Re: [WSG] Styling forms
I don't use "display:block", most of the time I float everything and use the label to clear. Depending on the width of the labels I may use "text-align:right;" to move the text in the label toward the text box. I also set the widths in EMs, to avoid the text to wrap if it grows. With the fieldset width set in pixels, when these elements "grow", they simply pile up without breaking anything. If I kill the BRs it is just to make sure they don't create any vertical space. Thanks Thierry. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Styling forms
> On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com
>
>
> > As a side note, I style these BRs with "display:none".
>
> I'm curious, what effect does that have on the styled page?Do you do
> something like...
>
> label {
> display : block;
> }
>
> br {
> display : none;
> }
Hi Mike,
I don't use "display:block", most of the time I float everything and use the
label to clear.
Depending on the width of the labels I may use "text-align:right;" to move the
text in the label toward the text box.
I also set the widths in EMs, to avoid the text to wrap if it grows. With the
fieldset width set in pixels, when these elements "grow", they simply pile up
without breaking anything.
If I kill the BRs it is just to make sure they don't create any vertical space.
--
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Joe Ortenzi wrote: Perhaps Chris But standards people are interested in following standards, not what others may do. We are meant to be leaders, not followers. I also know some people who still want tabled layouts running in Mambo. That doesn't mean their options are either standards compliant nor sensible. what i really meant was, I can't see why people would use lists for forms and I don't know why they have started doing so. I was just offering one possible reason why they have. There's nothing stopping us from: id ="form element_1" id ="form element_2" id ="form element_3" if we need to order elements. Or have I missed something? yes, you can do it that way. I myself tried to implement a drag and drop on table rows which essentially worked quite well but messed up inexplicably at times in certain browsers and therefore wasn't an acceptable solution. And it took some time to code, so what I'm saying is, it's easier in a case like that to implement as a list if possible and use a pre-written javascript library that easily adds drag and drop to lists in a few lines of code. Therefore, you start using markup based on pre-written libraries and not on your natural choice. Hence, maybe thats where this using lists in forms has come from? -- Chris Knowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Small element (was:Styling forms)
Hello Thomas, One of your examples: Why does this semantic markup stuff have to be so unclear at times, he thought. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use: Why does this semantic markup stuff have to be so unclear at times, he thought. ...since it's quoting a person's though? It's not really a quote, though. And the context belongs to the thinker. Thus I feel the i element is more appropriate in this case. With the it'll semantically identified and a thought or dream, whereas with it'd be a quote and, I think, slightly off mark. And then there's IE and the requiring some sort of workaround. As for: The nematicidal marigold, Tagetes minutum, can grow to 8-10 feet. wouldn't that be better as: The nematicidal marigold, Tagetes minutum, can grow to 8-10 feet. As this then defines what Tagetes minutum is? I think using the defining instance element would be good in this case, especially being that the new term is defined to a certain extent immediately following the term, and it would provide the appropriate default styling (foreign language in italics). It would perhaps be an even better choice than that which I chose. I do think adding in the language attribute would complete the picture: Tagetes minutum Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Small element (was:Styling forms)
I had a look at your article. Got some questions: One of your examples: Why does this semantic markup stuff have to be so unclear at times, he thought. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use: Why does this semantic markup stuff have to be so unclear at times, he thought. ...since it's quoting a person's though? As for: The nematicidal marigold, Tagetes minutum, can grow to 8-10 feet. wouldn't that be better as: The nematicidal marigold, Tagetes minutum, can grow to 8-10 feet. As this then defines what Tagetes minutum is? Gotto give it to you. It's been a while since my ideas of semantial markup has been challenged such as your articles does. Refreshing. My mind bubbles. I'll have to investigate your other articles. And I think it's time for me to have a new look at the w3c specs for these 'old' elements again. - Original Message - From: "Mike at Green-Beast.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Small element (was:Styling forms) Hi Thomas, In HTML4 it's a font style element on the line with and etc I guess I've always considered it a font-sizing element more than a styling thing, though the final result is a visual style. I've always felt it has a meaning of being less important than the surrounding text. An afterthought, a byline, some fineprint, or supporting sub-text. can we say that has a semantic meaning now? I always felt it did in an odd sort of way. I judge its use again with styles off. If I really want the text to be smaller to effectively separate its meaning from the surrounding text, then I use the small element. If it shouldn't be, or if I'm not sure or can't decide, or I don't care one way or the other, then I don't use it. If I still want it to appear smaller for some reason I will likely use a span element instead to style the text in question without dimishing its value as it relate to the surrounding content. However, when I usually want text to be smaller, then it is usually because I feel it *is* less important falling into one of the categories I mentioned, so I usually end up using the small tag. I may use it more than some people for this reason. Same thing applies to the b element, but differently. The b element is meant to be a highlight. I end up never using it because I always end up asking myself why I want to highlight something. My answer always guides me. If it's purely stylistic then I use a span, but I usually want to hightlight a word because it is meant to be spoken with emphasis (inflection) so I'll end up using em. Or it may be more important than the surrouding (a common reason to highlight a word or phrase), then I use the "important" element: strong. b is one of those I don't really have a use for. I use the i element more regularly becuase the W3C is more clear about it, and its uses are more distinct and meaningful My thoughts on those two elements are spelled out in more detail here: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=222 Cheers. Mike I think this might be one of those double-edged swords. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Hi Thierry,
As a side note, I style these BRs with "display:none".
I'm curious, what effect does that have on the styled page?Do you do
something like...
label {
display : block;
}
br {
display : none;
}
Thanks.
Mike
- Original Message -
From: "Thierry Koblentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Styling forms
On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com
I don't think the break use has any bearing on the accessibility of the
form's elements so that doesn't seem to have bearing on my decision. No
negatives that I'm aware of.
Semantically speaking, I think the introduction of a break is akin to
adding
a slight pause. I don't think that has any bearing on accessibility to
that
end either.
I use the line break because without it and without styles support, labels
and input fields appear next to each other.
I think this may be confusing to some people; they could visually
associate a label with the wrong input field.
As a side note, I style these BRs with "display:none".
--
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
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RE: [WSG] Styling forms
-- origineel bericht -- Onderwerp: RE: [WSG] Styling forms Van:"Thierry Koblentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Datum: 08-02-2008 19:42 > On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com > I don't think the break use has any bearing on the accessibility of the > form's elements so that doesn't seem to have bearing on my decision. No > negatives that I'm aware of. > > Semantically speaking, I think the introduction of a break is akin to > adding > a slight pause. I don't think that has any bearing on accessibility to > that > end either. I use the line break because without it and without styles support, labels and input fields appear next to each other. I think this may be confusing to some people; they could visually associate a label with the wrong input field. As a side note, I style these BRs with "display:none". -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Small element (was:Styling forms)
Hi Thomas, In HTML4 it's a font style element on the line with and etc I guess I've always considered it a font-sizing element more than a styling thing, though the final result is a visual style. I've always felt it has a meaning of being less important than the surrounding text. An afterthought, a byline, some fineprint, or supporting sub-text. can we say that has a semantic meaning now? I always felt it did in an odd sort of way. I judge its use again with styles off. If I really want the text to be smaller to effectively separate its meaning from the surrounding text, then I use the small element. If it shouldn't be, or if I'm not sure or can't decide, or I don't care one way or the other, then I don't use it. If I still want it to appear smaller for some reason I will likely use a span element instead to style the text in question without dimishing its value as it relate to the surrounding content. However, when I usually want text to be smaller, then it is usually because I feel it *is* less important falling into one of the categories I mentioned, so I usually end up using the small tag. I may use it more than some people for this reason. Same thing applies to the b element, but differently. The b element is meant to be a highlight. I end up never using it because I always end up asking myself why I want to highlight something. My answer always guides me. If it's purely stylistic then I use a span, but I usually want to hightlight a word because it is meant to be spoken with emphasis (inflection) so I'll end up using em. Or it may be more important than the surrouding (a common reason to highlight a word or phrase), then I use the "important" element: strong. b is one of those I don't really have a use for. I use the i element more regularly becuase the W3C is more clear about it, and its uses are more distinct and meaningful My thoughts on those two elements are spelled out in more detail here: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=222 Cheers. Mike I think this might be one of those double-edged swords. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Styling forms
> On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com > I don't think the break use has any bearing on the accessibility of the > form's elements so that doesn't seem to have bearing on my decision. No > negatives that I'm aware of. > > Semantically speaking, I think the introduction of a break is akin to > adding > a slight pause. I don't think that has any bearing on accessibility to > that > end either. I use the line break because without it and without styles support, labels and input fields appear next to each other. I think this may be confusing to some people; they could visually associate a label with the wrong input field. As a side note, I style these BRs with "display:none". -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
I'm with you there. I also check my sites without styling. Gives an idea if the document is well structured. I'll be posting a link to the archive of this thread on the forum I regulary use. The common guide to people asking to mark up forms has been to use lists. It'll be interesting too see the discussion spark off there as well. Your article will be nice food for thoughts. Straying away from the topic a little. (I suppose I should've created a new topic?) I noticed you used on your blog. In HTML4 it's a font style element on the line with and etc. However, in HTML5 it now got a meaning. Small print. The question is, even though HTML5 is still a draft, can we say that has a semantic meaning now? Even though HTML, which is a current recommendation, doesn't define it as such? I've often found my self wanting to use for small prints, side comments and such, but until HTML5 came along I thought it was just the way I interpreted the tag, so I didn't make any use of it. - Original Message - From: "Mike at Green-Beast.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Hello Thomas, But I'm not sure I feel comfortable with a between the and . I know developers are mostly split down the middle about this issue that I've seen. To me, and perhaps this is really silly, but I really like my sites to look and be just as usable with styles off as they are with styles on, and I find adding breaks really neatens up the form visually when viewing the site without styles, organizing it a bit. To me that's a positive thing. I don't think the break use has any bearing on the accessibility of the form's elements so that doesn't seem to have bearing on my decision. No negatives that I'm aware of. Semantically speaking, I think the introduction of a break is akin to adding a slight pause. I don't think that has any bearing on accessibility to that end either. I will say this, though, I do respect the choice made by those who choose not to use it. So much so that the third version of my contact form script has a configuration variable called $add_breaks to which entering "yes" will add them in and entering "no" remove them. Each to their own I figured. No harm either way that I know of so I may as well be accommodating :) Cheers. Mike - Original Message - From: "Thomas Thomassen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Very interesting article. I'm reevaluating my options about lists on forms. But I'm not sure I feel comfortable with a between the and . Semantically it looks like it separates them, even though the FOR attributes connects them. If the came after the then both the and the ends up in the same line without any CSS styling. - Original Message - From: "Mike at Green-Beast.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Hi Rachel, I'd be very interested in reading your article when it's ready For better or worse, it's published: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254 Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Hello Thomas, But I'm not sure I feel comfortable with a between the and . I know developers are mostly split down the middle about this issue that I've seen. To me, and perhaps this is really silly, but I really like my sites to look and be just as usable with styles off as they are with styles on, and I find adding breaks really neatens up the form visually when viewing the site without styles, organizing it a bit. To me that's a positive thing. I don't think the break use has any bearing on the accessibility of the form's elements so that doesn't seem to have bearing on my decision. No negatives that I'm aware of. Semantically speaking, I think the introduction of a break is akin to adding a slight pause. I don't think that has any bearing on accessibility to that end either. I will say this, though, I do respect the choice made by those who choose not to use it. So much so that the third version of my contact form script has a configuration variable called $add_breaks to which entering "yes" will add them in and entering "no" remove them. Each to their own I figured. No harm either way that I know of so I may as well be accommodating :) Cheers. Mike - Original Message - From: "Thomas Thomassen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Very interesting article. I'm reevaluating my options about lists on forms. But I'm not sure I feel comfortable with a between the and . Semantically it looks like it separates them, even though the FOR attributes connects them. If the came after the then both the and the ends up in the same line without any CSS styling. - Original Message - From: "Mike at Green-Beast.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Hi Rachel, I'd be very interested in reading your article when it's ready For better or worse, it's published: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254 Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Very interesting article. I'm reevaluating my options about lists on forms. But I'm not sure I feel comfortable with a between the and . Semantically it looks like it separates them, even though the FOR attributes connects them. If the came after the then both the and the ends up in the same line without any CSS styling. - Original Message - From: "Mike at Green-Beast.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Hi Rachel, I'd be very interested in reading your article when it's ready For better or worse, it's published: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254 Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Hi Rachel, I'd be very interested in reading your article when it's ready For better or worse, it's published: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254 Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms (Away)
I'll be back on 12/2/2008. For any urgent query please contact Jimmy Liu or Kishor Mistry. Regards Teru Yanagihashi DID-IT 88287 8902287 (DDI) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Chris Knowles wrote: CK> yes, but my point was that a lot of js libraries base drag and drop CK> re-ordering of elements around list elements and not other elements. And CK> I have noticed a lot of form building services use lists to markup forms CK> because they require drag and drop re-ordering of form elements. So I'm CK> suggesting they are only using list elements because they can add drag CK> and drop easily by using an external library that supports it, not CK> because they think lists are necessarily a good markup choice. So this is the problem of those JS libraries. Do we really need to break semantics because of this problem? I prefer fixing JS instead. Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Perhaps Chris But standards people are interested in following standards, not what others may do. We are meant to be leaders, not followers. I also know some people who still want tabled layouts running in Mambo. That doesn't mean their options are either standards compliant nor sensible. There's nothing stopping us from: id ="form element_1" id ="form element_2" id ="form element_3" if we need to order elements. Or have I missed something? Joe On Feb 8 2008, at 07:30, Chris Knowles wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: I would have thought so. Isn't that what the id attribute is used for? Something for JavaScript to reference? Chris Knowles wrote: CK> from what I can see the reason lists have come into use in forms has a CK> lot to do with javascript libraries that have re-ordering of elements by CK> drag and drop that tend to work mainly on lists. Therefore lists are CK> useful to wrap form elements if you are creating form building software CK> so the form elements can be easily reordered by non-technical users. I suppose that form elements can be easily reordered even if form elements are not LI-wrapped. Can't they? yes, but my point was that a lot of js libraries base drag and drop re-ordering of elements around list elements and not other elements. And I have noticed a lot of form building services use lists to markup forms because they require drag and drop re- ordering of form elements. So I'm suggesting they are only using list elements because they can add drag and drop easily by using an external library that supports it, not because they think lists are necessarily a good markup choice. -- Chris Knowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
I just ordered a new iMac I asked them to include Win XP OEM for £77 and Parallels Desktop for £33. Of course this OEM price is only for when you buy the computer... An iMac WITH a fully functioning, 100% legal Windows XP for ONLY an additional £110 (AND you can run multiple instances of IE - I have one with 5.5, one with 6, one with 7, another with office 97, all with antispam/spybot software.) Seems like no contest to me... Joe On Feb 8 2008, at 06:20, James Ellis wrote: and remember that Wine is an emulation layer, it may not give the same results as virtualising Windows (which is a standard Windows install). It depends on how good the emulation is. For instance, before using virtualisation to test IE in XP, I was using Wine and ies4linux and not getting very good Javascript results. Cheers James On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 12:07:05 am kevin mcmonagle wrote: note to anyone who wants to run ies4mac. install wine verstion .51 the current version doesnt work. -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
