Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
Come off it. Under no circumstance has it ever cost us more to do it right than to do it poorly; shoddy workmanship always results in higher costs. If it is costing you too much to do it right, you are doing more than just your coding wrong. On 10/25/07, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your information, Rogier. Doesn't change my thinking though. Firefox with the Firefox logo works how it's supposed to, so there is a difference between the debian thing and the 'real' Firefox. And this difference isn't one we care about. First of all, if there are any users in that category, there isn't more than a handful. Secondly, they don't have to go to this page to use the site. This is separate 'help' information. Thirdly anyone who experiences the problem we were trying to solve can still navigate the site. So yes, it would be good to fix it. But there are far more pressing issues for us to work on and if any user finds they are experiencing the problem this was about, we don't care now, since all the users reflected in our site stats are not experiencing the problem. Cost/benefit once again. Ideally, we'd like the site to have no issues at all. But out of 100,000 users, 1 or 2 (at most!) might not be able to use the drop down menu to navigate out of the self-running demonstration and have to use the back button instead.If debian ever gets to the point in Australia where our users start using it, the cost/benefit ratio might change, at which time we might revisit the decision to move on to other issues. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 5:03 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Mike, Just for your information Iceweasel IS firefox, just with another name (build from the firefox source by the debian team). Because of those stupid American patent laws you can't use a name of software without a logo and because the logo is copyrighted, debian doesn't wants it in their O.S. fyi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceweasel I understand that you have to prioritize how your site works with O.S.' es and browsers, but if you decide to use a plugin like flash you should go for it completely or don't. It's out of the question that users can't navigate your site, just because of some fancy flash. But that's my 2 cents. Rogier. On 25/10/2007, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think its wonderful how, every time I post something to this list, people will rush to tell me how we ought to be spending our scarce development dollars. Christian Montoya, why do you assume that we're so dumb we don't know anything about our customers? We have quite a large number of Firefox customers, but if they're using Firefox, the site works fine. I know because I've tested it in Firefox. I develop with Firefox. My client's testing regime includes Firefox. There were several people on this list who tested it in Firefox and didn't report any problems. The issue was raised by Roger who said there was a small problem with Firefox (IceWeasel) for debian whatever that is, not Firefox.You accuse us of making poor assumptions when that's indeed what you did in your patronising way. It might be true in big shops that there are unlimited development dollars sufficient to allocate teams of people to iron out every last little issue, but in small shops like mine (and they don't come smaller than my business!!) there isn't unlimited time available. Here's a lesson in business for some of you. There is a limited supply of time and dollars, and most jobs have a deadline. If you're running a development shop for profit, there often comes a time when you have to accept there will be issues with your output, and as lon gas it doesn't impact unduly on your customers sometimes you have to just let the issues remain in order to run the business. I can't afford to be spending time tracking down every last problem. And my client wont pay me to either. We make some compromise decisions along the way.We will not even be testing our site in the browsers mentioned by Roger: Firefox (IceWeasel) for debian, or Epiphany (whatever the hell they are). I've never heard of those browsers and I surely doubt many of my client's customers have either.The site works how we want it to in the major environments, and in the others it's still usable, if a little quirky. That's where it's gonna stop while we move on to more important issues like rebuilding the shopping cart that is showing signs of stress with the volumes
[WSG] accessible calendars? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Hi all, Can anyone recommend a standards compliant, calendar application for a website? Cheers, Leon Leon Wild :: Web Manager :: Human Rights Commission :: ph +61 2 9284 9698 :: email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WARNING: The information contained in this email may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use or copying of any part of this information is unauthorised. If you have received this email in error, we apologise for any inconvenience and request that you notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this email, together with any attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accessible calendars? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Hi Leon, I am not sure what you meant by calendat application, but have a look at: Unobtrusive Date-Picker http://www.frequency-decoder.com/2006/10/02/unobtrusive-date-picker-widgit-update/ On 26/10/2007, Leon Wild [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Can anyone recommend a standards compliant, calendar application for a website? Cheers, Leon Leon Wild :: Web Manager :: Human Rights Commission :: ph +61 2 9284 9698 :: email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WARNING: The information contained in this email may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use or copying of any part of this information is unauthorised. If you have received this email in error, we apologise for any inconvenience and request that you notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this email, together with any attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images
If the images are in the CSS, then there's no need for alt attributes. Conversely, if you believe an image should have alt text, then it shouldn't be in the CSS as a bg-image. On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:20:23 +1000, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi again... Whoops...butterfingers I unwittingly hit send before completing my email. Anywise...here is what it should have said: Hi, WCAG 1.0 (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/) states: Guideline 1. Provide equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual content Provide content that, when presented to the user, conveys essentially the same function or purpose as auditory or visual content 1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via alt, longdesc, or in element content). *This includes*: images, graphical representations of text (including symbols), image map regions, animations ( e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art, frames, scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds (played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio tracks of video, and video. [Priority 1] I have two questions regarding images added via CSS. 1) I added an image for each bullet via CSS .box ul li. How do I specify alt text in this situation? Do I add alt text in the HTML...even though there would be no image if CSS was disabled? 2) What is the implication (what do I need to do) for purely presenation/aesthetic images? For example on my wife's microsite (that I built) http://phd.london.edu/ygrushkacockayne/ what do I need to do, if anything, for the gifs that form rounded corners on the boxes, via CCS on .box, box2 et cetera? Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] WCAG conformance and checking
Hi, I am on a mission to get the microsite that I built for my wife http://phd.london.edu/ygrushkacockayne/ to conform to W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0, available at http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WAI-WEBCONTENT-19990505, level Double-A. I am reading http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/. I realize no automated checking is foolproof...but are there any good automated tools to assist in WCAG conformance checking? ( I hear cynthia mentioned from time to time...any good/any details? Any others? Any good Firefox extensions/plug-ins? Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Alt text for purely aesthetic images
Hi, http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/ Guideline 1. Provide equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual content 1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via alt, longdesc, or in element content). *This includes*: images, graphical representations of text (including symbols), image map regions, animations ( e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art, frames, scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds (played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio tracks of video, and video. [Priority 1] Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt text for purely aesthetic images
Hi Simon, If you have an image for purely presentational purposes then you can use a blank alt attribute alt= However, if it's purely for presentational purposes then you should really apply it using CSS as a background image ;o) Thanks Dave http://www.dave-woods.co.uk On 26/10/2007, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/ Guideline 1. Provide equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual content 1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via alt, longdesc, or in element content). This includes: images, graphical representations of text (including symbols), image map regions, animations (e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art, frames, scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds (played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio tracks of video, and video. [Priority 1] Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images
Hi again... Whoops...butterfingers I unwittingly hit send before completing my email. Anywise...here is what it should have said: Hi, WCAG 1.0 (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/) states: Guideline 1. Provide equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual content Provide content that, when presented to the user, conveys essentially the same function or purpose as auditory or visual content 1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via alt, longdesc, or in element content). *This includes*: images, graphical representations of text (including symbols), image map regions, animations ( e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art, frames, scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds (played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio tracks of video, and video. [Priority 1] I have two questions regarding images added via CSS. 1) I added an image for each bullet via CSS .box ul li. How do I specify alt text in this situation? Do I add alt text in the HTML...even though there would be no image if CSS was disabled? 2) What is the implication (what do I need to do) for purely presenation/aesthetic images? For example on my wife's microsite (that I built) http://phd.london.edu/ygrushkacockayne/ what do I need to do, if anything, for the gifs that form rounded corners on the boxes, via CCS on .box, box2 et cetera? Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images
As a general rule, any images that add to the content or are required for navigation should be applied as a foreground image using the img tag and an alt attribute should be applied. If an image is purely for presentation then use CSS and apply it as a background image. Obviously there are exceptions to this where you may be using image replacement and in this situation you should provide text within the page that provides an alternative for the image. Looking at the page you've provided, it looks perfectly fine in the way you've applied the rounded corners although as a side issue I would suggest running it through http://validator.w3.org as you've got a few errors (you're using an XHTML doctype so don't forget to close img tags as well as escaping ampersands). ;o) Hope that helps. Dave http://www.dave-woods.co.uk On 26/10/2007, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi again... Whoops...butterfingers I unwittingly hit send before completing my email. Anywise...here is what it should have said: Hi, WCAG 1.0 ( http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/) states: Guideline 1. Provide equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual content Provide content that, when presented to the user, conveys essentially the same function or purpose as auditory or visual content. ... 1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via alt, longdesc, or in element content). This includes: images, graphical representations of text (including symbols), image map regions, animations (e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art, frames, scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds (played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio tracks of video, and video. [Priority 1] I have two questions regarding images added via CSS. 1) I added an image for each bullet via CSS .box ul li. How do I specify alt text in this situation? Do I add alt text in the HTML...even though there would be no image if CSS was disabled? 2) What is the implication (what do I need to do) for purely presenation/aesthetic images? For example on my wife's microsite (that I built) http://phd.london.edu/ygrushkacockayne/ what do I need to do, if anything, for the gifs that form rounded corners on the boxes, via CCS on .box, box2 et cetera? Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Re: WSG Digest
Hi Dave, First off, thanks for the feedback. I do have the Firefox Web Developer tool bar...for some reason the toolsvalidate local accessibility seems to hang...possibly a firewall sisue..i will check on a different network. RE: http://phd.london.edu/ygrushkacockayne/index.html, you said... I would suggest running it through http://validator.w3.org as you've got a few errors (you're using an XHTML doctype so don't forget to close img tags as well as escaping ampersands). ;o) ...please can you elaborate? As far as I can tell this page is valid XHMTL STRICT 1.0. as per: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fphd.london.edu%2Fygrushkacockayne%2Findex.htmlcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlinegroup=0 Dave - I really do appreciate your time and trouble. Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images
If an image is purely for presentation then use CSS and apply it as a background image. I personally don't think of this as some hard-and-fast rule, or even a rule-of-thumb since it's often impractical. I will often apply a decorative or supporting image for visual purposes, but if I have to add classed mark-up (to style it) and a CSS entry for every decorative image on my sites it'd seriously get out-of-hand quicky. I feel it is best to first assess the image which then tells me what to do with it. I did make a blog entry [1] year about this assessment protocol, and I have addressed the topic more generally this year in another entry [2]. Not everyone will agree with these, but it's what I've managed to sort out for myself. To me it makes sense. [1] The Alt and Accessibility http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=81 [2] Adding Embedded Images to a Web Page http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=203 Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
Ok so Rogier says that a en esoteric non-standard version of Firefox gives a MINOR problem in navigaton on our help page.It MIGHT possibly affect perhaps 1 or 2 users out of more than100,000 users. There is no listing of anyone using debian in our OS stats. Which means it's only in the *Other listing. The problem these few users might see doesn't prevent them seeing the site, just makes ONE fo the menu drop downs a LITTLE difficult to use. They can still navigate the site. How much development time do you think that justifies? A day? 2 days? You think we should go get a machine, install debian, and run the problem down? Or just move on to more important problems? Until Rogier mentioned debian I had never even heard of it nor had anyone else I know. It's a NON-ISSUE IF you want to bother with it, good luck to you. But I've already wasted more time than its worth dealing with these emails. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Webmaster, Bluegrass Australia http://bluegrass.org.au Pacific Bluegrass Network - Not a preacher, not an expert but a fan - speaking from the heart. Talking dog on http://Bluegrasscountry.org - We are a Bluegrass Unlimited Reporting Program From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 4:10 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Come off it. Under no circumstance has it ever cost us more to do it right than to do it poorly; shoddy workmanship always results in higher costs. If it is costing you too much to do it right, you are doing more than just your coding wrong. * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] WCAG conformance and checking
i prefer this color contrast analyzer. http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/contrast-analyser.html dwain On 10/26/07, Dave Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, the webdev toolbar for Firefox has direct links to the cynthiasays (WAI) checker and the section 508 checker along with some other useful tools so if you don't already have it, that's a must for all developers. http://chrispederick.com/work/web-developer/ There's also a colour contrast analyzer that's pretty useful for Firefox here http://juicystudio.com/article/colour-contrast-analyser-firefox-extension.php I use these as an initial starting point for testing accessibility but as you've rightly pointed out, these won't guarantee accessibility so manual testing and common sense are much more important once you've performed these initial tests. Hope they help though. Dave http://www.dave-woods.co.uk On 26/10/2007, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I am on a mission to get the microsite that I built for my wife http://phd.london.edu/ygrushkacockayne/ to conform to W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0, available at http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WAI-WEBCONTENT-19990505, level Double-A. I am reading http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/. I realize no automated checking is foolproof...but are there any good automated tools to assist in WCAG conformance checking? ( I hear cynthia mentioned from time to time...any good/any details? Any others? Any good Firefox extensions/plug-ins? Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] WCAG conformance and checking
Yeah, the webdev toolbar for Firefox has direct links to the cynthiasays (WAI) checker and the section 508 checker along with some other useful tools so if you don't already have it, that's a must for all developers. http://chrispederick.com/work/web-developer/ There's also a colour contrast analyzer that's pretty useful for Firefox here http://juicystudio.com/article/colour-contrast-analyser-firefox-extension.php I use these as an initial starting point for testing accessibility but as you've rightly pointed out, these won't guarantee accessibility so manual testing and common sense are much more important once you've performed these initial tests. Hope they help though. Dave http://www.dave-woods.co.uk On 26/10/2007, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I am on a mission to get the microsite that I built for my wife http://phd.london.edu/ygrushkacockayne/ to conform to W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0, available at http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WAI-WEBCONTENT-19990505, level Double-A. I am reading http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/. I realize no automated checking is foolproof...but are there any good automated tools to assist in WCAG conformance checking? ( I hear cynthia mentioned from time to time...any good/any details? Any others? Any good Firefox extensions/plug-ins? Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] WCAG conformance and checking
Hi Simon, I realize no automated checking is foolproof...but are there any good automated tools to assist in WCAG conformance checking? ( I hear cynthia mentioned from time to time...any good/any details? Any others? Any good Firefox extensions/plug-ins? while some guidelines can be checked automatically, others have to be checked manually. Apart from Cynthia, which is ok, I would strongly recommend TAW³, which is available as an online service, a standalone version for download and as a Firefox extension. You will find it at http://www.tawdis.net/taw3/cms/en Cheers, jens -- Jens Brueckmann http://www.yalf.de *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] WCAG conformance and checking
Hi Jen, Ooh...http://www.tawdis.net/taw3/cms/en is nice. Thanks! Simon *** From: Jens Brueckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:21:42 +0200 Subject: Re: [WSG] WCAG conformance and checkingWCAG conformance and checking Hi Simon, I realize no automated checking is foolproof...but are there any good automated tools to assist in WCAG conformance checking? ( I hear cynthia mentioned from time to time...any good/any details? Any others? Any good Firefox extensions/plug-ins? while some guidelines can be checked automatically, others have to be checked manually. Apart from Cynthia, which is ok, I would strongly recommend TAW³, which is available as an online service, a standalone version for download and as a Firefox extension. You will find it at http://www.tawdis.net/taw3/cms/en Cheers, jens -- Jens Brueckmann http://www.yalf.de *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest
Sorry about that, the validator seemed to suggest that you had some image tags that weren't closed and that you were using instead of amp; but having validated it again, it appears fine. Strange. I've had problems with the WAI validator in Firefox sometimes as well, it seems that locally it has problems but once the page is online I tend to find it works alright. On 26/10/2007, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Dave, First off, thanks for the feedback. I do have the Firefox Web Developer tool bar...for some reason the toolsvalidate local accessibility seems to hang...possibly a firewall sisue..i will check on a different network. RE: http://phd.london.edu/ygrushkacockayne/index.html, you said... I would suggest running it through http://validator.w3.org as you've got a few errors (you're using an XHTML doctype so don't forget to close img tags as well as escaping ampersands). ;o) ...please can you elaborate? As far as I can tell this page is valid XHMTL STRICT 1.0. as per: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fphd.london.edu%2Fygrushkacockayne%2Findex.htmlcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlinegroup=0 Dave - I really do appreciate your time and trouble. Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images
This is my view. If an image is for aesthetic purposes, it should be in with the CSS. If an image is to be used as part of the content, for example, the image of your wife, then it should be within img tags. I would say that is common sense to be honest. If you turn of the CSS would you want your users to see images that make no sense in relation to the content, because without the positioning of these images they will displayed in normal flow and leave users scratching their heads. Or lets say a blind person coming across empty alt attributes, or alt attributes that say alt=Rounded corner for the top left header. The WAI have laid out these guidelines for good reason, follow them. Unless there is damn good reason to go against them. Ps. your wife is pretty, she looks like a high achiever James On 10/26/07, Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If an image is purely for presentation then use CSS and apply it as a background image. I personally don't think of this as some hard-and-fast rule, or even a rule-of-thumb since it's often impractical. I will often apply a decorative or supporting image for visual purposes, but if I have to add classed mark-up (to style it) and a CSS entry for every decorative image on my sites it'd seriously get out-of-hand quicky. I feel it is best to first assess the image which then tells me what to do with it. I did make a blog entry [1] year about this assessment protocol, and I have addressed the topic more generally this year in another entry [2]. Not everyone will agree with these, but it's what I've managed to sort out for myself. To me it makes sense. [1] The Alt and Accessibility http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=81 [2] Adding Embedded Images to a Web Page http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=203 Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
On Oct 26, 2007, at 9:21 AM, Michael Kear wrote: Good lord I’m glad you don’t run my development process. Let bloody debian fix their problem! Why should I have to spend MY time fixing things because they don’t get it right??? ... you are not fit to manage a commercial development operation. Please! Enough already! Some people have enough time, energy and dedication to squash every bug. Some people have to deal with considerations. If you don't have something nice to say... Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
I object to this notion that it's shoddy for me to ignore an insignificant number of users. And I resent your assertion that it is. Someone produces a version of some browser and it exists, and just because it exists, somewhere in the world, I'm being shoddy if I don't buy a machine to install that OS, learn about how it works, and then spend however long it takes to make special tweaks so a minor problem goes away for the 1 or 2 people that MIGHT possibly experience the problem? The people who made debian have produced shoddy work. Why do you accuse me of being shoddy?? It's THEM who are shoddy not me. No wonder no one uses it here. Good lord I'm glad you don't run my development process. Let bloody debian fix their problem! Why should I have to spend MY time fixing things because they don't get it right??? This page works fine on every browser and OS we have in our stats.We fixed the problem for those browsers a long time ago and moved on. If you cant see that there has to be some limit to the amount of time you can spend on a project tracking down every last tweak and quirk regardless of whether there are any affected users or not you are not fit to manage a commercial development operation. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com http://afpwebworks.com/ Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 4:10 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Come off it. Under no circumstance has it ever cost us more to do it right than to do it poorly; shoddy workmanship always results in higher costs. If it is costing you too much to do it right, you are doing more than just your coding wrong. On 10/25/07, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your information, Rogier. Doesn't change my thinking though. Firefox with the Firefox logo works how it's supposed to, so there is a difference between the debian thing and the 'real' Firefox. And this difference isn't one we care about. First of all, if there are any users in that category, there isn't more than a handful. Secondly, they don't have to go to this page to use the site. This is separate 'help' information. Thirdly anyone who experiences the problem we were trying to solve can still navigate the site. So yes, it would be good to fix it. But there are far more pressing issues for us to work on and if any user finds they are experiencing the problem this was about, we don't care now, since all the users reflected in our site stats are not experiencing the problem. Cost/benefit once again. Ideally, we'd like the site to have no issues at all. But out of 100,000 users, 1 or 2 (at most!) might not be able to use the drop down menu to navigate out of the self-running demonstration and have to use the back button instead.If debian ever gets to the point in Australia where our users start using it, the cost/benefit ratio might change, at which time we might revisit the decision to move on to other issues. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 5:03 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Mike, Just for your information Iceweasel IS firefox, just with another name (build from the firefox source by the debian team). Because of those stupid American patent laws you can't use a name of software without a logo and because the logo is copyrighted, debian doesn't wants it in their O.S. fyi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceweasel I understand that you have to prioritize how your site works with O.S.' es and browsers, but if you decide to use a plugin like flash you should go for it completely or don't. It's out of the question that users can't navigate your site, just because of some fancy flash. But that's my 2 cents. Rogier. On 25/10/2007, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think its wonderful how, every time I post something to this list, people will rush to tell me how we ought to be spending our scarce development dollars. Christian Montoya, why do you assume that we're so dumb we don't know anything about our customers? We have quite a large number of Firefox customers, but if they're using Firefox, the site works fine. I know because I've tested it in Firefox. I develop with Firefox. My client's testing regime includes Firefox. There were several people on this list who tested it in Firefox and didn't report any
[WSG] How to make DHML cover flash - ADMION - THRERAD CLOSED
ADMIN THREAD CLOSED These sort of comments are not acceptable between members: you are doing more than just your coding wrong you are not fit to manage a commercial development operation Michael and Chris this thread has now been closed as it has deteriorated into an emotional exchange that is benefiting no one. As mentioned yesterday - this list is supposed to be about helping each other. If you have nothing positive, informative or helpful to say, please refrain from sharing it with the list. Please do not reply to this thread at all! Thanks Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] WCAG conformance and checking
You might like: http://www.wave.webaim.org/index.jsp as a graphic aid. On Fri, October 26, 2007 1:22 pm, Simon Cockayne wrote: Hi Jen, Ooh...http://www.tawdis.net/taw3/cms/en is nice. Thanks! Simon *** From: Jens Brueckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:21:42 +0200 Subject: Re: [WSG] WCAG conformance and checkingWCAG conformance and checking Hi Simon, I realize no automated checking is foolproof...but are there any good automated tools to assist in WCAG conformance checking? ( I hear cynthia mentioned from time to time...any good/any details? Any others? Any good Firefox extensions/plug-ins? while some guidelines can be checked automatically, others have to be checked manually. Apart from Cynthia, which is ok, I would strongly recommend TAW³, which is available as an online service, a standalone version for download and as a Firefox extension. You will find it at http://www.tawdis.net/taw3/cms/en Cheers, jens -- Jens Brueckmann http://www.yalf.de *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
What's wrong with your Debian server? Regards, Mark Hedley Voxia Web Development Solutions Mobile: +44 07894 009 932 Office: +44 01670 840 752 Web: http://www.voxia.co.uk/ http://www.voxia.co.uk Proud Members of: GAWDS (Guild of Accessible Web Designers) | Web Standards Group | Independent Web Developers Portal | HTML Writers Guild From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: 26 October 2007 14:38 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash On Oct 26, 2007, at 9:21 AM, Michael Kear wrote: Good lord I'm glad you don't run my development process. Let bloody debian fix their problem! Why should I have to spend MY time fixing things because they don't get it right??? ... you are not fit to manage a commercial development operation. Please! Enough already! Some people have enough time, energy and dedication to squash every bug. Some people have to deal with considerations. If you don't have something nice to say... Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images
James Jeffery wrote: This is my view. If an image is for aesthetic purposes, it should be in with the CSS. If an image is to be used as part of the content, for example, the image of your wife, then it should be within img tags. I would say that is common sense to be honest. If you turn of the CSS would you want your users to see images that make no sense in relation to the content, because without the positioning of these images they will displayed in normal flow and leave users scratching their heads. Or lets say a blind person coming across empty alt attributes, or alt attributes that say alt=Rounded corner for the top left header. The WAI have laid out these guidelines for good reason, follow them. Unless there is damn good reason to go against them. Ps. your wife is pretty, she looks like a high achiever James Except, James, that folk who make elastic layouts very often want the aesthetics (graphics) to expand along with the text etc. This is not a problem if you size the graphics in em units, but of course you can't do that with backgrounds. ?? Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accessible calendars? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] accessible calendars? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:10/26/2007 12:17:39 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accessible calendars? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Not sure if this is any help Leon, its a link to a tutorial for a CSS based calendar which you can probably tweak to fit your needs and standards. http://csshowto.com/layout/making-a-css-based-calender/ rgds Paul Leon Wild wrote: Hi all, Can anyone recommend a standards compliant, calendar application for a website? Cheers, Leon Leon Wild :: Web Manager :: Human Rights Commission :: ph +61 2 9284 9698 :: email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WARNING: The information contained in this email may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use or copying of any part of this information is unauthorised. If you have received this email in error, we apologise for any inconvenience and request that you notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this email, together with any attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images
Except, James, that folk who make elastic layouts very often want the aesthetics (graphics) to expand along with the text etc. This is not a problem if you size the graphics in em units, but of course you can't do that with backgrounds. ?? Bob backgrounds can be positioned using relative units. you can't set the size, but you can set the size of whatever element in the html you attach them to. what i think you're talking about i would handle by making a larger image, then i would choose what part i want to show normally, what the focus would be. i would then set the height and/or width of the element i am attaching the background image to using ems, and then specify the background position using percentages. that way, as the text is expanding, so is the canvas that the image is on, so you see more image, but the focus of the image remains at whatever i initially chose because i used the percentages to keep it there despite resizing the box. play around with it and see what you get. i think it is discussed in a few different books as well. take care, jm *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
