Re: [WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?

[Michael MD]

Read the story on that page carefully. What has happened is that flash
10 has increased restrictions over what features within the flash
plugin can be invoked via javascript. This only applies to one
specific feature (file uploads), and effects virtually no other flash
features. It does not effect javascript's abilities in general, only
the abilities of javascript to use flash in certain ways. This point
will largely become moot once video/audio/3d/canvas becomes widespread
and built into browsers, and flash as a result becomes less relevant-
Particularly on low powered platforms like the iPhone, and Android
which do not have flash- or the wii which only has an older and
underpowered version of flash.


I forgot that the Wii has a browser! (I think I was surprised to see it come 
up in the server logs here a while back)


Flash Lite maybe?
... (quite a lot of mobile phones have some version of "Flash Lite" - which 
is I think compatable with

flash versions up to 7 - so no AS3/flex/etc ... but AS2 is ok)

linux desktop distros often come with non-Adobe open source flash players 
which also don't do some of the newer features introduced recent versions of 
Adobe flash player.


(Firefox 3 on my ubuntu box was like this until I manually downloaded Adobe 
flash player 9 and compiled it from the shell prompt)



For me its basically horses for courses, comparing javascript and 
actionscript is like comparing apples and oranges, I don't see either as a 
replacement for the other. .. not yet anyway... ...





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Re: [WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?

[Michael MD]

I think you misunderstood the article big-time. It's saying that Flash
10 is planned to not support DHTML scripting access, which means you
won't be able to control a flash video via Javascript. That just means
that a lot of interfaces where Flash is *not* currently sufficient


they introduce a very useful feature then they take it away again in the 
next version!!


annoying!




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Re: [WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?

[Johan Douma]

I don't see flash becoming a dominant technology in the future. It's
definitly not going to replace javascript.
It wouldn't actually surprise me if it is going to die off really slowly...
Only to be used in really specific cases.

Flash gets used a lot today because the flash video codec is good and
because it's the easiest way to integrate some video into the browser
without needed any plugins that might not be on everybody's computer. Flash
is on 99.9% of the computers.

Now that might change as well in the next 3 or 4 years as the video and
audio tag are going to be more and more available to easily integrate video
and audio files into a page.
We would still need plugins anyway, but browser could at least integrate
open sources plugins, like ogg... etc...
I only use flash for multiple file uploads, and some small animations in the
page itself.

Ow and damn flash 10 has broken my file uploader, I'll have to work on that.





Cheers,
Johan Douma


2008/10/16 Breton Slivka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Read the story on that page carefully. What has happened is that flash
> 10 has increased restrictions over what features within the flash
> plugin can be invoked via javascript. This only applies to one
> specific feature (file uploads), and effects virtually no other flash
> features. It does not effect javascript's abilities in general, only
> the abilities of javascript to use flash in certain ways. This point
> will largely become moot once video/audio/3d/canvas becomes widespread
> and built into browsers, and flash as a result becomes less relevant-
> Particularly on low powered platforms like the iPhone, and Android
> which do not have flash- or the wii which only has an older and
> underpowered version of flash.
>
> So in my opinion, to the contrary- This news story is reporting on
> decreased ability of the flash plugin to play well with javascript- It
> will not make flash replace javascript- Except as a workaround in the
> specific case of file uploads.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Charles Ling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Hi Guys/Gals,
> >
> > I would like to get some opinion from you all, that would Flash 10 or ++
> > will replace JavaScript in the future?
> > According to this blog :
> >
> http://ajaxian.com/archives/flash-10-and-the-bad-news-for-javascript-interaction
> .
> >
> > I found that alot of media website started to replace Javascript to play
> > their audio/video and of course Flash required to be install as third
> > party plugin and had to be updated (which is annoying). Did you guys/gals
> > use alot of flash in your past projects that you were working with?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Charles.
> >
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Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[ox4dboy]

Thank you everyone for your replies. So it seems the trusty old traditional 
 
Contact Information 
Name 
 
 
is the way to go to keep all browsers and screen readers happy. I think I can 
likely lose the  and replace that with a display: block; on the label or 
input. This is the first of a series of questions I will have. I have the 
opportunity to rewrite some extremely complex forms for a very large CMS and I 
want to make them the best they can be. 

Thanks! 

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike at Green-Beast.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 11:07:33 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers +  in place of legend 

Hi Ben, 

> I've always used label arount input fields [...] 
> I don't think I've ever seen any recommendation against it. 

Here's one for you: 
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254 

I haven't been paying attention to this, and someone's probably already said 
it (if so, sorry), but it's also worth noting that only form elements will 
be read in a screen reader's forms mode. Being as such, it's better to style 
the legend to look like an h6 rather than substituting it for one. 

Respectfully, 
Mike Cherim 




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Re: [WSG] Chrome and Safari

[David Hucklesby]

On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:49:59 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Seeing as though Google's new Chrome browser uses the same rendering engine 
> as Apple's
> Safari, would it be acceptable to test browser layout issues in Chrome and 
> assume the
> same CSS solutions apply in Safari?
>
> Does anyone know of any distinct differences in CSS rendering between the 2 
> browsers?

The two are mostly in sync, but I wouldn't depend on it.

I would test in both, if I were you.

Cordially,
David
--



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RE: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[Rachel Radford]

I understand where you’re coming from because for some designs the legend isn’t 
easy to style consistently cross-browser, and so sometimes I have used a 
heading instead.  However if possible, using the legend is much better.

 

I also used to wrap form inputs in labels for the same reason as you say – 
styling the form becomes easy – however Mike’s article is very insightful and 
since then I’ve changed what I did and wrap as he suggests.  

 

So I just realised I’m basically echoing Mike’s comments, as that’s what I have 
also discerned as my best practice after quite a bit of form css experience and 
research.

 

J

Rach

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 16 October 2008 12:35
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] labels as input wrappers +  in place of legend

 

I am looking  for feedback on two questions, based on the simple form snippet 
below.


   Personal Details
   Name:

   ID Number:
   


Question 1:
Is it acceptable, or advisable, to use a header tag  in place of the 
 in order to get cross-browsers consistency when dealing with complex 
form styling?  How much impact might this have on accessibility, if any?

Question 2:
I don't see many folks using the  as a wrapper to contain the input.  
Any reason not to do this?  It allows for the  to be removed via display: 
block; on the  tag as well as allowing users (of most browsers) to click 
on a much larger label to select the accompanying input.

 
   Personal Details
   Name:
   
   
   ID Number:
   
   



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Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[Mike at Green-Beast.com]

Hi Ben,


I've always used label arount input fields [...]
I don't think I've ever seen any recommendation against it.


Here's one for you:
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254

I haven't been paying attention to this, and someone's probably already said 
it (if so, sorry), but it's also worth noting that only form elements will 
be read in a screen reader's forms mode. Being as such, it's better to style 
the legend to look like an h6 rather than substituting it for one.


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim




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Re: [WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?

[Breton Slivka]

Read the story on that page carefully. What has happened is that flash
10 has increased restrictions over what features within the flash
plugin can be invoked via javascript. This only applies to one
specific feature (file uploads), and effects virtually no other flash
features. It does not effect javascript's abilities in general, only
the abilities of javascript to use flash in certain ways. This point
will largely become moot once video/audio/3d/canvas becomes widespread
and built into browsers, and flash as a result becomes less relevant-
Particularly on low powered platforms like the iPhone, and Android
which do not have flash- or the wii which only has an older and
underpowered version of flash.

So in my opinion, to the contrary- This news story is reporting on
decreased ability of the flash plugin to play well with javascript- It
will not make flash replace javascript- Except as a workaround in the
specific case of file uploads.


On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Charles Ling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Guys/Gals,
>
> I would like to get some opinion from you all, that would Flash 10 or ++
> will replace JavaScript in the future?
> According to this blog :
> http://ajaxian.com/archives/flash-10-and-the-bad-news-for-javascript-interaction.
>
> I found that alot of media website started to replace Javascript to play
> their audio/video and of course Flash required to be install as third
> party plugin and had to be updated (which is annoying). Did you guys/gals
> use alot of flash in your past projects that you were working with?
>
> Cheers,
> Charles.
>
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Re: [WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?

[Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis]

Charles Ling wrote:
I would like to get some opinion from you all, that would Flash 10 or ++ 
will replace JavaScript in the future?
According to this blog : 
http://ajaxian.com/archives/flash-10-and-the-bad-news-for-javascript-interaction.


I'm not entirely sure Christian's right that Flash 10 Security breaks 
all JS-triggering of Flash functionality rather than just preventing it 
triggering the File dialog. (Given how important this is for 
accessibility, I rather hope not!)


I found that alot of media website started to replace Javascript to play 
their audio/video and of course Flash required to be install as third

party plugin and had to be updated (which is annoying).


Alternative possibility: over the next decade (the lifetime of a typical 
IE version), this use-case for Flash will disappear, except as fallback 
for native HTML video and audio elements:


http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#video

http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#audio

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[David Dorward]

Johan Douma wrote:
> I've always used label arount input fields text:  type="text" /> without the for="" attribute.
> I've never had problems with it, and I don't think I've ever seen any
> recommendation against it.
Support is weaker then for the for attribute, so I would avoid it.

It is just worth pointing out that it isn't wrong to put the input
inside the label.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/



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Re: [WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?

[Christian Montoya]

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Charles Ling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Guys/Gals,
>
> I would like to get some opinion from you all, that would Flash 10 or ++
> will replace JavaScript in the future?
> According to this blog :
> http://ajaxian.com/archives/flash-10-and-the-bad-news-for-javascript-interaction.
>
> I found that alot of media website started to replace Javascript to play
> their audio/video and of course Flash required to be install as third
> party plugin and had to be updated (which is annoying). Did you guys/gals
> use alot of flash in your past projects that you were working with?

I think you misunderstood the article big-time. It's saying that Flash
10 is planned to not support DHTML scripting access, which means you
won't be able to control a flash video via Javascript. That just means
that a lot of interfaces where Flash is *not* currently sufficient
(such as Yahoo Video) or where Flash is used as a workaround to assist
Javascript/HTML (such as batch uploading in Wordpress) will no longer
be possible, at which point people will need to find a way to make
these things work with Javascript alone, or convince Adobe to change
their minds about this.

As for whether or not Javascript is ever going away, try using web
apps like Gmail or Facebook without Javascript and see what you lose.
The reason why Javascript has gained so much traction in the past few
years is because you can do a heck of a lot with it before you have to
load up a third-party plugin.


-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis]

Johan Douma wrote:
I've always used label arount input fields text: type="text" /> without the for="" attribute.
I've never had problems with it, and I don't think I've ever seen any 
recommendation against it.


There's a discussion about some problems with that pattern at:

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H44.html

and

http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254

I'd suggest just using:

Label text: id="field-id" name="field-key" type="text">


(substituting whatever you feel most appropriate for DIV)

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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[WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?

[Charles Ling]

Hi Guys/Gals,

I would like to get some opinion from you all, that would Flash 10 or ++
will replace JavaScript in the future?
According to this blog :
http://ajaxian.com/archives/flash-10-and-the-bad-news-for-javascript-interaction
.

I found that alot of media website started to replace Javascript to play
their audio/video and of course Flash required to be install as third
party plugin and had to be updated (which is annoying). Did you guys/gals
use alot of flash in your past projects that you were working with?

Cheers,
Charles.


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RE: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[Tatham Oddie]

Johan – what you are describing is the correct usage in that scenario.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

  call:+61414275989,   
call:+61280113982,   skype:tathamoddie,   msn:[EMAIL PROTECTED],   
tatham.oddie.com.au

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Johan Douma
Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2008 11:23 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers +  in place of legend

 

I've always used label arount input fields text:  without the for="" attribute. 
I've never had problems with it, and I don't think I've ever seen any 
recommendation against it.




Johan Douma
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



2008/10/16 David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Jason Grant wrote:
> Ok you got both of these quite wrong for following reasons:
>
> In the first instance you shouldn't use  or  at all.
> In the second instance you should not wrap  into  as the
>  should quite clearly be used for denoting a label of an input
> field and not the input field itself.

Not so:

"When [the for attribute is] absent, the label being defined is
associated with the element's contents."

"""


  First Name
  

"""

 -- http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.9.1


--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/




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Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[Jason Grant]

This is the first time for me to see someone proposing use of  structure.I agree that  is not strictly necessary and that a
form is not necessarily a list, but one could argue that you are dealing
with a list of form input elements.
Read more why I do this here:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/prettyaccessibleforms
Using a list also gives better control over the look as I never do:
float:left; clear: left; since that proves to cause cross browser issues
more often than not.
Cheers,
Jason

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Johan Douma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I've always used label arount input fields text:  /> without the for="" attribute.
> I've never had problems with it, and I don't think I've ever seen any
> recommendation against it.
>
>
>
>
> Johan Douma
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> 2008/10/16 David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> Jason Grant wrote:
>>
>> > Ok you got both of these quite wrong for following reasons:
>> >
>> > In the first instance you shouldn't use  or  at all.
>> > In the second instance you should not wrap  into  as the
>> >  should quite clearly be used for denoting a label of an input
>> > field and not the input field itself.
>> Not so:
>>
>> "When [the for attribute is] absent, the label being defined is
>> associated with the element's contents."
>>
>> """
>> 
>>
>>   First Name
>>   
>> 
>> """
>>
>>  -- http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.9.1
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Dorward
>> http://dorward.me.uk/
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
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>



-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469

www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


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Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[Johan Douma]

I've always used label arount input fields text:  without the for="" attribute.
I've never had problems with it, and I don't think I've ever seen any
recommendation against it.




Johan Douma
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


2008/10/16 David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Jason Grant wrote:
> > Ok you got both of these quite wrong for following reasons:
> >
> > In the first instance you shouldn't use  or  at all.
> > In the second instance you should not wrap  into  as the
> >  should quite clearly be used for denoting a label of an input
> > field and not the input field itself.
> Not so:
>
> "When [the for attribute is] absent, the label being defined is
> associated with the element's contents."
>
> """
> 
>
>   First Name
>   
> 
> """
>
>  -- http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.9.1
>
>
> --
> David Dorward
> http://dorward.me.uk/
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[Svip]

2008/10/16 David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Jason Grant wrote:
> > Ok you got both of these quite wrong for following reasons:
> >
> > In the first instance you shouldn't use  or  at all.
> > In the second instance you should not wrap  into  as the
> >  should quite clearly be used for denoting a label of an input
> > field and not the input field itself.
> Not so:
>
> "When [the for attribute is] absent, the label being defined is
> associated with the element's contents."


Which it isn't in the original example provided, the *for* attribute is
provided.

In addition, there is no need to use the  elements around the input
elements, as you can use the display: option in CSS to make them appear like
a list, which is probably what you want, and not going through the hassle of
adding the list HTML elements.  Since it is technically not a list.

My suggestion would be something to the content of:


  */
  *
  
  *etc...
*

CSS:

label, input {
  float: left;
  clear: left;
}

Or, alternatively;

label, input {
  display: list-element;
}

Or just mess around with it.  Dude...

Also, no one has yet to answer the original question.  And my suggestion is
no, because  can easily be configured via CSS to look and appear
exactly as .  So there.

/Svip


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Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[David Dorward]

Jason Grant wrote:
> Ok you got both of these quite wrong for following reasons: 
>
> In the first instance you shouldn't use  or  at all. 
> In the second instance you should not wrap  into  as the
>  should quite clearly be used for denoting a label of an input
> field and not the input field itself.
Not so:

"When [the for attribute is] absent, the label being defined is
associated with the element's contents."

"""


   First Name
   

"""

  -- http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.9.1


-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/



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Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[Jason Grant]

Ok you got both of these quite wrong for following reasons:
In the first instance you shouldn't use  or  at all.
In the second instance you should not wrap  into  as the
 should quite clearly be used for denoting a label of an input field
and not the input field itself.
Using a heading instead of a  is OK, but use  if the design
allows it for even better accessibility.

What you ought to do is something like this.


Personal details


Surname



Email





Each  is a container for  pairs. No need for . Each
element is nicely 'styleable' via CSS. The  gives a user insight into
how many elements exist inside the given  so for non-sighted user
they will know to expect a more complex form if there are 15 items in the
given list. You can give each  a class attribute to give it a more
specific hook for styling or behaviour purposes.

Hope this helps.

Jason

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:35 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I am looking  for feedback on two questions, based on the simple form
> snippet below.
>
> 
>Personal Details
>Name:
> 
>ID Number:
>
> 
>
> Question 1:
> Is it acceptable, or advisable, to use a header tag  in place of the
>  in order to get cross-browsers consistency when dealing with
> complex form styling?  How much impact might this have on accessibility, if
> any?
>
> Question 2:
> I don't see many folks using the  as a wrapper to contain the
> input.  Any reason not to do this?  It allows for the  to be removed
> via display: block; on the  tag as well as allowing users (of most
> browsers) to click on a much larger label to select the accompanying input.
>
>  
>Personal Details
>Name:
>
>
>ID Number:
>
>
> 
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469

www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


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[WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[ox4dboy]

I am looking for feedback on two questions, based on the simple form snippet 
below. 

 
Personal Details 
Name: 
  
ID Number: 
 
 

Question 1: 
Is it acceptable, or advisable, to use a header tag  in place of the 
 in order to get cross-browsers consistency when dealing with complex 
form styling? How much impact might this have on accessibility, if any? 

Question 2: 
I don't see many folks using the  as a wrapper to contain the input. Any 
reason not to do this? It allows for the  to be removed via display: 
block; on the  tag as well as allowing users (of most browsers) to click 
on a much larger label to select the accompanying input. 

 
Personal Details 
Name: 
 
 
ID Number: 
 
 
 


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Re: [WSG] Chrome and Safari

[Johan Douma]

Not only JS, there are differences in CSS as well.

Shadows appear, but kinda buggy, not as it should. text-shadow and
box-shadow.
The rounded borders are not antialiased (as in aliased or pixelated) in
Chrome whereas FF3 and Safari handle it correctly.
And font-face doesn't work at all, whereas it does in safari.

I know these properties are not part of css2.1, so it's acceptable, but good
to know. That was a few weeks ago as well. Maybe it's been fixed... I
haven't checked today.

I've heard about problems with png as well, but I haven;t seen any problems
on that side of things.

There are probably other things that are different in Chrome than in Safari.


Cheers,

Johan Douma


2008/10/16 Ben Buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>
>
>
> Seeing as though Google's new Chrome browser uses the same rendering engine
>> as Apple's Safari, would it be acceptable to test browser layout issues in
>> Chrome and assume the same CSS solutions apply in Safari? Does anyone know
>> of any distinct differences in CSS rendering between the 2 browsers?
>>
> I don't know of any issues now, but as a long term solution I would assume
> that the two browsers will get out of synch at some stage in terms of the
> specific version of teh rendering engine. Also as other people have noted
> the whole browser is more than just the rendering engine; so it's prudent to
> test them separately.
>
> cheers,
>
> Ben
>
>
> --
> --- 
> --- The future has arrived; it's just not
> --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
>
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>
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Re: [WSG] Browser loading images issue

[kate]

Working fine first load Kristine in the UK
Winxp:
SP2
1680x1050
IE6
Kate
Forum: http://princess.invisionzone.com/index.php
Borneo: http://simplyborneo.com/borneosnaturaltreasures/


- Original Message - 
From: "Kristine Cummins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 7:55 PM
Subject: [WSG] Browser loading images issue



Hi all,

I'm still having this issue as the client is contacting about images 
simply

not showing up but on refresh, they do. Frustrating as I don't know how to
solve this issue.

The page is http://www.cpwrehab.com/employee_listing.html
Stylesheet is: http://www.cpwrehab.com/styles.css


Thanks,
Kristine


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kristine Cummins
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:28 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Browser loading images issue

I noticed that sometimes some images will not load upon visiting a page
while others on the page will, but when I hit the browser's refresh 
button,
the image will load. This was happening in IE, but no other browser. 
Anyone

have any ideas how to fix this issue?

Thanks,
Kristine



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Re: [WSG] Chrome and Safari

[Ben Buchanan]

Seeing as though Google's new Chrome browser uses the same rendering engine
> as Apple's Safari, would it be acceptable to test browser layout issues in
> Chrome and assume the same CSS solutions apply in Safari? Does anyone know
> of any distinct differences in CSS rendering between the 2 browsers?
>
I don't know of any issues now, but as a long term solution I would assume
that the two browsers will get out of synch at some stage in terms of the
specific version of teh rendering engine. Also as other people have noted
the whole browser is more than just the rendering engine; so it's prudent to
test them separately.

cheers,

Ben


-- 
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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