[WSG] Blog Launch: AGIMO Web Publishing Guide Review [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Grace, Gordon]

(Posted on behalf of the AGIMO Web Publishing Guide Team)
==

As part of the ongoing review of the Australian Government Web
Publishing Guide, the Australian Government Information Management
Office (AGIMO) has recently launched their first externally-facing blog
at:

http://wpgblog.agimo.gov.au

The Web Publishing Guide Blog has a few purposes:

1. The blog will be used to consult with users of the Web Publishing
Guide and understand their needs. This will be useful input as we review
and update the Guide.  

2. The blog will provide a practical example of an operating government
blog, with working approaches for managing moderation, terms of use and
other issues. We hope this will be useful for agencies that are
considering using blogs to support their own work.

3. The blog will "open up" the redevelopment of the Web Publishing
Guide, and allow people to read and comment on the range of website
design and maintenance issues that we will consider as we review and
update the Guide. This might include topics like accessibility, content
management, governance or usability.

The project blog will operate for at least as long as the project to
review and redevelop the Web Publishing Guide. The review team expects
to be posting approximately once a week during development, and, where
necessary, will respond to comments during business hours as soon as
they are able.

Expect more posts to appear on a regular basis over the next couple of
months - to stay informed on updates, subscribe to the blog's RSS feed
at http://wpgblog.agimo.gov.au/feed/ .

We hope to hear from you via our comments section soon.

Regards,

The Web Publishing Guide Team
http://webpublishing.agimo.gov.au





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Finance Web Site:   www.finance.gov.au   

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Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help

[Andrew Harris]

How I love this community!
I haven't solved my problems yet, but based on the comments and ideas
I've gathered in the past few days, the site has improved
substantially. This latest comment from Philippe...

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Philippe Wittenbergh  wrote:
> Because that file is being served as 'text/html' instead of 'text/xml' as it
> should. That is server misconfiguration.

I dismissed at first, thinking our CMS wouldn't allow me to tweak such
fundamental settings, but it led me into the bowels of the support
forums where I dredged up the little slice of code I needed. Now, the
sitemap.xml as well as the kml and gpx feeds are all served correctly
as text/xml - did I say how I love this community? - and I've a
grudging respect for MySource Matrix too!

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ <*>< ~~~


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Re: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1

[Nathanael Boehm]

Hi Kat,

That really depends - without user research it's hard to know what
conclusions about the data are relevant and of interest to people consuming
that data; plus if the purpose is for people to draw their own conclusions
(hence why you're *providing *all that data) then it doesn't make sense to
bias it with pre-formed conclusions.

If you *have* to use tabulated data then that's a challenge, sure, but I
suggest going back over the business case for presenting the data and seeing
if there's some other way the *information* can be presented. Looks at
alternative presentation formats such as filtering - but as I said it
depends because datasets hidden behind a search/filter form can be
frustrating to users who may want to browse the matrix to figure out what
they want if they're unfamiliar with the data model or want to identify
trends and work backwards. Comes down to user goals.

Nathanael Boehm

Freelance web user interaction designer

UX · IxD · UI design · Prototyping · HTML · CSS · JS · Usability ·
Accessibility · Social media

Imagine Innovation · UXnet Canberra · OpenAustralia · BarCampCanberra

www.purecaffeine.com 

Canberra, Australia

0409 288 464


On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Kat  wrote:

> Steve Green wrote:
>
>> I am tempted to say that this is a moot point. In my experience complex
>> data
>> tables are inaccessible to screen reader users because they have great
>> difficulty forming a mental model of them. Marking them up perfectly
>> semantically doesn't help.
>>
>> If you use 'normal' means of navigating, the table cell contents are read
>> sequentially. Each cell is usually understandable but you get no sense of
>> the structure and relationships with the column and row headings.
>>
>> If you use the table navigation commands, the column and/or row headers
>> are
>> read in addition to the cell contents. This provides structural
>> information
>> but the user has to mentally separate the header and cell data before
>> adding
>> them to their mental model. This is difficult enough with simple tables
>> but
>> I don't recall even highly proficient screen reader users successfully
>> navigating complex tables during user testing.
>>
>> What I can't say is whether any other user group derives any benefit from
>> the correct semantic markup of tables. Off the top of my head I can't
>> think
>> of any. I also cannot think of any applications (e.g. search engines, news
>> scrapers etc) that programmatically access websites that would benefit
>> from
>> this either.
>>
>>
> Thanks for that Steve! :)
>
> Then would the answer, perhaps, be to give a small succinct paragraph about
> the tabular data, with the most important points (if they exist), and
> perhaps a link to contact details if the user wanted to know more? And not
> worry about thead, tfoot, tbody, col, colgroup, etc? Would that be an
> acceptable accessibility alternative?
>
> Kat
>
>
>
>
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>


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RE: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1

[Steve Green]

 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Kat
Sent: 02 November 2009 01:35
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1

Steve Green wrote:
> I am tempted to say that this is a moot point. In my experience 
> complex data tables are inaccessible to screen reader users because 
> they have great difficulty forming a mental model of them. Marking 
> them up perfectly semantically doesn't help.
> 
> If you use 'normal' means of navigating, the table cell contents are 
> read sequentially. Each cell is usually understandable but you get no 
> sense of the structure and relationships with the column and row headings.
> 
> If you use the table navigation commands, the column and/or row 
> headers are read in addition to the cell contents. This provides 
> structural information but the user has to mentally separate the 
> header and cell data before adding them to their mental model. This is 
> difficult enough with simple tables but I don't recall even highly 
> proficient screen reader users successfully navigating complex tables
during user testing.
> 
> What I can't say is whether any other user group derives any benefit 
> from the correct semantic markup of tables. Off the top of my head I 
> can't think of any. I also cannot think of any applications (e.g. 
> search engines, news scrapers etc) that programmatically access 
> websites that would benefit from this either.
> 

Thanks for that Steve! :)

Then would the answer, perhaps, be to give a small succinct paragraph about
the tabular data, with the most important points (if they exist), and
perhaps a link to contact details if the user wanted to know more? 
And not worry about thead, tfoot, tbody, col, colgroup, etc? Would that be
an acceptable accessibility alternative?

Kat


It depends on what your objectives are. Many of my clients have a
contractual obligation to meet the letter of the WCAG, in which case using
the correct semantics meets their objectives even though it results in a
poor user experience. The same would be the case if you were concerned about
the tables being programmatic accessible.

If your objective is legal compliance, providing the information by
alternative means is certainly an option, and the provision of contact
details may well be sufficient depending on the prevailing legal
environment. You would need to put in place a procedure to deal with
requests for help, and there would likely be a cost - might it just be
cheaper to fix the tables?

If your objective is a good user experience, don't use complex tables.

Steve



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Re: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1

[Kat]

Steve Green wrote:

I am tempted to say that this is a moot point. In my experience complex data
tables are inaccessible to screen reader users because they have great
difficulty forming a mental model of them. Marking them up perfectly
semantically doesn't help.

If you use 'normal' means of navigating, the table cell contents are read
sequentially. Each cell is usually understandable but you get no sense of
the structure and relationships with the column and row headings.

If you use the table navigation commands, the column and/or row headers are
read in addition to the cell contents. This provides structural information
but the user has to mentally separate the header and cell data before adding
them to their mental model. This is difficult enough with simple tables but
I don't recall even highly proficient screen reader users successfully
navigating complex tables during user testing.

What I can't say is whether any other user group derives any benefit from
the correct semantic markup of tables. Off the top of my head I can't think
of any. I also cannot think of any applications (e.g. search engines, news
scrapers etc) that programmatically access websites that would benefit from
this either.



Thanks for that Steve! :)

Then would the answer, perhaps, be to give a small succinct paragraph 
about the tabular data, with the most important points (if they exist), 
and perhaps a link to contact details if the user wanted to know more? 
And not worry about thead, tfoot, tbody, col, colgroup, etc? Would that 
be an acceptable accessibility alternative?


Kat



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RE: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1

[Steve Green]

I am tempted to say that this is a moot point. In my experience complex data
tables are inaccessible to screen reader users because they have great
difficulty forming a mental model of them. Marking them up perfectly
semantically doesn't help.

If you use 'normal' means of navigating, the table cell contents are read
sequentially. Each cell is usually understandable but you get no sense of
the structure and relationships with the column and row headings.

If you use the table navigation commands, the column and/or row headers are
read in addition to the cell contents. This provides structural information
but the user has to mentally separate the header and cell data before adding
them to their mental model. This is difficult enough with simple tables but
I don't recall even highly proficient screen reader users successfully
navigating complex tables during user testing.

What I can't say is whether any other user group derives any benefit from
the correct semantic markup of tables. Off the top of my head I can't think
of any. I also cannot think of any applications (e.g. search engines, news
scrapers etc) that programmatically access websites that would benefit from
this either.
 
Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Kat
Sent: 02 November 2009 00:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1


Gday all,

We're all agreed that tables should only be used for tabular data, and
should be marked up properly for accessibility.


*WCAG 1.0 and 2.0 links about table accessibility and specific markup*

WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 5.2 says "For data tables that have two or more 
logical levels of row or column headers, use markup to associate data 
cells and header cells. [Priority 1]"
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/#tech-table-structure
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#identifying-table-rows-columns

And in a working draft for WCAG 2.0, HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0*, 
Section 7.5,  Identifying groups of rows: Use thead to group repeated 
table headers, tfoot for repeated table footers, and tbody for other 
groups of rows. (optional)
http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_rowgroup

Section 7.6 Identifying groups of columns: Use the colgroup and col 
elements to group columns. (optional)
http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_colgroup

Noting, that both are optional, under WCAG 2.0 (working draft).


*XHTML Basic 1.1*
Now that there are more and more handheld devices being used to access 
the web, I have been thinking that some websites might benefit from 
moving to a different markup: XHTML Basic 1.1, particularly if the 
majority of their user-base are on handheld devices. This way they can 
serve up something the majority of their audience can use and also allow 
access through a desk- or lap-top device.


*Questions*
XHTML Basic 1.1 does not include thead, tbody and tfoot, along with col 
and colgroup, which is mentioned under WCAG 1.0 and WCAG 2.0 for 
acessible complex data tables.
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/dtd-comparison.html

Can a complex table be accessible without these elements, or do we, as 
developers, accept the loss of accessibility (both on a practical and 
compliance level) on data tables with the advent of the mobile web**?

As much as I might like to support the argument that complex tables 
should never appear on mobiles, I'm not sure it's realistic. There may 
be a time when a complex table in XHTML Basic 1.1 is served up to both 
handheld, and desk- and lap- top devices. In that event, what can the 
developer do?

Kat

* Wow, that's a working draft from 2003, SIX years ago. Can that be true?

** Not my preferred option.


Is this too complex for a Monday morning?



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Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help

[Andrew Harris]

> Because that file is being served as 'text/html' instead of 'text/xml' as it
> should. That is server misconfiguration. I'm not surprised Googlebot doesn't
> pick it up.

yes, quite right, unfortunately, I don't think I can get the CMS to
serve it correctly as xml, however google digested it happily enough -
just failed to spider all URLs - something which I now know is normal.

The only puzzle I still have is with the search results in our Custom
Search Engine (still off topic!) but why would the public search
return a different amount to the custom search? I have to admit, after
5 months of no change, this week it's gone from 1 result to 21 - go
figure!

Thanks again to all who replied.

It's just reinforced to me that if you want an internal search engine
that really works and is controllable, that leaving it up to the magic
donkeys at google is really not an option. Still trying to convince
our fine institution of that ;-)

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ <*>< ~~~


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[WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1

[Kat]

Gday all,

We're all agreed that tables should only be used for tabular data, and 
should be marked up properly for accessibility.



*WCAG 1.0 and 2.0 links about table accessibility and specific markup*

WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 5.2 says "For data tables that have two or more 
logical levels of row or column headers, use markup to associate data 
cells and header cells. [Priority 1]"

http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/#tech-table-structure
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#identifying-table-rows-columns

And in a working draft for WCAG 2.0, HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0*, 
Section 7.5,  Identifying groups of rows: Use thead to group repeated 
table headers, tfoot for repeated table footers, and tbody for other 
groups of rows. (optional)

http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_rowgroup

Section 7.6 Identifying groups of columns: Use the colgroup and col 
elements to group columns. (optional)

http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_colgroup

Noting, that both are optional, under WCAG 2.0 (working draft).


*XHTML Basic 1.1*
Now that there are more and more handheld devices being used to access 
the web, I have been thinking that some websites might benefit from 
moving to a different markup: XHTML Basic 1.1, particularly if the 
majority of their user-base are on handheld devices. This way they can 
serve up something the majority of their audience can use and also allow 
access through a desk- or lap-top device.



*Questions*
XHTML Basic 1.1 does not include thead, tbody and tfoot, along with col 
and colgroup, which is mentioned under WCAG 1.0 and WCAG 2.0 for 
acessible complex data tables.

http://www.w3.org/2007/09/dtd-comparison.html

Can a complex table be accessible without these elements, or do we, as 
developers, accept the loss of accessibility (both on a practical and 
compliance level) on data tables with the advent of the mobile web**?


As much as I might like to support the argument that complex tables 
should never appear on mobiles, I'm not sure it's realistic. There may 
be a time when a complex table in XHTML Basic 1.1 is served up to both 
handheld, and desk- and lap- top devices. In that event, what can the 
developer do?


Kat

* Wow, that's a working draft from 2003, SIX years ago. Can that be true?

** Not my preferred option.


Is this too complex for a Monday morning?



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Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Nov 2, 2009, at 6:58 AM, Adam Smith wrote:

Swami; I'll hazard a guess here and assume you're using Firefox; and  
you've done what I did and gone tohttp://maps.unimelb.edu.au/sitemap.xml 
, seen a mass of test on screen


Because that file is being served as 'text/html' instead of 'text/xml'  
as it should. That is server misconfiguration. I'm not surprised  
Googlebot doesn't pick it up.

Safari shows the same issue.

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://l-c-n.com/







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[WSG] Re: WSG Digest

[Ei Sabai Nyo]

It looks like the Content-Type for the document is incorrect.  Currently, it is 
set to Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1.  It should be text/xml or 
application/xml.  In PHP, you can use header to set content type of the 
document.  http://php.net/manual/en/function.header.php  

Sidenote: I use Live HTTP Headers Add on for Firefox to view header 
information.  https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3829

Cheers,
Ei Sabai



Anansi Web Development

Web Design and Development | Search Engine Optimisation and Marketing | Social 
Media Integration | Web Application Development

http://www.anansi.com.au/



--- On Sun, 11/1/09, wsg@webstandardsgroup.org  
wrote:

From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Subject: WSG Digest
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 10:06 PM

*
WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST
*


From: "Adam Smith" 
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:58:37 +1100
Subject: Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help

Actually, I think you're both right!
 
Swami; I'll hazard a guess here and assume you're using Firefox; and you've
 done what I did and gone to http://maps.unimelb.edu.au/sitemap.xml, seen a
 mass of test on screen and saved the file to be confronted with: 
http://www.sitemaps.org/schemas/sitemap/0.
9"> - at the top of the file. 
 
I almost shudder to say this, but use... internet explorer (I feel 
like I need a wash!) for this; and the file's true structure is seen on scr
een. 
 
If some time presents today, I'll dig around and see if I can find out why 
there's something Firefox can't do better than IE (7 by the way) or if it's
 one of the plugin's I'm running.

>>> On 31/10/2009 at 2:33 PM, Andrew Harris  wrote:

ahh - no.

I did change some stuff on the site, but not the xml file - I suspect
whatever you were looking at it with the first time had to put the
html tags around it just to make sense of it.

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Swami Neelamber  wro
te:
> Sorry Hassan! It would seem it's been changed.
> Andrew's been beavering away, as one does.
>
> His original "XML" file I downloaded from the same URI as you
> did: , right onto my desktop (it's
> still there), and I believe I probably did that a number of hours before 
you
> looked.
> Sorry for the confusion. Keep breathing.
>
> Swami  :)
>
>
>
> www.blueskyzen.com/design
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Hassan Schroeder 
> wrote:
>>
>> Swami Neelamber wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not totally sure about that  you've used top and bottom
>>> of your *sitemap.xml* file?
>>
>> Don't know what you're looking at but there are no such tags in the
>> document at 
>>
>> --
>> Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
>> webtuitive design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtui
tive.com
>> twitter: @hassan
>>                          dream.  code.
>>
>>
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-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ <*>< ~~~


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[WSG] Lisa Kerrigan/StateDevPolicy/DSD is out of the office.

[lisa . kerrigan]

I will be out of the office starting  02/11/2009 and will not return until
04/11/2009.

Content Requests should be lodged with the Content Submission Engine via
the intranet or contact Jason Rhodes

For technical advice contact Ming Ma.

For other requests contact Brendan Halloran or Wendy Pryor.


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[WSG] AUTO: Michelle Phillips-Schork is out of the office. (returning 05/11/2009)

[Michelle . Phillips-Schork]

I am out of the office until 05/11/2009.

I will respond to your message when I return.
If you require immediate assistance with a web publishing task, please
contact either Rachel Booth, Bonnie Mercer, Gary Hansen or Brett
Ironmonger.


Note: This is an automated response to your message  "Re: [WSG] [OT] Google
search/index/webmaster help" sent on 2/11/09 8:58:37.

This is the only notification you will receive while this person is away.

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Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help

[Adam Smith]

Actually, I think you're both right!
 
Swami; I'll hazard a guess here and assume you're using Firefox; and you've 
done what I did and gone to http://maps.unimelb.edu.au/sitemap.xml, seen a mass 
of test on screen and saved the file to be confronted with: 
http://www.sitemaps.org/schemas/sitemap/0.9";> - at the top of the file. 
 
I almost shudder to say this, but use... internet explorer (I feel like 
I need a wash!) for this; and the file's true structure is seen on screen. 
 
If some time presents today, I'll dig around and see if I can find out why 
there's something Firefox can't do better than IE (7 by the way) or if it's one 
of the plugin's I'm running.

>>> On 31/10/2009 at 2:33 PM, Andrew Harris  wrote:

ahh - no.

I did change some stuff on the site, but not the xml file - I suspect
whatever you were looking at it with the first time had to put the
html tags around it just to make sense of it.

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Swami Neelamber  wrote:
> Sorry Hassan! It would seem it's been changed.
> Andrew's been beavering away, as one does.
>
> His original "XML" file I downloaded from the same URI as you
> did: , right onto my desktop (it's
> still there), and I believe I probably did that a number of hours before you
> looked.
> Sorry for the confusion. Keep breathing.
>
> Swami  :)
>
>
>
> www.blueskyzen.com/design
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Hassan Schroeder 
> wrote:
>>
>> Swami Neelamber wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not totally sure about that  you've used top and bottom
>>> of your *sitemap.xml* file?
>>
>> Don't know what you're looking at but there are no such tags in the
>> document at 
>>
>> --
>> Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
>> webtuitive design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com
>> twitter: @hassan
>>  dream.  code.
>>
>>
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-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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