in doing this? It’s to support our datacenter, a few racks, a few 2200 UPS’s and PDU’s, and Cooling. I find all kinds of different ones on eBay and elsewhere, and am hoping someone already did the legwork and figured out everything they needed and can share? Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ _ Glenn Kelley | Principle | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com Email: gl...@hostmedic.com Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ _ Glenn Kelley | Principle | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com Email: gl...@hostmedic.com Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Generators
How big of a tank is that propane generator? How long does that give you power? On Jul 29, 2010 5:25 PM, Paul Gerstenberger pa...@hrec.coop wrote: Ours is a 35kW from Cummins Power Generation. We chose to run ours on propane so as to require little maintenance and full independence from other utilities (Natural Gas). We sized our tank so as to have plenty of runtime and the propane co is just down the road in case we need an emergency fill. -Paul On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:29 PM, Glenn Kelley wrote: Stick with Kohler. There are tons of bra... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Generators
Oversize. It's the most practical way to ensure stability when powering a load that can have a poor power factor or a leading power factor. Datacenter loads being a perfect example. Switching power supplies with poor input filtering, UPSes that dump their entire load on the genset all at once, variable frequency drives on HVAC equipment, etc. are all present in datacenter loads and will all wreak havoc on your generator. I recommend reading this article: http://www.cumminspower.com/www/literature/technicalpapers/PT-6001-ImpactofPowerFactorLoads-en.pdf Any new generator in that size range will have an electronic governor, this is a must. There are lots of small things to consider, like block heaters if you are in a cold climate, and using algaecide if you're storing diesel. Find a vendor who knows what they're doing. Finally, monitoring. Make sure the generator has a built-in control system that will report errors. Most do this with a simple dry contact closure. You can tie this in to your building monitoring system if you have one to alert you if there is a problem, or attach to a SNMP capable device and monitor it using Nagios or whatever your network monitoring system is. Generators need to be tested frequently. Even the best ones love to die at very inopportune times. Mine exercise weekly and I run a load test every month after hours. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Chuck Hogg wrote: Ok, so I am in the market for a Generator. Looking for probably 30-45kW. I’ve heard people say I need a PMG Exciter?? Anyone with experience in doing this? It’s to support our datacenter, a few racks, a few 2200 UPS’s and PDU’s, and Cooling. I find all kinds of different ones on eBay and elsewhere, and am hoping someone already did the legwork and figured out everything they needed and can share? Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com mailto:ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
