Using a table is not an issue, form data is tabular.
For accessibility I'd suggest using a label on each input but hide it visually
using one of the standard techniques.
table id=grouptravel summary=Group travel quote border=0
thead
tr
th class=hidden scope=colGroup/th
th
Mike Foskett wrote:
Using a table is not an issue, form data is tabular.
You say that like it's fact when it's really a matter of opinion.
Personally I'd argue that a form is not a means of displaying tabular
data, it's an input mechanism.
It seems crazy to me that people will come up with
Andy Budd wrote:
Personally I'd argue that a form is not a means of displaying tabular
data, it's an input mechanism.
Er... Agreed.
I was of the opinion, perhaps incorrectly, that the form in question was
intended to input tabular data hence the table.
Andy Budd wrote:
how
On 12 Jan 2005, at 10:47, Mike Foskett wrote:
Andy Budd wrote:
Personally I'd argue that a form is not a means of displaying tabular
data, it's an input mechanism.
Er... Agreed.
I was of the opinion, perhaps incorrectly, that the form in question
was intended to input tabular data hence the
From: Andy Budd
[...]
What I'm saying is that tables are meant to display tabular data
however a form is an input mechanism, not data itself. Thus in my
opinion it would be incorrect to use a table to layout a form.
Yup, that's how I've usually looked at it as well.
allowing people to
Yes please keep the fun posts out of here. I want more on CSS rounded
corners please and site checks because that is so much more on topic than a
conference about Web Standards and Accessibility being discussed in the
webstandardsgroup.org mail list.
Ok this post is OT and slightly flame.. But
I have tried hiding labels in the past. But I came across very inconsistent
behavior. Some labels would show, some wouldn't. I was using display:none. I'm
sure there was something else going on in my code, but it seemed like the
inconsistency in browsers treating forms made the label hiding an
On 12 Jan 2005, at 16:42, Ted Drake wrote:
I have tried hiding labels in the past. But I came across very
inconsistent behavior. Some labels would show, some wouldn't. I was
using display:none. I'm sure there was something else going on in my
code, but it seemed like the inconsistency in
What you're suggesting (putting TDs in a table) sounds like using tables for
layout, which we all know we're not supposed to do... I found an article
that discusses CSS alternatives to the non-standards uses of tables for
layouts... This article from alistapart
Ted:
Don't hide labels with display:none. Screen readers don't see it either.
I'd suggest something more like:
.hidden {width:0; height:0; overflow:hidden; font-size:1px}
Or use a method that shifts the text off screen to the left.
Maybe consider the approach below even if it has too many
I'm not one to say screw accessibility, I need my pages to look purty,
but the point of my question is: we may have 30 to 50 people
registering. If I include a label for each fieldset, the page is going
to be bulky and possibly less usable for those with sight. A table would
make life easy, but
A group of related form controls really belong together in a fieldset
with a legend. Each control can then be labelled correctly. Additional
'how to use' instructions can be provided in the title attribute of each
form control.
Example:
fieldsetlegendPlease select your age/legend
label
I'm not one to say screw accessibility, I need my pages to look purty,
but the point of my question is: we may have 30 to 50 people
registering. If I include a label for each fieldset, the page is going
to be bulky and possibly less usable for those with sight.
snip
Having 50 labels that
Alex Katechis wrote:
[...]
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/practicalcss/
[...]
span class=labelName:/spanspan
class=formwinput type=text size=25 //span
That's just rubbish. What the heck...span class=label?
This sort of thing really is just replacing one inappropriate markup
(tables)
Andy:
If forms were meant to be tabular they'd have fr's and fd's.
Therefore data output in tabular form is okay but data input is not.
Hi,
Sorry if I quoted you out of context Andy (I don't have the original
message), but I have a question regarding why forms should or should not
be considered
To me tabular means...tabular. Take a look at most real-world forms.
DMV, tax forms, you name it. Mostly all tabular. The form is broken up
into logical groups / cells indicating a relationship of relationship
through the structure.
Yes I know fieldsets also create a group/relationship of form
I tried the approach below. Only works if there's only one input tag on
the right column. If there're more input fields in a row (even if it's just
2 input type=radio, the following row just keeps on indenting itself to
the right.
For me, I settled the matter by using definition lists. Sponged
Ryan Nichols wrote:
To me tabular means...tabular. Take a look at most real-world forms.
DMV, tax forms, you name it. Mostly all tabular. The form is broken up
into logical groups / cells indicating a relationship of relationship
through the structure.
Yes I know fieldsets also create a
Hey gang, here's a question for you. I'm working on converting a page
location picker for our CMS from tables to something more
standards-compliant. I found something interesting I wanted more
information about:
http://www.angelfire.com/blog/wrongheaded/webhelp/locations_test/standards.html
They are only semantically correct when used within specific contexts.
Too many people confuse semantics (the implicit meaning of markup) with
valid html (correct code). They are two completely different sides of the
same coin. If it doesn't matter to you, then you're a member of the wrong
As usual with me, I figure something out _right_ after I post.
The page is working in Safari, FF Mac, Win IE6/5.5.
If you find a mess when you look at it, let me know!
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
mlinc.com
On Jan 12, 2005, at 4:49 PM, Tom Livingston
On 13 Jan 2005, at 8:35 AM, Charlie Barr wrote:
Hey gang, here's a question for you. I'm working on converting a page
location picker for our CMS from tables to something more
standards-compliant. I found something interesting I wanted more
information about:
Iain Gardiner wrote:
They are only semantically correct when used within specific contexts.
Too many people confuse semantics (the implicit meaning of markup) with
valid html (correct code). They are two completely different sides of the
same coin. If it doesn't matter to you, then you're a
Hmmm, I think that you could adapt a javascript/css fix that I found on an
ALA article (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/footer) you might need to
factor in padding, margins, borders, and heights of the different elements
in your page.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I had no idea the page had popups. I use browsers that actually block
all my popups for me, so I don't fret over them anymore. Guess it's
time to find another free hosting service.
Charlie
Nick Gleitzman has created a disturbance in the Force.
I felt its presence on 1/12/2005 5:19 PM.
Its
I agree. I quite sweating these a while ago, because it's all up to some
measure of interpretation.
(Raises mug)
Ryan Nichols
Graphic Design / Web Development
Matrixwebs.com
1.800.711.2829
18330 Sutter Blvd.
Morgan Hill, CA 95037
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You could use this little bit of code to find the position of one
element then do the work to place the other element using the new found
co-ords
function GetElementPostion(xElement){
var selectedPosX = 0;
var selectedPosY = 0;
var theElement = document.getElementById(xElement);
G'day
span class=labelName:/spanspan
class=formwinput type=text size=25 //span
That's just rubbish. What the heck...span class=label?
This sort of thing really is just replacing one inappropriate markup
(tables) for another (divs and spans with css styling) and actually
*diminishing* the
Thank you everyone for your comments. Sometimes a question generates more
questions than answers, but that is what we are here for. Each person's
suggestions was interesting.
I've taken the advice to heart and I understand the importance of semantic and
valid coding.
I put together a sample
Can anyone assist
with a hack that is forFirefox only. I have found that bot IE6 and Opera
7.54 place the list-image outside the border area of the ul. Firefox however
places the image inside the ul border. The hacks I have used all affect
both Firefox and Opera. Any suggestions please.
Cook, Graham R wrote:
Can anyone assist with a hack that is for Firefox only. I have found
that bot IE6 and Opera 7.54 place the list-image outside the border area
of the ul. Firefox however places the image inside the ul border. The
hacks I have used all affect both Firefox and Opera. Any
Found my
problem;
Here's the trick
(after reading MaxDesign 'Taming Lists')
1.Mark margin-left
and padding-left of both ul and li to 0px
2.Use the ul
margin-left to set image position in em
3. Use the li
padding-left in em to set the distance between the image and the
text
Hi Graham
That looks like a very complex setup to display what is really a
simple list of two items, with an image for a bullet. Perhaps the
complexity is causing your problem (or the extra markup to
highlight the problem is confusing me)?
How about this approach:
ul {
list-style: none;
Bert,
I cut down the html to minimum possible, actual lists include many
items, plus several lists in each panel. Panel is also part of
containing div which contains several of these panels.
Thanks anyway
Graham
**
The discussion list for
Just wondering.
I was asked for the first time yesterday, what the big difference and
advantage to using an ID over a CLASS was...
I know why classes are good!
What is the advantage of an ID over simply giving something an ID??
I know these facts,
Only 1 usage per ID per page...
Classes are
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:20:55 +1100, Cook, Graham R
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Can anyone assist with a hack that is for Firefox only. I have found that
bot IE6 and Opera 7.54 place the list-image outside the border area of the
ul. Firefox however places the image inside the ul border. The
IDs have higher specificity is another.
You can link/anchor to them that way.
Cheers
Jeff
On 13/1/05 1:23 PM, Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Just wondering.
I was asked for the first time yesterday, what the big difference and
advantage to using an ID over a CLASS was...
I know
BTW I know IDs are needed for LABELS and other FORM elements.
:)
Cheers
Chris Stratford wrote:
Just wondering.
I was asked for the first time yesterday, what the big difference and
advantage to using an ID over a CLASS was...
I know why classes are good!
What is the advantage of an ID over
another difference between classes and ids are that IDs have a higher
specificity than classes. If a class's properties conflicted with an ID's
properties, the ID would take precedence over the class.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Chris
Chris Stratford wrote:
What is the advantage of an ID over simply giving something an ID??
No measurable advantage, but it's a question of principle and
appropriateness: if something is unique (e.g. your page will only ever
have one header, footer, main navigation bar, content area, etc), then
Chris Stratford wrote:
What is the advantage of an ID over simply giving something an ID??
Besides the benefits of greater CSS selector specificity than classes
and its use as a target for URLs, ids also convey a semantic value which
is different than a class and can be referred to via
What is the advantage of an ID over simply giving something an ID??
My explanation for the existance of IDs in CSS is simply that if IDs
are there to be used in HTML, then they need to be there in CSS too.
In other words, if you're sitting there with your own HTML document
and you're wondering
Ah yes - now I remember :o)
Richard
- Original Message -
From: Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links
Richard
See how I display the pipes on the horizontal menu
At 06:23 PM 1/12/05, Chris Stratford wrote:
I was asked for the first time yesterday, what the big difference and
advantage to using an ID over a CLASS was...
Chris,
With regard to our intentions as scripters, what you and everyone else has
said applies: ids are unique, classes are generic, and
Hi,
How come the validator said that iframe is not a valid tag or can not be
used with HTML 4.01 strict? I remember that I used in the past iframe
without problem.
div id=block
iframe src=vide.htm id=mframe name=mframe width=690 height=320
scrolling=auto style=margin-top:20px;
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