Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity

2009-05-01 Thread Mark McElvy
It has an adaptive mode which does both.

 

Mark

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:31 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity

 

Dual polarity as in you are horizontal and vertical.

Or as in the nano will do either polarity?

As far as I know the nano does either (software switchable) not both.
But, it would not be the first time I was wrong.

Brian

Charles Wyble wrote: 

The NS2 is dual polarity.
 
Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as

clients.
 
So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real 
world indication of AP selection and coverage area.
 
 
 
Tom DeReggi wrote:
  

well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary
question of 
polarity.
 
Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: Charles Wyble char...@thewybles.com
mailto:char...@thewybles.com 
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
mailto:wireless@wispa.org 
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
 
 


I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide
coverage to an
entire strip mall. Google earth it:
 
 229 Main Street
El Segundo, CA 90245
 
is where I deployed the AP.
 
It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire
mall, plus
across the street in all 4 directions.
 
 
 
Tom DeReggi wrote:
  

Over the years, there have been many theories
and strategies regarding 
what
polarity is best to use for various purposes.
As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But,
I wanted to get an 
updated
opinion based on field trials of others, for the
following 
application
 
Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot
Specs...
1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2
mile.
2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available
Networks, via laptop's 
WIFI
card.
3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash
screen to user, will 
display
instruction for ordering higher gain antenna
self-install kit for inside
their window mount or balcony.
4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel
(60 deg?), with an EIRP 
of
36db.
 
The goal here is enabling residential users
to find the ISP's AP on
their own.
 
So my questions are
 
1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used
at the AP, Is it likely 
the
consumer will equally be able to find your AP,
compared to if it had been
verical pol'd?
 
The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is
much lower in the 
particular
area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise
from consumer APs that 
ship
with vert pol antennas, where end users by
default will stick the 
antennas
straight up in Verticle pol position.
 
2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets
to the end user, is it
received in multiple polarities, based on all
the reflections in end 
users
home and stuff?
 
3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no
polarity, and pick up Horizontal 
as
good as verticle signals?
 
4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol
antennas in some cases,
expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true?  Or
are most laptops starting 
to
embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of
screens

Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity

2009-04-30 Thread Charles Wyble
I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an 
entire strip mall. Google earth it:

  229 Main Street
El Segundo, CA 90245

is where I deployed the AP.

It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus 
across the street in all 4 directions.



Tom DeReggi wrote:
 Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what 
 polarity is best to use for various purposes.
 As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated 
 opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application
 
 Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot
 Specs...
 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile.
 2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's WIFI 
 card.
 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display 
 instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside 
 their window mount or balcony.
 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 
 36db.
 
 The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on 
 their own.
 
 So my questions are
 
 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the 
 consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been 
 verical pol'd?
 
 The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular 
 area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship 
 with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas 
 straight up in Verticle pol position.
 
 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it 
 received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users 
 home and stuff?
 
 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal as 
 good as verticle signals?
 
 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, 
 expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true?  Or are most laptops starting to 
 embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens?
 
 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when 
 they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of 
 ISPs Hotspots?
 
 In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is 
 significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their 
 sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because 
 they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle 
 pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat?
 
 Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional 
 install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop 
 or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self 
 subscription.  (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but 
 purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more 
 people to play in the same spectrum)
 
 What have other's found?
 
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test
 
 
 Tom DeReggi wrote:
 Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had 
 their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail 
 interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, 
 from what it sounds like.

 I guess that should be clarified

 Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, 
 was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped?


 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband



 Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close
 proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with
 each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them?

 You would think there would be even more self interference with high
 gain antennas than with no antennas



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 
 
 
 
 
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 Archives: 

Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity

2009-04-30 Thread Jason Hensley
The last time I did some searching on this, I figured out that many laptops
are actually dual-pol.  In realistic testing, I've taken the laptop to some
of my vertical and horizontal AP's, turned it sideways, upside down, etc etc
and really get no difference in db.  Now, this is on my Dell Latitude with
an integrated Intel card.  I get better reception out of it than most other
people I know for some reason.  Have also done this with a PCMCIA card and
have also not see much difference in reception.  

I'm sure others may vary on this, but from what I've found, with Hotspot
level access straight from the laptop there is no noticeable difference from
either Polarity.  



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:21 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity

Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what 
polarity is best to use for various purposes.
As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated 
opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application

Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot
Specs...
1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile.
2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's WIFI 
card.
3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display

instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside 
their window mount or balcony.
4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 
36db.

The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on 
their own.

So my questions are

1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the 
consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been 
verical pol'd?

The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular

area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship 
with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas 
straight up in Verticle pol position.

2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it 
received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users 
home and stuff?

3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal as 
good as verticle signals?

4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, 
expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true?  Or are most laptops starting to 
embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens?

5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when 
they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of 
ISPs Hotspots?

In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is 
significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their 
sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because

they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle 
pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat?

Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional 
install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop

or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self

subscription.  (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but 
purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more

people to play in the same spectrum)

What have other's found?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test


 Tom DeReggi wrote:
 Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had 
 their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail 
 interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, 
 from what it sounds like.

 I guess that should be clarified

 Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, 
 was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped?


 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband




 Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close
 proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with
 each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them?

 You would think there would be even more self interference with high
 gain antennas than with no antennas






 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/




 WISPA Wireless List: 

Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity

2009-04-30 Thread Jason Hensley
Oh, and in response to question #5, our typical hotspot users, I guess
really all of our users, barely know how to get signed on, much less have
any clue about antenna polarity.  We get the rare one that is very savvy on
this, but for the most part, our users are still pretty much in the dark as
to differences in polarity, technologies, etc etc.  All they know is whether
or not they can sign on, and if they can get on, what speeds they are
getting, how fast they get their email, and how reliable their gaming and
video is :-)

 



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:21 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity

Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what 
polarity is best to use for various purposes.
As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated 
opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application

Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot
Specs...
1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile.
2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's WIFI 
card.
3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display

instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside 
their window mount or balcony.
4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 
36db.

The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on 
their own.

So my questions are

1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the 
consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been 
verical pol'd?

The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular

area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship 
with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas 
straight up in Verticle pol position.

2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it 
received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users 
home and stuff?

3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal as 
good as verticle signals?

4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, 
expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true?  Or are most laptops starting to 
embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens?

5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when 
they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of 
ISPs Hotspots?

In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is 
significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their 
sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because

they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle 
pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat?

Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional 
install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop

or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self

subscription.  (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but 
purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more

people to play in the same spectrum)

What have other's found?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test


 Tom DeReggi wrote:
 Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had 
 their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail 
 interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, 
 from what it sounds like.

 I guess that should be clarified

 Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, 
 was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped?


 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband




 Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close
 proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with
 each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them?

 You would think there would be even more self interference with high
 gain antennas than with no antennas






 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/




 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 



Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity

2009-04-30 Thread Tom DeReggi
well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of 
polarity.

Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Wyble char...@thewybles.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity


I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an
 entire strip mall. Google earth it:

  229 Main Street
 El Segundo, CA 90245

 is where I deployed the AP.

 It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus
 across the street in all 4 directions.



 Tom DeReggi wrote:
 Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding 
 what
 polarity is best to use for various purposes.
 As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an 
 updated
 opinion based on field trials of others, for the following 
 application

 Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot
 Specs...
 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile.
 2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's 
 WIFI
 card.
 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will 
 display
 instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside
 their window mount or balcony.
 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP 
 of
 36db.

 The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on
 their own.

 So my questions are

 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely 
 the
 consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been
 verical pol'd?

 The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the 
 particular
 area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that 
 ship
 with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the 
 antennas
 straight up in Verticle pol position.

 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it
 received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end 
 users
 home and stuff?

 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal 
 as
 good as verticle signals?

 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases,
 expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true?  Or are most laptops starting 
 to
 embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens?

 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, 
 when
 they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of
 ISPs Hotspots?

 In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is
 significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their
 sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot 
 because
 they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle
 pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat?

 Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a 
 professional
 install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their 
 laptop
 or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot 
 self
 subscription.  (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but
 purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable 
 more
 people to play in the same spectrum)

 What have other's found?

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test


 Tom DeReggi wrote:
 Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had
 their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail
 interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases,
 from what it sounds like.

 I guess that should be clarified

 Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots,
 was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped?


 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband



 Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close
 proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with
 each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them?

 You would think there would be even more self interference with high
 gain antennas than with no antennas



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org

Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity

2009-04-30 Thread Charles Wyble
The NS2 is dual polarity.

Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as 
clients.

So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real 
world indication of AP selection and coverage area.



Tom DeReggi wrote:
 well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of 
 polarity.
 
 Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see.
 
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Charles Wyble char...@thewybles.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
 
 
 I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an
 entire strip mall. Google earth it:

  229 Main Street
 El Segundo, CA 90245

 is where I deployed the AP.

 It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus
 across the street in all 4 directions.



 Tom DeReggi wrote:
 Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding 
 what
 polarity is best to use for various purposes.
 As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an 
 updated
 opinion based on field trials of others, for the following 
 application

 Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot
 Specs...
 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile.
 2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's 
 WIFI
 card.
 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will 
 display
 instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside
 their window mount or balcony.
 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP 
 of
 36db.

 The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on
 their own.

 So my questions are

 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely 
 the
 consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been
 verical pol'd?

 The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the 
 particular
 area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that 
 ship
 with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the 
 antennas
 straight up in Verticle pol position.

 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it
 received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end 
 users
 home and stuff?

 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal 
 as
 good as verticle signals?

 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases,
 expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true?  Or are most laptops starting 
 to
 embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens?

 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, 
 when
 they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of
 ISPs Hotspots?

 In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is
 significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their
 sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot 
 because
 they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle
 pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat?

 Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a 
 professional
 install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their 
 laptop
 or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot 
 self
 subscription.  (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but
 purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable 
 more
 people to play in the same spectrum)

 What have other's found?

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test


 Tom DeReggi wrote:
 Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had
 their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail
 interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases,
 from what it sounds like.

 I guess that should be clarified

 Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots,
 was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped?


 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband



 Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close
 proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with
 each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them?

 You would think there would be even more self interference with high
 gain antennas than with no antennas



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join

Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity

2009-04-30 Thread Blair Davis




The NS2 can be set to V-pol, H-pol or Adaptive.

Charles Wyble wrote:

  The NS2 is dual polarity.

Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as 
clients.

So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real 
world indication of AP selection and coverage area.



Tom DeReggi wrote:
  
  
well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of 
polarity.

Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Wyble" char...@thewybles.com
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity




  I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an
entire strip mall. Google earth it:

 229 Main Street
El Segundo, CA 90245

is where I deployed the AP.

It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus
across the street in all 4 directions.



Tom DeReggi wrote:
  
  
Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding 
what
polarity is best to use for various purposes.
As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an 
updated
opinion based on field trials of others, for the following 
application

Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot
Specs...
1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile.
2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's 
WIFI
card.
3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will 
display
instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside
their window mount or balcony.
4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP 
of
36db.

The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on
their own.

So my questions are

1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely 
the
consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been
verical pol'd?

The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the 
particular
area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that 
ship
with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the 
antennas
straight up in Verticle pol position.

2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it
received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end 
users
home and stuff?

3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal 
as
good as verticle signals?

4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases,
expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true?  Or are most laptops starting 
to
embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens?

5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, 
when
they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of
ISPs Hotspots?

In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is
significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their
sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot 
because
they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle
pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat?

Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a 
professional
install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their 
laptop
or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot 
self
subscription.  (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but
purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable 
more
people to play in the same spectrum)

What have other's found?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" wi...@oregonfast.net
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test




  Tom DeReggi wrote:
  
  
Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had
their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail
interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases,
from what it sounds like.

I guess that should be clarified

Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots,
was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped?


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband




  
  Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close
proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with
each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them?

You would think there would

Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity

2009-04-30 Thread Brian Rohrbacher




Dual polarity as in you are horizontal and vertical.

Or as in the nano will do either polarity?

As far as I know the nano does either (software switchable) not both.
But, it would not be the first time I was wrong.

Brian

Charles Wyble wrote:

  The NS2 is dual polarity.

Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as 
clients.

So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real 
world indication of AP selection and coverage area.



Tom DeReggi wrote:
  
  
well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of 
polarity.

Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Wyble" char...@thewybles.com
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity




  I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an
entire strip mall. Google earth it:

 229 Main Street
El Segundo, CA 90245

is where I deployed the AP.

It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus
across the street in all 4 directions.



Tom DeReggi wrote:
  
  
Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding 
what
polarity is best to use for various purposes.
As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an 
updated
opinion based on field trials of others, for the following 
application

Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot
Specs...
1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile.
2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's 
WIFI
card.
3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will 
display
instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside
their window mount or balcony.
4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP 
of
36db.

The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on
their own.

So my questions are

1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely 
the
consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been
verical pol'd?

The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the 
particular
area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that 
ship
with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the 
antennas
straight up in Verticle pol position.

2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it
received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end 
users
home and stuff?

3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal 
as
good as verticle signals?

4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases,
expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true?  Or are most laptops starting 
to
embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens?

5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, 
when
they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of
ISPs Hotspots?

In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is
significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their
sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot 
because
they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle
pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat?

Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a 
professional
install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their 
laptop
or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot 
self
subscription.  (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but
purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable 
more
people to play in the same spectrum)

What have other's found?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" wi...@oregonfast.net
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test




  Tom DeReggi wrote:
  
  
Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had
their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail
interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases,
from what it sounds like.

I guess that should be clarified

Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots,
was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped?


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband




  
  Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close
proximi

Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity

2009-04-30 Thread Charles Wyble
I was using default settings. I'll login to it and look later today and 
let you guys know.

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
 Dual polarity as in you are horizontal and vertical.
 
 Or as in the nano will do either polarity?
 
 As far as I know the nano does either (software switchable) not both.
 But, it would not be the first time I was wrong.
 
 Brian
 
 Charles Wyble wrote:
 The NS2 is dual polarity.

 Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as 
 clients.

 So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real 
 world indication of AP selection and coverage area.



 Tom DeReggi wrote:
   
 well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of 
 polarity.

 Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: Charles Wyble char...@thewybles.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity


 
 I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an
 entire strip mall. Google earth it:

  229 Main Street
 El Segundo, CA 90245

 is where I deployed the AP.

 It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus
 across the street in all 4 directions.



 Tom DeReggi wrote:
   
 Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding 
 what
 polarity is best to use for various purposes.
 As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an 
 updated
 opinion based on field trials of others, for the following 
 application

 Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot
 Specs...
 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile.
 2) Find and Subscribe by Search for available Networks, via laptop's 
 WIFI
 card.
 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will 
 display
 instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside
 their window mount or balcony.
 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP 
 of
 36db.

 The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on
 their own.

 So my questions are

 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely 
 the
 consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been
 verical pol'd?

 The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the 
 particular
 area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that 
 ship
 with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the 
 antennas
 straight up in Verticle pol position.

 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it
 received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end 
 users
 home and stuff?

 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically no polarity, and pick up Horizontal 
 as
 good as verticle signals?

 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases,
 expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true?  Or are most laptops starting 
 to
 embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens?

 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, 
 when
 they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of
 ISPs Hotspots?

 In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is
 significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their
 sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot 
 because
 they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle
 pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat?

 Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a 
 professional
 install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their 
 laptop
 or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot 
 self
 subscription.  (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but
 purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable 
 more
 people to play in the same spectrum)

 What have other's found?

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test


 
 Tom DeReggi wrote:
   
 Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had
 their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail
 interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases,
 from what it sounds like.

 I guess that should be clarified

 Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots,
 was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped?


 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband