[WSG] new layout for a table
I hope my subject isn't misleading. I have a set of data (specifically news postings) placed in table cells with a header row describing the content. I basically have four columns: poster, date, subject, body. Each news post has its own row. Now, I don't want the table to be shown as a tabulated list, obviously. What I want to do is reorganize the contents of each row into a nicely laid-out box. The idea is to keep the data tabulated, (and have it be read out properly by the likes of a screen reader or text browser) yet still be able to reorganize it into different layouts. In this particular case (for the base stylesheet), I want each row of the data to be shown in its own box and all its contents reorganized for a more pleasing look. I recently saw this demonstrated on a website (probably one maintained by someone on this list), and I've lost the link. Any help? -- -- Charles "grey wolf" Banas * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] Relative Fonts
> OK - so is there a formula to work out PX to EM ? (at least on a > "vanilla" type of setup). In theory, on the standard browser ;-(IE6 on windows) the default font size is 12 pixels so in that case 1em = 12 pixels. Or it should be until you start playing with it with font-size=76%. But for some reason using font-size=76% 1em = 12px and 60em = 720px with text-size medium. If you use text-size smallest 1em = 9px and text-size largest 1em = 18px. > And I am not sure what you were saying in the line that had > (60em) in it. I use a container div 60em wide to hold all my content. That way no content is wider than 60ems 720px. Max size for a 800 by 600 screen at text size medium.. > On the JavaScript front. that is something I want to > avoid. I was not even sure I could play around with the font size in > JavaScript - but I would not consider this to be "standard". Just playing with the style font-size in the body tag. Try and finish this later got a couple of nasty problems to solve. Nick * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] Re: IE with Gecko Was: Relative Fonts (Away from Office)
I'll be on leave until the 20th April. If you have any urgent queries please contact Michelle Cardey on 9266 7807 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] or contact Kenneth Eu on 9266 4517 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Peter Galipo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] Re: IE with Gecko Was: Relative Fonts
Is there no program which replaces the Internet Explorer render engine with the Gecko engine? I thought about copying firefox.exe to replace iexplore.exe just to see if I could use Gecko for active desktop :) I then thought it was a BadIdea. As IE is fairly closed source, it would prove rather difficult (if not impossible) to replace the rendering engine with that of another browser. At the risk of going extremely off topic (and if anyone wants to continue this line of discussion I request we do it off list), one could probably reverse engineer the libraries that all the IE components call upon and provide the same function calls with the same data constraints, but it's no simple task trying to rebuild IE and it's probably going to violate an uncountable number of license agreements and laws while coming up with a product that will almost undoubtedly wind up being even buggier than what we already have - so it's just not worth trying. It really belongs on a C/C++ list relating to IE/Win32 internals and not here though. -- /--\ |Adam Carmichael, A+, 2xMCP (Windows 2000), Cert IV Helpdesk Admin | |[EMAIL PROTECTED] /( _,-,_ )\ _| |_ /,|| | |#1 Computer Services \`/ \'/ _| |_|| | |BSD/UNIX & Cisco Network Engineer\ /,\ /,\ /| |_||_ | \--/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] tantek high_pass & @import
Thanks thats what i was looking for, i think Mariah sang it best- "then a hero comes along" thanks again From: "Kay Smoljak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [WSG] tantek high_pass & @import Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:45:01 +1000 > Im wondering if there's a way to block out IE 5 > Windows but not IE5.5? Microsoft built a covenient IE-only hack into their browser engine - conditional comments. Check em out here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/ccomment_ovw.asp Essentially, you put in code like this: Everything else thinks it's a comment (actually it is) but IE will parse it. And you can certainly use that to target IE 5 but not 5.5... K. --- Kay Smoljak Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/ Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help * _ Protect your inbox from harmful viruses with new ninemsn Premium. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/premium/landing.asp?banner=emailtag&referrer=hotmail * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] EM's vs % (was: Relative Fonts)
> [1] http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsingEms That is very kewl Russ. At least gives me something to think about in terms of "fixing" some of the issues I am experiencing (but didnt mention in my original blather). But, I have to say, it is the inconsistencies such as this that make adopting standards across the board a difficult task (when trying to convince others it is a good thing). Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 To unsubscribe from this email please forward this email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited (ABN 49 010 669 726 AFSL 235410) A Participant of ASX Group * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] Relative Fonts
> I use em for all measurements (except images). > So those column widths are not 200px but 16.7em. > With a fixed width page (60em) long lines of text ie 80+ characters per line are difficult to read. OK - so is there a formula to work out PX to EM ? (at least on a "vanilla" type of setup). And I am not sure what you were saying in the line that had (60em) in it. On the JavaScript front. that is something I want to avoid. I was not even sure I could play around with the font size in JavaScript - but I would not consider this to be "standard". And, in any case, the user can supplant my stylesheet with one of their own (and that would be even uglier than turning off stylesheets alltogether). At least I have tried to lay out the pages so they will degrade reasonably with no stylesheet. I would not like to see what would happen if the user used a stylesheet of their own. The "A+ and a-" bit you mean some JavaScript trickery to size the fonts and place some "bean" in their cookies that my JS uses as a seed for a starting size? Again - don't like the idea of all that JS to play with something that is (obviously) getting too close to "Don't change what the browser does". That being the case - I might as well go with PX and be done with it (not saying I will - but saying that if I have to do all of the above to get back the control then I might as well make my life a lot easier and go with fixed sizes). Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 To unsubscribe from this email please forward this email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited (ABN 49 010 669 726 AFSL 235410) A Participant of ASX Group * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] Re: IE with Gecko Was: Relative Fonts
> Understand your plite, its what we all face every day, one day it will all > be easy. Every browser will render STANDARD code be it HTML, > XHTML, CSS in the same way on any platform. They will even execute > JavaDcript in the same way and follow the same DOM. > > Then again they may not! Is there no program which replaces the Internet Explorer render engine with the Gecko engine? That would solve a lot of problems and people who insist on using the IE interface can still use it, while they benefit from the much better Gecko engine with (full?) web standards support. I was thinking to put such news (IE 6.1 will use Gecko) on my private site as an aprils fool =) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] Relative Fonts
Gary asked > So - what does everyone do? I use em for all measurements (except images). So those column widths are not 200px but 16.7em. With a fixed width page (60em) long lines of text ie 80+ characters per line are difficult to read. Use a little bit of javascript to set the inital font size (and everything elses size) 76% for screens under 1000 pixels wide and 101% for screens wider than 1000 pixels. (OK that will upset a few people, but we are working on the great unwashed masses who do not know or care how to change font sizes) and no JS means 76%. Give people the opportunity to change font sizes with buttons A+ and a- (+10% and -10% respectively) and that info is held by a cookie (again an evil bit of javascript ;-). Nick * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] EM's vs % (was: Relative Fonts)
Gary, Relative font sizes can also be done using percents as well as em's and this solution is recommended by the CSS discuss wiki for font scaling under 100% [1]. The Maxdesign site you mention is sadly in need of major restructuring and recoding. I used to do navigation in pixels and all other content in percents. I now believe this is a fools paradise as there is basically no safety (and no need) in fixed font sizes. Almost all mac browsers will rescale any text on the page with simple keystrokes - regardless of whether they are fixed or relative. The same is true for Win/N7 and Win/Moz1.4. Without sounding like a fortune cookie (as I often do), I think a lot of this comes down to designing layouts with a flexibly mindset - the assumption that the user has control over many of the aspects of the layout. As always, just personal opinion... :) Russ [1] http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsingEms > > There are obviously times when you decide to comprimise on these things > (Russ' Max Design site uses a mixture of relative and non-relative fonts). > > I have never used % for fonts (only pt and em). > > > Once again - "pointers" and "best practice" advice would be welcomed. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] EM's vs % (was: Relative Fonts)
> ... often making "smallest" unreadable and "largest" absolutely massive. if you use %'s to define font sizes > the extreme variations are reduced and you may find you dont get as many compaints. Yes - know what you mean about "largest" to "smallest" - Mozilla has much finer grained control. Regarding using % vs EM's though.. wouldn't that be even more inaccurate in terms of actually knowing what would happen to your layout during sizing? I have never used % for fonts (only pt and em). Once again - "pointers" and "best practice" advice would be welcomed. Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 To unsubscribe from this email please forward this email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited (ABN 49 010 669 726 AFSL 235410) A Participant of ASX Group * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] Relative Fonts
> We've faced this as well, particularly with the Perth International Arts > Festival, and we just decided to politely educate each user who complained about what their problem was and why it was better > the way we'd done it. Time consuming, but after the first couple it was all cut and paste anyway. While this was obviously what we had to do (in answer to the above - and to the other suggestions/questions about "educating" the users) I am still at a loss as to how I get information that will only just fit into an available space (e.g. 200px) to be "aesthetic" and "functional" and to not "break" when upsized (downsized is less of a problem as it wont hit the widht barrier - if they can read it smaller than the default presentation size then their eyesight is better than mine). There are obviously times when you decide to comprimise on these things (Russ' Max Design site uses a mixture of relative and non-relative fonts). I am looking for some "pointers" or "rules of thumb" to know when to use and when to NOT use relative fonts. Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 To unsubscribe from this email please forward this email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited (ABN 49 010 669 726 AFSL 235410) A Participant of ASX Group * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] Relative Fonts
Title: RE: [WSG] Relative Fonts Kay wrote: we just decided to politely educate each user who complained about what their problem was and why it was better the way we'd done it. Time consuming, but after the first couple it was all cut and paste anyway. ditto here. i had a similar experience once and fired off a standard reply to a few hundred readers. the response to that from readers was unanimously bordering on overjoyed for passing on that info. made my day :) incidently, and this may be common knowledge, but if you assign your font sizes with em's the font size controls in IE have a compounding effect - often making "smallest" unreadable and "largest" absolutely massive. if you use %'s to define font sizes the extreme variations are reduced and you may find you dont get as many compaints. pete Peter Ottery Head of Design f2 Network (02) 8596 4450 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.f2.com.au
Re: [WSG] tantek high_pass & @import
> Im wondering if there's a way to block out IE 5 > Windows but not IE5.5? Microsoft built a covenient IE-only hack into their browser engine - conditional comments. Check em out here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/ccomment_ovw.asp Essentially, you put in code like this: Everything else thinks it's a comment (actually it is) but IE will parse it. And you can certainly use that to target IE 5 but not 5.5... K. --- Kay Smoljak Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/ Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] Problem and can't validate
Title: Problem and can't validate
Well I
solved that by setting width: 49% instead of 50%, still wondering why that is
though - I am guessing it has something to do with both divs being bigger than
50% somehow ??
-Original Message-From: Taco Fleur Sent:
Wednesday, 7 April 2004 1:17 PMTo: Web Standards Group
(E-mail)Subject: [WSG] Problem and can't
validate
Sorry I can't validate my content, due to it being
on the intranet and it's a CMS that most likely will not validate
anyway.
Can anyone see why my top two columns "dailyNews"
and "majorAnnouncements" do not display inline? Everything within #quicklinks displays perfect, applying the same code
to #latest does not give me the desired result.
conObj = createObject("component", "shado_obj_containers");
#quickLink #header
{
background-color: rgb(109, 168, 2);
display: block;
padding: 6px;
color:
#fff;
font-weight: bold;
letter-spacing: 1px;
margin-top: 12px;
margin-bottom: 8px;
}
#quickLink column1, #quickLink column2, #quickLink
column3
{
background-color: #000;
}
#quickLink #container
{
background-color: rgb(231, 236, 216);
}
#quickLink #container
div
{
display: inline;
width: 33%;
padding: 4px;
color: rgb(39, 76, 82);
vertical-align: top;
}
#latest div
{
display: inline;
width:
50%;
}
conObj.addcontainer2page(1, "Daily News",
container2edit);conObj.addcontainer2page(2, "Major
Announcements", container2edit);
QuickLinks
172dffdfdfd3
RE: [WSG] Relative Fonts
> So when > we launched our new site we had HUNDREDS (not exaggerating - > they are all logged) of complaints about the font size being > "too small" or "too big" because they did not have their font > size set to "medium" (and there doesn't appear to be a way to > detect what the setting is - probably because it is not "standard"). We've faced this as well, particularly with the Perth International Arts Festival, and we just decided to politely educate each user who complained about what their problem was and why it was better the way we'd done it. Time consuming, but after the first couple it was all cut and paste anyway. A lot of people actually apologised for complaining, some thanked us for telling them about the resizing feature, one even switched to Mozilla. Am I gonna re-educate the entire internet population, one complaint letter at a time? Probably not! But I felt better about those that I did respond to. Of course, many people simply don't complain... K. --- Kay Smoljak Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/ Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] Problem and can't validate
Title: Problem and can't validate
Sorry I can't validate my content, due to it being on the intranet and it's a CMS that most likely will not validate anyway.
Can anyone see why my top two columns "dailyNews" and "majorAnnouncements" do not display inline?
Everything within #quicklinks displays perfect, applying the same code to #latest does not give me the desired result.
conObj = createObject("component", "shado_obj_containers");
#quickLink #header
{
background-color: rgb(109, 168, 2);
display: block;
padding: 6px;
color: #fff;
font-weight: bold;
letter-spacing: 1px;
margin-top: 12px;
margin-bottom: 8px;
}
#quickLink column1, #quickLink column2, #quickLink column3
{
background-color: #000;
}
#quickLink #container
{
background-color: rgb(231, 236, 216);
}
#quickLink #container div
{
display: inline;
width: 33%;
padding: 4px;
color: rgb(39, 76, 82);
vertical-align: top;
}
#latest div
{
display: inline;
width: 50%;
}
conObj.addcontainer2page(1, "Daily News", container2edit);conObj.addcontainer2page(2, "Major Announcements", container2edit);
QuickLinks
172dffdfdfd3
Re: [WSG] tantek high_pass & @import
Thanks Cameron but i've been there, all the hacks blok the CSS form other
versions and platforms- next please
From: Cameron Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] tantek high_pass & @import
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 19:54:53 -0700 (PDT)
I'm sure you can find a hack here:
http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/
--
Cameron Adams
W: www.themaninblue.com
--- 7 sinz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi
> Im wondering if there's a way to block out IE 5
> Windows but not IE5.5?
>
> At the moment im using high_pass filter. Is there
> another way? without
> effecting anyother version/or platforms?.
>
> by the way- is it ok to use something like this.
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> url("high_pass.css");-->
>
> @import and high_pass? what will version of borwsers
> will be effected with
> this?
>
> thanks in advance
>
>
_
> Personalise your mobile chart ringtones and
> polyphonics. Go to
>
http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
>
>
*
> The discussion list for
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>
*
>
>
__
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*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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*
_
Personalise your mobile chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*
RE: [WSG] Relative Fonts
> There are issues though > > * Embedded WYSIWYG editors are still very immature when it > comes to XHTML and CSS (our CMS lets us plug in lots of > editors but most of them lack something in some way or other) > so enforcing the use of EM's is flawed (at best). Some of > the editors support the use of stylesheets and I suppose that > is a path I could go down - but fully compliant XHTML is > still difficult given that most editors still allow hand > editing (and you do still need that because the HTML world is > not perfect). Some of it may size - some of it may not. Totally agree. I usually opt for a separate WYSIWYG stylesheet for the editor using fixed pixel font sizes (if supported), or, in the case of ShadoMX (which uses a JavaScript/DOM based editor by default), I'll detect "edit" mode, wrap the editor in a DIV and have defined rules for all html elements within that div. Not pretty (as you end up with a massive CSS file) but it works. > * Lots of people out there don't even know their Browser has > the ability to control font size in a relative way. So when > we launched our new site we had HUNDREDS (not exagerating - > they are all logged) of complaints about the font size being > "too small" or "too big" because they did not have their font > size set to "medium" (and there doesn't appear to be a way to > detect what the setting is - probably because it is not "standard"). > And, if you have a mouse with a scroll wheel, it is very easy > for the size to change when you are on a "fixed size" page > and not realise it. Put it into perspective. You *slightly* inconvenienced a few hundred (relatively clueless) users. The alternative (fixed font sizes) would have DENIED access to hundreds (if not thousands) of users (read:customers) with poor eye sight. No comparison in my book. Besides (assuming you replied to those few hundred users), you've done them a favour by educating them on a feature they knew nothing about and hopefully put in a quick blurb about ABN AMRO Morgan's dedication to accessibility :P > * Some (more likely than less) designs just CANNOT be > implemented using only relative fonts. Say you want to have > a fixed 200px wide column on the right hand side and a > "stretchy" column in the middle. The content on the right > hand side HAS to be designed to "look" right in that 200px > space. So that means you cannot really use relative font > sizes if you are filling the 200px space. If they size it up > - it wont fit and will look stupid. So this then defeats the > purpose of using relative fonts at all - because, when they > DO upsize the font, part of the page will size and part of it > wont. Just go to some of the "well known" CSS/XHTML > standards-based sites (wont mention any names) and you will > find that not every part of the page sizes - but is this > right? What if the bit that is "too small" > for my eyes (e.g. the Menu) is the bit that the designer has > in a fixed font ? Only thing you can do in this situation is design your templates to accommodate a 1-2 notch font size change. It's not always an option of course (depending on design requirements). So I guess that's where some developers resort back to pixel sizes. Personally, I never bother. Function over form I guess. If it breaks then so be it. At least the user will still be able to read your content. > Relative font sizes ruin good design. A bold statement. How about: "Fixed font sizes reduce your potential audience" Just as valid (if not more so), no? Cheers, James Silva Web Production Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: +61 02 9956 6388 Fax: +61 02 9956 8433 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] Relative Fonts
Given the ignorance of some of your users, I'd assume they were using IE. But remember, there's no such thing as fixed font design anymore. Mozilla, Safari et al all resize fonts irrespective of units. -- Cameron Adams W: www.themaninblue.com --- Gary Menzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't consider myself a guru on web standards > (specifically XHTML/CSS) > but am learning and getting better. > > I like standards. I dont like how they aren't > uniformly supported (and am > not really concerned about getting into another > Browser Wars thread). > > But I am having some issues with Relative Fonts (you > know the EM's). > > I understand them. Know why it is good to use them. > And have built the > "templates" (header/footer wrappers) for our site > with EM's. > > There are issues though > > * Embedded WYSIWYG editors are still very immature > when it comes to XHTML > and CSS (our CMS lets us plug in lots of editors but > most of them lack > something in some way or other) so enforcing the use > of EM's is flawed (at > best). Some of the editors support the use of > stylesheets and I suppose > that is a path I could go down - but fully compliant > XHTML is still > difficult given that most editors still allow hand > editing (and you do > still need that because the HTML world is not > perfect). Some of it may > size - some of it may not. > > * Lots of people out there don't even know their > Browser has the ability > to control font size in a relative way. So when we > launched our new site > we had HUNDREDS (not exagerating - they are all > logged) of complaints > about the font size being "too small" or "too big" > because they did not > have their font size set to "medium" (and there > doesn't appear to be a way > to detect what the setting is - probably because it > is not "standard"). > And, if you have a mouse with a scroll wheel, it is > very easy for the size > to change when you are on a "fixed size" page and > not realise it. > > * Some (more likely than less) designs just CANNOT > be implemented using > only relative fonts. Say you want to have a fixed > 200px wide column on > the right hand side and a "stretchy" column in the > middle. The content on > the right hand side HAS to be designed to "look" > right in that 200px > space. So that means you cannot really use relative > font sizes if you are > filling the 200px space. If they size it up - it > wont fit and will look > stupid. So this then defeats the purpose of using > relative fonts at all - > because, when they DO upsize the font, part of the > page will size and part > of it wont. Just go to some of the "well known" > CSS/XHTML standards-based > sites (wont mention any names) and you will find > that not every part of > the page sizes - but is this right? What if the bit > that is "too small" > for my eyes (e.g. the Menu) is the bit that the > designer has in a fixed > font ? > > > Lots of reasons to go back to fixed point sizes. > > > So - what does everyone do? > > > As I said, I know how EM's work, what they are for, > why you would use them > and am not asking about that - but I am just about > ready to go back to > fixed point sizes. I always thought I was just a > "tech head" programmer > but the designer in me is coming out and the > "aesthetics" of sites are > starting to assert themselves rather strongly. > Relative font sizes ruin > good design. > > > > Gary Menzel > Web Development Manager > IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited > Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 > PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 > > > To unsubscribe from this email please forward this > email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > If this communication is not intended for you and > you are not an authorised recipient of this email > you are prohibited by law from dealing with or > relying on the email or any file attachments. This > prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, > re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any > other way dealing or acting in reliance on the > information. If you have received this email in > error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans > Limited immediately by returning the email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. > We will refund any reasonable costs associated with > notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is > confidential and may contain privileged client > information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable > steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all > its communications, including electronic > communications, but accepts no liability for > materials transmitted. Materials may also be > transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO > Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and > employees do not accept liability for the results of > any actions taken or not on the basis of the > information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited > and its associates hold or may hold securities in > the companies/trusts mentioned herei
Re: [WSG] tantek high_pass & @import
I'm sure you can find a hack here:
http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/
--
Cameron Adams
W: www.themaninblue.com
--- 7 sinz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi
> Im wondering if there's a way to block out IE 5
> Windows but not IE5.5?
>
> At the moment im using high_pass filter. Is there
> another way? without
> effecting anyother version/or platforms?.
>
> by the way- is it ok to use something like this.
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> url("high_pass.css");-->
>
> @import and high_pass? what will version of borwsers
> will be effected with
> this?
>
> thanks in advance
>
>
_
> Personalise your mobile chart ringtones and
> polyphonics. Go to
>
http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
>
>
*
> The discussion list for
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>
*
>
>
__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*
Re: [WSG] Relative Fonts
Hi Gary * Understand your plite, its what we all face every day, one day it will all be easy. Every browser will render STANDARD code be it HTML, XHTML, CSS in the same way on any platform. They will even execute JavaDcript in the same way and follow the same DOM. Then again they may not! Gary G * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] Relative Fonts
I don't consider myself a guru on web standards (specifically XHTML/CSS) but am learning and getting better. I like standards. I dont like how they aren't uniformly supported (and am not really concerned about getting into another Browser Wars thread). But I am having some issues with Relative Fonts (you know the EM's). I understand them. Know why it is good to use them. And have built the "templates" (header/footer wrappers) for our site with EM's. There are issues though * Embedded WYSIWYG editors are still very immature when it comes to XHTML and CSS (our CMS lets us plug in lots of editors but most of them lack something in some way or other) so enforcing the use of EM's is flawed (at best). Some of the editors support the use of stylesheets and I suppose that is a path I could go down - but fully compliant XHTML is still difficult given that most editors still allow hand editing (and you do still need that because the HTML world is not perfect). Some of it may size - some of it may not. * Lots of people out there don't even know their Browser has the ability to control font size in a relative way. So when we launched our new site we had HUNDREDS (not exagerating - they are all logged) of complaints about the font size being "too small" or "too big" because they did not have their font size set to "medium" (and there doesn't appear to be a way to detect what the setting is - probably because it is not "standard"). And, if you have a mouse with a scroll wheel, it is very easy for the size to change when you are on a "fixed size" page and not realise it. * Some (more likely than less) designs just CANNOT be implemented using only relative fonts. Say you want to have a fixed 200px wide column on the right hand side and a "stretchy" column in the middle. The content on the right hand side HAS to be designed to "look" right in that 200px space. So that means you cannot really use relative font sizes if you are filling the 200px space. If they size it up - it wont fit and will look stupid. So this then defeats the purpose of using relative fonts at all - because, when they DO upsize the font, part of the page will size and part of it wont. Just go to some of the "well known" CSS/XHTML standards-based sites (wont mention any names) and you will find that not every part of the page sizes - but is this right? What if the bit that is "too small" for my eyes (e.g. the Menu) is the bit that the designer has in a fixed font ? Lots of reasons to go back to fixed point sizes. So - what does everyone do? As I said, I know how EM's work, what they are for, why you would use them and am not asking about that - but I am just about ready to go back to fixed point sizes. I always thought I was just a "tech head" programmer but the designer in me is coming out and the "aesthetics" of sites are starting to assert themselves rather strongly. Relative font sizes ruin good design. Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 To unsubscribe from this email please forward this email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited (ABN 49 010 669 726 AFSL 235410) A Participant of ASX Group * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/g
[WSG] tantek high_pass & @import
Hi
Im wondering if there's a way to block out IE 5 Windows but not IE5.5?
At the moment im using high_pass filter. Is there another way? without
effecting anyother version/or platforms?.
by the way- is it ok to use something like this.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
url("high_pass.css");-->
@import and high_pass? what will version of borwsers will be effected with
this?
thanks in advance
_
Personalise your mobile chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*
Re: [WSG] Re: List Left Margin
I understand nothing of your sentance > Comrades > > You lucky Ozzies! > > The only I get like THAT are from sheep! > > Malarkey > www.malarkey.co.uk > www.karova.com > > *** > > >> Geeze Russ, aren't you married? > > http://www.browsercam.com/projects/56771/930830.jpg > > -- > Cameron Adams > > W: www.themaninblue.com > > * > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > * > > > Benjamin Life through a polaroid www.lifethroughapolaroid.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] Re: List Left Margin
M weird. Is Browsercam branching out into new services? Apologies all. I should have checked all screenshots before sending the link. I will do so in future. :) Russ > Geeze Russ, aren't you married? > > http://www.browsercam.com/projects/56771/930830.jpg > > -- > Cameron Adams > > W: www.themaninblue.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] Re: List Left Margin
Comrades You lucky Ozzies! The only I get like THAT are from sheep! Malarkey www.malarkey.co.uk www.karova.com *** >> Geeze Russ, aren't you married? http://www.browsercam.com/projects/56771/930830.jpg -- Cameron Adams W: www.themaninblue.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] Re: List Left Margin
Geeze Russ, aren't you married? http://www.browsercam.com/projects/56771/930830.jpg -- Cameron Adams W: www.themaninblue.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] left margins on lists
Barb,
This is a bit hard to answer as I don't know if you are talking about a
standard list or a list with graphics.
I'll assume you men standard html lists...
Standard HTML lists have a certain amount of left-indentation. The amount
varies on each browser. Some browsers use padding (from memory Mozilla,
Netscape, Safari) and others use margins (Internet Explorer, Opera) to set
the amount of indentation.
If you want to have your html bullets appear on the very left edge of a
containing box, you also have to deal with the different units browsers use
to indent the list. Ideally they would all use ems. Then you could do this:
ul
{
padding-left: 0;
margin-left: 1em;
}
This gives:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/listpadding.htm
The results across browers can be seen here (not good):
http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=56771
As you can see, some browsers seem to use pixels rather than ems, so the
rule set would be:
ul
{
padding-left: 0;
margin-left: 16px;
}
The safest solution (if bullet and list content placement is critical) is to
remove standard bullets and replace them with background images - then you
have absolute control across all standards compliant browsers. More here:
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/
hth
Russ
> This may be a really stupid question, but I've searched high and low and
> can't find the answer. Is there any way to set the left margin on a
> list? I'm not talking about the space between the bullet and the list
> item, but the space to the left of the bullet graphic.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Barb
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*
Re: [WSG] left margins on lists
Set the margin for the ul, not the li. - Jeremy Flint www.jeremyflint.com Barbara Dozetos wrote: This may be a really stupid question, but I've searched high and low and can't find the answer. Is there any way to set the left margin on a list? I'm not talking about the space between the bullet and the list item, but the space to the left of the bullet graphic. Thanks in advance. Barb * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] left margins on lists
This may be a really stupid question, but I've searched high and low and can't find the answer. Is there any way to set the left margin on a list? I'm not talking about the space between the bullet and the list item, but the space to the left of the bullet graphic. Thanks in advance. Barb -- Barbara Dozetos [EMAIL PROTECTED] Physician's Computer CompanyMarketing Team 1 Main St., Ste 7 802-846-5532 Winooski, VT 05404 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] IE6 rendering error. anyone knows the cause?
My bad - there was one extra div closing tag that was causing the problem. After tweaking with the spacing for the past hour or so, I think it's finally done. My apologies for clogging the list! But, if you notice anything else wrong, give a hollar. :) > I whipped up a portal page for the new Psychology site this morning [site > is launched in a complete version now @ > http://www.psyc.jmu.edu/undergraduate). There is one error that I can't > shake off in IE6 for the portal page ~ there is a 10pixel-ish white bar > above the footer on the outside of the box. I don't know what's putting it > there, but it lines up with a div in the code called "rightcontent". Is it > an error on my part or IE's part, and how do I go about getting rid of it? > > page~ http://www.psyc.jmu.edu/index.html > css~ http://www.psyc.jmu.edu/general.css > > Cheers~ -- Ryan Christie [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.theward.net * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] IE6 rendering error. anyone knows the cause?
I whipped up a portal page for the new Psychology site this morning [site is launched in a complete version now @ http://www.psyc.jmu.edu/undergraduate). There is one error that I can't shake off in IE6 for the portal page ~ there is a 10pixel-ish white bar above the footer on the outside of the box. I don't know what's putting it there, but it lines up with a div in the code called "rightcontent". Is it an error on my part or IE's part, and how do I go about getting rid of it? page~ http://www.psyc.jmu.edu/index.html css~ http://www.psyc.jmu.edu/general.css Cheers~ -- Ryan Christie [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.theward.net * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] Article - The Way Forward with Web Standards
Not sure if it's been pointed to: By MACCAWS: "MACCAWS' mission is to provide Web authors with the resources necessary to promote Web standards as a commercially desirable choice for clients." http://www.maccaws.org/kit/way-forward/ Nick * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] This months Web Standards Award winner
http://www.webstandardsawards.com/previous/jason_santa_maria.html A well deserved winner! There is also a nomination at weekly standards, although Adam Howell seems to have replaced his usual detailed analysis with comments like: "So, in closing. Tables are the work of Satan spawn hellfire. Light blues and ample whitespace make the world go 'round. Standards, standards, standards. CSS, CSS, CSS." http://www.weeklystandards.com/archives/2004/04/05/index.php Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] Icons
Sven Jacobs wrote: I want to show the visitors of my site that I care about web standards and put an effort into making my website comply to these standards. ... Is there any "official" website where all these icons are collected? http://www.antipixel.com/blog/archives/2002/10/22/ steal_these_buttons.html Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] Feedback on site :: color red
Cheryl Perkins wrote: What can I say? The surgeon who hired me insisted on red. I think he'd have liked it entirely in red. I actually offered a couple different colour schemes in blues and greens, which happen to be my favourite colours, but there was no interest in them at all. I know it's difficult with clients, but you're building a site for the users, not a single person. It's very nice that your client prefers red (probably because he's up to his arms in that colour all day), but what message is it sending out to the users? The thing to do is go back to your original spec and look at the goals you're client set for the job. Then you need to discuss the colour scheme in terms of those goals and not his personal preference. Golden rule. Ban subjectivity from the decision making process. I'm going to try out some of the changes in the shades of red suggested by other posters, though, Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
