[WSG] AUTO: Michelle Phillips-Schork is out of the office. (returning 05/11/2009)
I am out of the office until 05/11/2009. I will respond to your message when I return. If you require immediate assistance with a web publishing task, please contact either Rachel Booth, Bonnie Mercer, Gary Hansen or Brett Ironmonger. Note: This is an automated response to your message Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help sent on 2/11/09 8:58:37. This is the only notification you will receive while this person is away. _ This email contains confidential information intended only for the person named above and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying or use of this information is prohibited. The Department provides no guarantee that this communication is free of virus or that it has not been intercepted or interfered with. If you have received this email in error or have any other concerns regarding its transmission, please notify postmas...@dhs.vic.gov.au _ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Re: WSG Digest
It looks like the Content-Type for the document is incorrect. Currently, it is set to Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1. It should be text/xml or application/xml. In PHP, you can use header to set content type of the document. http://php.net/manual/en/function.header.php Sidenote: I use Live HTTP Headers Add on for Firefox to view header information. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3829 Cheers, Ei Sabai Anansi Web Development Web Design and Development | Search Engine Optimisation and Marketing | Social Media Integration | Web Application Development http://www.anansi.com.au/ --- On Sun, 11/1/09, wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: WSG Digest To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 10:06 PM * WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST * From: Adam Smith adsm...@networkten.com.au Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:58:37 +1100 Subject: Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help Actually, I think you're both right! Swami; I'll hazard a guess here and assume you're using Firefox; and you've done what I did and gone to http://maps.unimelb.edu.au/sitemap.xml, seen a mass of test on screen and saved the file to be confronted with: htmlhe ad meta http-equiv=content-type content=text/html; charset=ISO-8859- 1/headbodyurlset xmlns=http://www.sitemaps.org/schemas/sitemap/0. 9 - at the top of the file. I almost shudder to say this, but use... internet explorer (I feel like I need a wash!) for this; and the file's true structure is seen on scr een. If some time presents today, I'll dig around and see if I can find out why there's something Firefox can't do better than IE (7 by the way) or if it's one of the plugin's I'm running. On 31/10/2009 at 2:33 PM, Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com wrote: ahh - no. I did change some stuff on the site, but not the xml file - I suspect whatever you were looking at it with the first time had to put the html tags around it just to make sense of it. On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Swami Neelamber neelam...@gmail.com wro te: Sorry Hassan! It would seem it's been changed. Andrew's been beavering away, as one does. His original XML file I downloaded from the same URI as you did: http://maps.unimelb.edu.au/sitemap.xml, right onto my desktop (it's still there), and I believe I probably did that a number of hours before you looked. Sorry for the confusion. Keep breathing. Swami :) www.blueskyzen.com/design On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com wrote: Swami Neelamber wrote: I'm not totally sure about that htmlhead you've used top and bottom of your *sitemap.xml* file? Don't know what you're looking at but there are no such tags in the document at http://maps.unimelb.edu.au/sitemap.xml -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtui tive.com twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com http://www.woowoowoo.com ~~~ * ~~~ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** Network Ten Pty Ltd ABN 91 052 515 250 Network Ten Disclaimer. This e-mail (including all attachments) is intended solely for the named addressee. If you receive it in error, please let us know by reply e-mail, delete it from your system and destroy the copies. This e-mail is also subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or transmitted without the written consent of the copyright owner. E-mails may be interfered with, may contain computer viruses or other defects and may not be successfully replicated on other systems. We give no warranties in relation to these matters. If you have any doubts about the authenticity of an e-mail purportedly sent by us, please contact us immediately.
Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help
On Nov 2, 2009, at 6:58 AM, Adam Smith wrote: Swami; I'll hazard a guess here and assume you're using Firefox; and you've done what I did and gone tohttp://maps.unimelb.edu.au/sitemap.xml , seen a mass of test on screen Because that file is being served as 'text/html' instead of 'text/xml' as it should. That is server misconfiguration. I'm not surprised Googlebot doesn't pick it up. Safari shows the same issue. Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://l-c-n.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1
Gday all, We're all agreed that tables should only be used for tabular data, and should be marked up properly for accessibility. *WCAG 1.0 and 2.0 links about table accessibility and specific markup* WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 5.2 says For data tables that have two or more logical levels of row or column headers, use markup to associate data cells and header cells. [Priority 1] http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/#tech-table-structure http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#identifying-table-rows-columns And in a working draft for WCAG 2.0, HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0*, Section 7.5, Identifying groups of rows: Use thead to group repeated table headers, tfoot for repeated table footers, and tbody for other groups of rows. (optional) http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_rowgroup Section 7.6 Identifying groups of columns: Use the colgroup and col elements to group columns. (optional) http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_colgroup Noting, that both are optional, under WCAG 2.0 (working draft). *XHTML Basic 1.1* Now that there are more and more handheld devices being used to access the web, I have been thinking that some websites might benefit from moving to a different markup: XHTML Basic 1.1, particularly if the majority of their user-base are on handheld devices. This way they can serve up something the majority of their audience can use and also allow access through a desk- or lap-top device. *Questions* XHTML Basic 1.1 does not include thead, tbody and tfoot, along with col and colgroup, which is mentioned under WCAG 1.0 and WCAG 2.0 for acessible complex data tables. http://www.w3.org/2007/09/dtd-comparison.html Can a complex table be accessible without these elements, or do we, as developers, accept the loss of accessibility (both on a practical and compliance level) on data tables with the advent of the mobile web**? As much as I might like to support the argument that complex tables should never appear on mobiles, I'm not sure it's realistic. There may be a time when a complex table in XHTML Basic 1.1 is served up to both handheld, and desk- and lap- top devices. In that event, what can the developer do? Kat * Wow, that's a working draft from 2003, SIX years ago. Can that be true? ** Not my preferred option. Is this too complex for a Monday morning? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help
Because that file is being served as 'text/html' instead of 'text/xml' as it should. That is server misconfiguration. I'm not surprised Googlebot doesn't pick it up. yes, quite right, unfortunately, I don't think I can get the CMS to serve it correctly as xml, however google digested it happily enough - just failed to spider all URLs - something which I now know is normal. The only puzzle I still have is with the search results in our Custom Search Engine (still off topic!) but why would the public search return a different amount to the custom search? I have to admit, after 5 months of no change, this week it's gone from 1 result to 21 - go figure! Thanks again to all who replied. It's just reinforced to me that if you want an internal search engine that really works and is controllable, that leaving it up to the magic donkeys at google is really not an option. Still trying to convince our fine institution of that ;-) -- Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com http://www.woowoowoo.com ~~~ * ~~~ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1
Steve Green wrote: I am tempted to say that this is a moot point. In my experience complex data tables are inaccessible to screen reader users because they have great difficulty forming a mental model of them. Marking them up perfectly semantically doesn't help. If you use 'normal' means of navigating, the table cell contents are read sequentially. Each cell is usually understandable but you get no sense of the structure and relationships with the column and row headings. If you use the table navigation commands, the column and/or row headers are read in addition to the cell contents. This provides structural information but the user has to mentally separate the header and cell data before adding them to their mental model. This is difficult enough with simple tables but I don't recall even highly proficient screen reader users successfully navigating complex tables during user testing. What I can't say is whether any other user group derives any benefit from the correct semantic markup of tables. Off the top of my head I can't think of any. I also cannot think of any applications (e.g. search engines, news scrapers etc) that programmatically access websites that would benefit from this either. Thanks for that Steve! :) Then would the answer, perhaps, be to give a small succinct paragraph about the tabular data, with the most important points (if they exist), and perhaps a link to contact details if the user wanted to know more? And not worry about thead, tfoot, tbody, col, colgroup, etc? Would that be an acceptable accessibility alternative? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Kat Sent: 02 November 2009 01:35 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1 Steve Green wrote: I am tempted to say that this is a moot point. In my experience complex data tables are inaccessible to screen reader users because they have great difficulty forming a mental model of them. Marking them up perfectly semantically doesn't help. If you use 'normal' means of navigating, the table cell contents are read sequentially. Each cell is usually understandable but you get no sense of the structure and relationships with the column and row headings. If you use the table navigation commands, the column and/or row headers are read in addition to the cell contents. This provides structural information but the user has to mentally separate the header and cell data before adding them to their mental model. This is difficult enough with simple tables but I don't recall even highly proficient screen reader users successfully navigating complex tables during user testing. What I can't say is whether any other user group derives any benefit from the correct semantic markup of tables. Off the top of my head I can't think of any. I also cannot think of any applications (e.g. search engines, news scrapers etc) that programmatically access websites that would benefit from this either. Thanks for that Steve! :) Then would the answer, perhaps, be to give a small succinct paragraph about the tabular data, with the most important points (if they exist), and perhaps a link to contact details if the user wanted to know more? And not worry about thead, tfoot, tbody, col, colgroup, etc? Would that be an acceptable accessibility alternative? Kat It depends on what your objectives are. Many of my clients have a contractual obligation to meet the letter of the WCAG, in which case using the correct semantics meets their objectives even though it results in a poor user experience. The same would be the case if you were concerned about the tables being programmatic accessible. If your objective is legal compliance, providing the information by alternative means is certainly an option, and the provision of contact details may well be sufficient depending on the prevailing legal environment. You would need to put in place a procedure to deal with requests for help, and there would likely be a cost - might it just be cheaper to fix the tables? If your objective is a good user experience, don't use complex tables. Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1
Hi Kat, That really depends - without user research it's hard to know what conclusions about the data are relevant and of interest to people consuming that data; plus if the purpose is for people to draw their own conclusions (hence why you're *providing *all that data) then it doesn't make sense to bias it with pre-formed conclusions. If you *have* to use tabulated data then that's a challenge, sure, but I suggest going back over the business case for presenting the data and seeing if there's some other way the *information* can be presented. Looks at alternative presentation formats such as filtering - but as I said it depends because datasets hidden behind a search/filter form can be frustrating to users who may want to browse the matrix to figure out what they want if they're unfamiliar with the data model or want to identify trends and work backwards. Comes down to user goals. Nathanael Boehm Freelance web user interaction designer UX · IxD · UI design · Prototyping · HTML · CSS · JS · Usability · Accessibility · Social media Imagine Innovation · UXnet Canberra · OpenAustralia · BarCampCanberra www.purecaffeine.com http://www.purecaffeine.com/about/ Canberra, Australia 0409 288 464 On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Kat k...@t-tec.com.au wrote: Steve Green wrote: I am tempted to say that this is a moot point. In my experience complex data tables are inaccessible to screen reader users because they have great difficulty forming a mental model of them. Marking them up perfectly semantically doesn't help. If you use 'normal' means of navigating, the table cell contents are read sequentially. Each cell is usually understandable but you get no sense of the structure and relationships with the column and row headings. If you use the table navigation commands, the column and/or row headers are read in addition to the cell contents. This provides structural information but the user has to mentally separate the header and cell data before adding them to their mental model. This is difficult enough with simple tables but I don't recall even highly proficient screen reader users successfully navigating complex tables during user testing. What I can't say is whether any other user group derives any benefit from the correct semantic markup of tables. Off the top of my head I can't think of any. I also cannot think of any applications (e.g. search engines, news scrapers etc) that programmatically access websites that would benefit from this either. Thanks for that Steve! :) Then would the answer, perhaps, be to give a small succinct paragraph about the tabular data, with the most important points (if they exist), and perhaps a link to contact details if the user wanted to know more? And not worry about thead, tfoot, tbody, col, colgroup, etc? Would that be an acceptable accessibility alternative? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help
How I love this community! I haven't solved my problems yet, but based on the comments and ideas I've gathered in the past few days, the site has improved substantially. This latest comment from Philippe... On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Philippe Wittenbergh e...@l-c-n.com wrote: Because that file is being served as 'text/html' instead of 'text/xml' as it should. That is server misconfiguration. I dismissed at first, thinking our CMS wouldn't allow me to tweak such fundamental settings, but it led me into the bowels of the support forums where I dredged up the little slice of code I needed. Now, the sitemap.xml as well as the kml and gpx feeds are all served correctly as text/xml - did I say how I love this community? - and I've a grudging respect for MySource Matrix too! -- Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com http://www.woowoowoo.com ~~~ * ~~~ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Blog Launch: AGIMO Web Publishing Guide Review [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
(Posted on behalf of the AGIMO Web Publishing Guide Team) == As part of the ongoing review of the Australian Government Web Publishing Guide, the Australian Government Information Management Office (AGIMO) has recently launched their first externally-facing blog at: http://wpgblog.agimo.gov.au The Web Publishing Guide Blog has a few purposes: 1. The blog will be used to consult with users of the Web Publishing Guide and understand their needs. This will be useful input as we review and update the Guide. 2. The blog will provide a practical example of an operating government blog, with working approaches for managing moderation, terms of use and other issues. We hope this will be useful for agencies that are considering using blogs to support their own work. 3. The blog will open up the redevelopment of the Web Publishing Guide, and allow people to read and comment on the range of website design and maintenance issues that we will consider as we review and update the Guide. This might include topics like accessibility, content management, governance or usability. The project blog will operate for at least as long as the project to review and redevelop the Web Publishing Guide. The review team expects to be posting approximately once a week during development, and, where necessary, will respond to comments during business hours as soon as they are able. Expect more posts to appear on a regular basis over the next couple of months - to stay informed on updates, subscribe to the blog's RSS feed at http://wpgblog.agimo.gov.au/feed/ . We hope to hear from you via our comments section soon. Regards, The Web Publishing Guide Team http://webpublishing.agimo.gov.au Finance Australian Business Number (ABN): 61 970 632 495 Finance Web Site: www.finance.gov.au IMPORTANT: This transmission is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain confidential or legally privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by telephone on 61-2-6215- and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. If responding to this email, please send to the appropriate person using the suffix .gov.au. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
