Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-17 Thread Breton Slivka
Microsoft is and has undoubtedly used the coercive power of their
market dominance to interfere with OTHER businesses. What you are
presenting here is a double standard. You are saying that governments
(whose accountability is to the benefit of the public at large) should
not be allowed to interfere, while it's perfectly okay for a private
organization, (whose accountability is to its shareholders) to
interfere with other people's property. For the most part, yes,
healthy competition is a good thing, but the system can get sick, and
exploitive, and it's precisely that situation that the government
exists for to begin with- to protect the interests of the public.

And in this case, getting IE to support standards is to the benefit of
the public, because Microsoft is certainly impeding progress in this
field, much to the detriment of everyone, but to the benefit of its
own business. That my friend is private interfering with public, and
that's where your free market utopia falls down.



On Dec 17, 2007 1:17 PM, Michael Horowitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Again this isn't about supporting one company over another.  It's about
 using the coercive power of government to control someone elses private
 property (which is what a business is)

 I don't like a lot of how MSFT does things.  But they don't control the
 world.  Frontpage died while Dreamweaver dominates the web design
 market.  Not every website is developed in Visual Studio, some of us use
 PHP.
 Not every email is sent on an exchange server.

 I use Vista today and believe if MSFT keeps making such bloated OS's
 someone else will show up one day with a better mousetrap and MSFT will
 find itself losing market share in that area as well.

 Ask yourself where have you ever seen government controlled economies
 beat a free market one.

 Michael Horowitz
 Your Computer Consultant
 http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
 561-394-9079



 Christian Montoya wrote:
  On Dec 16, 2007 8:27 PM, Michael Horowitz
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Look how Firefox has grown to 16% of the market.  I think that shows how
  you are not correct.  I also suspect that Open Office is going to start
  challenging Microsoft as well. Especially is MSFT succeeds with
  establishing good copy protection
 
 
  Didn't OOo file a complaint regarding Microsoft's Open XML format? I
  know they started a petition because Microsoft bucked their ODT format
  and came up with their own, which has been rammed through the
  standards approval process instead of ODT.
 
  So even Microsoft plays the standards system, and OOo appeals to the
  same powers-that-be as Opera.
 
  Do you follow the news about the companies you support?
 
 



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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-17 Thread Rob Crowther

Michael Horowitz wrote:
In the free market their tends to be high and low quality products 


It's not a free market, it's a market for lemons.

Rob


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[WSG] Lisa Kerrigan/StateDevPolicy/DSD is out of the office.

2007-12-17 Thread lisa . kerrigan

I will be out of the office starting  17/12/2007 and will not return until
20/12/2007.

For content requests, contact Matt Myers (9651 9128)

For other web-related issues contact Clarissa Macdonald (9651 9321) or Mick
Doherty (9651 9426)

Regards


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust ... ADMIN

2007-12-17 Thread russ - maxdesign
ADMIN:

THREAD CLOSED

This has long ceased to be a discussion on standards and has become a
political debate. Feel free to move it the the WSG forum or off list if you
wish to continue, but no longer on list.

Please do not reply to or continue this thread. If you have an issue with
the closing of this thread, email me off-list.

Thank you
Russ
WSG Core




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[WSG] Styling Submit buttons with JavaScript by making them anchors

2007-12-17 Thread James Leslie
Hi,
 
I'm trying to use some code so that submit buttons on a form are (using
JavaScript if available) removed and replaced with anchor tags that then
have event handlers added to them to submit a form if clicked. The
reason for this is that I have some tabs I want to style in a similar
way though some are anchors and some are inputs and it means I should be
able to style submit buttons in the same way as anchor tags whilst
managing to keep the text resizable (as opposed to using an image for
the submit button). 
 
I have used this before on an implementation without problems but that
was finding the only submit button by ID rather than through a list of
inputs and my new code seems to have a problem now where only the first
input is changed and it doesn't seem to iterate to the second input).
 
A simplified version of the code is below (DOM checks etc removed)...
can anyone see what is wrong? I'd love to do it this way as it is nice
and unobtrusive and means I can style things whilst keeping them
accessible (hopefully). The same code is also online at
http://jamestesting.metafaq.com/clients/jamestesting/test.html
 
Many Thanks
 
James
 
   
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; lang=en
 head
titleEntry: jamestest2 /title
 
  script type=text/javascript
  function changeInputs(){
 // find all uls
 var uls = document.getElementsByTagName(ul);
 // break if no uls present
   if (uls.length  1) return false;
 // find uls with class = tabNav

 for (var i=0; iuls.length; i++){
   var current_ul = uls[i];
   // break iteration of loop if not tabNav class
   if (current_ul.className != tabNav) continue;
   // find all inputs inside tabNav class ul
   var inputs = current_ul.getElementsByTagName(input);
   // break iteration if no inputs in ul
  if (inputs.length1) continue;

   for(var j=0; jinputs.length; j++){
var current_input = inputs[j];
  var newa = document.createElement('a');
 newa.setAttribute('href','#');
 
newa.appendChild(document.createTextNode(current_input.getAttribute('val
ue')));
  current_input.parentNode.insertBefore(newa,current_input);
  current_input.parentNode.removeChild(current_input);
}
   }
 return true;
  }
  /script
 
 /head
 body onload=changeInputs()
 form action=# name=testform
 ul class=tabNav
  lia href=#Link 1/a/li
  lia href=#Link 2/a/li
 /ul
 
 div class=contentbox
  ul class=tabNav
   liinput type=submit name=test1 value=test1 //li
   liinput type=submit name=test2 value=test2 //li
  /ul
  div class=contentbox
pThis is some content/p
   /div
  /div
  /form
 /body
/html


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-17 Thread Andrew Maben

On Dec 16, 2007, at 9:17 PM, Michael Horowitz wrote:

Ask yourself where have you ever seen government controlled  
economies beat a free market one.


This is not about government CONTROL, but government REGULATION. And  
no they are not the same thing.


But this is (supposed to be) a web standards discussion, not a  
political ideologies discussion...


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Styling Submit buttons with JavaScript by making them anchors

2007-12-17 Thread Martin Heiden
James,

  I guess that you have to count down in your for-loop. You modify the
  DOM while iterating over the nodes, so the model changes while you
  are working at it. If you start with the last element, you don't
  mess up the references.

  for(var j=inputs.length-1; j=0; j--) { ... }

regards

  Martin

 





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Re: [WSG] Styling Submit buttons with JavaScript by making them anchors

2007-12-17 Thread Matthew Pennell
On Dec 17, 2007 2:28 PM, James Leslie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I'm trying to use some code so that submit buttons on a form are (using
 JavaScript if available) removed and replaced with anchor tags that then
 have event handlers added to them to submit a form if clicked. The reason
 for this is that I have some tabs I want to style in a similar way though
 some are anchors and some are inputs and it means I should be able to style
 submit buttons in the same way as anchor tags whilst managing to keep the
 text resizable (as opposed to using an image for the submit button).


This might be a stupid question, but why can't you just style your form
submit buttons to look like links using CSS?

button {
border: 0;
background: none;
text-decoration: underline;
color: #006;
cursor: pointer;
}

Your button looks and acts (almost) exactly like a regular link.

- Matthew


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RE: [WSG] Styling Submit buttons with JavaScript by making them anchors FIXED

2007-12-17 Thread James Leslie
   I guess that you have to count down in your for-loop. You modify the
  DOM while iterating over the nodes, so the model changes while you
  are working at it. If you start with the last element, you don't
  mess up the references.

  for(var j=inputs.length-1; j=0; j--) { ... }

--

Thanks so much Martin, that works perfectly (and makes sense)

James





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Re: [WSG] Styling Submit buttons with JavaScript by making them anchors

2007-12-17 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Quoting Matthew Pennell [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


This might be a stupid question, but why can't you just style your form
submit buttons to look like links using CSS?

button {
border: 0;
background: none;
text-decoration: underline;
color: #006;
cursor: pointer;
}


I was going to suggest that as well, but then I seemed to remember  
that old(er) versions of Safari don't allow for such radical form  
widget styling. Also, underline (if needed) doesn't seem to work  
consistently (at least in Firefox).


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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RE: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-17 Thread michael.brockington
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:18 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part


Ask yourself where have you ever seen government controlled 
economies beat a free market one.

Michael Horowitz



China? 

To over-simplify things dramatically, all Communist countries have come
into being as a result of gross mis-management by the previous
administrations. In the vast majority of cases, the communist regime has
turned out to be as corrupt as before, and have given no chance for the
economy to flourish. Whether or not that is an inevitable consequence is
way off-topic, but is certainly not a valid defence for democratic
governments to do nothing.

Mike


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[WSG] BBC in Beta

2007-12-17 Thread Paul McCann

Heads up, the BBC has a new site in Beta.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/beta

Thoughts/praise/comments :)


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[WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3

2007-12-17 Thread Simon Cockayne
Hi there,

What file comparison tool would you recommend for Dreamweaver CS3?

http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/Dreamweaver/9.0/help.html?content=WSc78c5058ca073340dcda9110b1f693f21-7edc.htmlstates:

Before you start, you must install a third-party file comparison tool on
your system. For more information on file comparison tools, use a web search
engine such as Google Search to search for file comparison or diff
tools. Dreamweaver works with most third-party tools.

Cheers,

Simon


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Re: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3

2007-12-17 Thread Paul McCann
I use beyond compare, but im not sure it works within dreamweaver. When 
I used dreamweaver I used to have Beyond compare open in another window 
and when I made changes in one and saved them the other programme 
noticed this and prompted me if I wanted to load the changes or not.


Its a nice little programme which is quite feature rich.

Paul

Simon Cockayne wrote:

Hi there,

What file comparison tool would you recommend for Dreamweaver CS3?

http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/Dreamweaver/9.0/help.html?content=WSc78c5058ca073340dcda9110b1f693f21-7edc.html 
http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/Dreamweaver/9.0/help.html?content=WSc78c5058ca073340dcda9110b1f693f21-7edc.html 
states:


Before you start, you must install a third-party file comparison tool 
on your system. For more information on file comparison tools, use a 
web search engine such as Google Search to search for file 
comparison or diff tools. Dreamweaver works with most third-party 
tools.


Cheers,

Simon

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RE: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3

2007-12-17 Thread Patrick Lauke
Assuming you mean on Windows, I've used WinDiff in the past and was reasonably 
happy with it (though purely to get an at a glance comparison, not to 
actually do any further processing of compared files - it doesn't seem to like 
UTF-8, for a start...)
 
P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise  Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon 
Cockayne
Sent: 17 December 2007 15:38
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3


Hi there,

What file comparison tool would you recommend for Dreamweaver CS3?


http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/Dreamweaver/9.0/help.html?content=WSc78c5058ca073340dcda9110b1f693f21-7edc.html
 states:

Before you start, you must install a third-party file comparison tool 
on your system. For more information on file comparison tools, use a web search 
engine such as Google Search to search for file comparison or diff tools. 
Dreamweaver works with most third-party tools.

Cheers,

Simon

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Re: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3

2007-12-17 Thread Frederick Matzen
I've used this one with great success:
Beyond Compare - http://www.scootersoftware.com/


On Dec 17, 2007 8:38 AM, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi there,

 What file comparison tool would you recommend for Dreamweaver CS3?

 http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/Dreamweaver/9.0/help.html?content=WSc78c5058ca073340dcda9110b1f693f21-7edc.html
 states:

 Before you start, you must install a third-party file comparison tool on
 your system. For more information on file comparison tools, use a web search
 engine such as Google Search to search for file comparison or diff
 tools. Dreamweaver works with most third-party tools.

 Cheers,

 Simon

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-- 
Frederick


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RE: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3

2007-12-17 Thread michael.brockington
Have you looked at UltraCompare, a close cousin of the excellent
UltraEdit ?
 
Mike


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Re: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3

2007-12-17 Thread yacosta
I've used ViseVersa Pro (http://www.tgrmn.com/) with out a problem.


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Re: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3

2007-12-17 Thread Frederick Matzen
That's true. It does not work within Dreamweaver. I'm not sure if I've ever
seen anything that does for sure.

On Dec 17, 2007 9:00 AM, Paul McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I use beyond compare, but im not sure it works within dreamweaver. When I
 used dreamweaver I used to have Beyond compare open in another window and
 when I made changes in one and saved them the other programme noticed this
 and prompted me if I wanted to load the changes or not.

 Its a nice little programme which is quite feature rich.

 Paul

 Simon Cockayne wrote:

 Hi there,

 What file comparison tool would you recommend for Dreamweaver CS3?

 http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/Dreamweaver/9.0/help.html?content=WSc78c5058ca073340dcda9110b1f693f21-7edc.html
 states:

 Before you start, you must install a third-party file comparison tool on
 your system. For more information on file comparison tools, use a web search
 engine such as Google Search to search for file comparison or diff
 tools. Dreamweaver works with most third-party tools.

 Cheers,

 Simon

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-- 
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Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta

2007-12-17 Thread Felix Miata
On 2007/12/17 15:30 (GMT) Paul McCann apparently typed:

 Heads up, the BBC has a new site in Beta.

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/beta

 Thoughts/praise/comments :)

I guess they discovered 800x600 is an anachronism, so made it wider. Still
objects are sized in px, so with fonts forced big enough to read at high
resolution, line lengths are too short and/or overlap and/or extend beyond
containers. CSS hard to evaluate, with no line feeds in the whole file. It
has display options, but that needs work. And, it's another Clagnut type,
suffering the usual effects when viewed with user stylesheet or minimum font
size employed in Gecko. http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/Clagnut/eonsSS

Overall, better, but, worse than good.
-- 
   Our Constitution was made only for a moral
and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to
the government of any other. John Adams

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/


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Re: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3

2007-12-17 Thread Greg Morphis
I second or third beyond compare.. we use it, great little tool,
integrates into the right click menu.. pretty neat

On Dec 17, 2007 10:04 AM, Frederick Matzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I've used this one with great success:
 Beyond Compare - http://www.scootersoftware.com/




 On Dec 17, 2007 8:38 AM, Simon Cockayne  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi there,
 
  What file comparison tool would you recommend for Dreamweaver CS3?
 
 
 http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/Dreamweaver/9.0/help.html?content=WSc78c5058ca073340dcda9110b1f693f21-7edc.html
 states:
 
  Before you start, you must install a third-party file comparison tool on
 your system. For more information on file comparison tools, use a web search
 engine such as Google Search to search for file comparison or diff
 tools. Dreamweaver works with most third-party tools.
 
  Cheers,
 
  Simon
 
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 --
 Frederick


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Re: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3

2007-12-17 Thread David Hucklesby
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:38:07 +, Simon Cockayne wrote:
 Hi there,

 What file comparison tool would you recommend for Dreamweaver CS3?

Odd. I'm surprised DW does *not* have a file compare capability. I have
used text editors for decades, but have not used DW much. All text
editors I ever used had file comparison built in.(?)

Currently I am using TextPad (ww.textpad.com) as my Windows based
editor. Even better options are available on other platforms.

TextPad can compare files. It also has good support for UTF-8, its only
weakness due to the need to display the characters using the Windows
encoding. More a limitation of Windows than the editor, I believe.

Perhaps that will fill the bill? They let you try it out for almost as
long as you want.

Cordially,
David
--



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RE: [WSG] Styling Submit buttons with JavaScript by making them anchors

2007-12-17 Thread James Leslie
This might be a stupid question, but why can't you just style your form
submit buttons to look like links using CSS?

-
 
Primarily because some browsers don't support styling of inputs very
well, but also because I need to add a span in for styling the
links/inputs as tabs. If I do this in a browser that doesn't support
styling of inputs (Safari for example) then I end up with the span still
displaying the left edge of the tab and then a normal submit button.
 
I also don't want to use the Button tag due to its incorrect behaviour
in IE (http://www.peterbe.com/plog/button-tag-in-IE)
 
Whilst this method is relatively long winded, it delivers the result I
want across our supported browsers effectively and degrades to an
acceptable form in the absence of JavaScript (inputs displayed instead
of tabs)
 
Hope that makes some sense of my madness


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Re: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3

2007-12-17 Thread micky
Sorry if this has been mentioned already... But BBedit is really good for
file comparison (unfortunately, Mac Only).

http://www.barebones.com/



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Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta

2007-12-17 Thread Mike Brown

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2007/12/17 15:30 (GMT) Paul McCann apparently typed:


Heads up, the BBC has a new site in Beta.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/beta



Thoughts/praise/comments :)




snip usual font stuff /snip


Overall, better, but, worse than good.


Oh come on, let's not be so blinkered that we can't appreciate really 
good work in most areas!


I think it's a great homepage.

- The information architecture looks good. Directory options at the 
bottom are a nice feature.

- The Customise homepage feature looks easy and understandable
- I love how they've borrowed the NetVibes things of allowing people to 
move content blocks around the page
- I'm not a huge fan of the colours, but it's not overwhelming and easy 
to orientate yourself on the page

- It's an interesting pared-down no-frills visual look
- The markup looks reasonably good
- Seems to work with javascript disabled


Well done I say. And streets ahead of comparable websites in NZ (and I'd 
wager elsewhere in the world):


http://tvnz.co.nz/
http://www.tv3.co.nz/
http://www.sky.co.nz/

Although not Radio NZ which is great:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/


Mike



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Re: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3

2007-12-17 Thread Avi Miller
Hi,

On Dec 18, 2007 3:44 AM, Frederick Matzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 That's true. It does not work within Dreamweaver. I'm not sure if I've ever
 seen anything that does for sure.

I'm using Beyond Compare quite happily with Dreamweaver CS3. Works
fine for me (selecting two local documents and hitting compare fires
up BC in comparison mode).

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Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta

2007-12-17 Thread John Faulds
Oh come on, let's not be so blinkered that we can't appreciate really  
good work in most areas!


Felix isn't the only one who has a number of issues with the new design  
and for entirely different reasons -  
http://www.markboulton.co.uk/journal/comments/bbc_homepage_redesign/


I'd have to agree with Mark that the changing of the pages' colour scheme  
when you click on the coloured rectangles under the main picture is just  
weird. What's it meant to signify?


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Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta

2007-12-17 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Mike Brown wrote:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/beta



Thoughts/praise/comments :)



Overall, better, but, worse than good.



Oh come on, let's not be so blinkered that we can't appreciate really
 good work in most areas!


Since the example comes out like this...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/bbc-beta.png
...in IE7, Firefox and Opera - and a bit worse in IE6, when subjected to
regular, built-in, user-options, it has to be classified as less than
good at this stage.

The example is clearly in need of more testing and work if it is to pass
BBC's own My web My Way advice...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/index.shtml
...somewhat intact, and the weakness doesn't go away by snipping
comments about it.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta

2007-12-17 Thread Karl Lurman
Positives:

- Theres some clever use of Javascript in there that enables some
interesting user interface elements.

- In case you missed it, you can drag and drop parts of the page,
similar to Yahoo and Googles efforts - although they could have gone
some way to making it a bit more obvious.

- Another feature I really like is the ability to increase/decrease
the number of news stories with the +/- buttons next to the country
name. SImilar with the Sports widget.

- Customizable interfaces may seem a little gimmicky, but for pages
that you visit on a daily basis, they allow people to reduce the
'noise' and increase exposure to content that interests them.

- Code is semantic ,gone are the tables for layout, and there are tons
of hidden headings and other goodies for screen readers.

- Like the use of bold headings and overall larger font sizes compared
to previous versions.

Negatives:

- Messy CSS and Javascript first in source order.

- Bit follow the leader (see John Faulds post for link in this
thread), but frankly why shouldn't the BBC move with the times.

- Agree with Mark Boulton on the Weather icons, the Sunny one is
just shocking!

- The colour change thing is okay, but I think the colours are a
little too light in spots (especially with white text on top). Perhaps
its just my LCD...

Karl


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