RE: [WSG] Fwd: remove widows/orphans?

[P.H.Lauke]

As widows/orphans in paragraphs depend heavily on
various factors (screen/window and font size, to name a few),
there is no reliable way I'm aware of that could help you here,
I'm afraid.
 
Unrelated to this issue, but interesting nonetheless in the
context of widows/orphans:
 
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/page.html#break-inside
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
<>

RE: [WSG] Definition list formatting problem in IE

[P.H.Lauke]

Have you tried *not* floating the dd?

#apiresults dt
{
width: 8em;
float: left;
clear: left;
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
font-weight: normal;
}

#apiresults dd
{
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}

Should be enough.

Patrick

> -Original Message-
> From: Miles Tillinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 27 May 2004 08:09
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Definition list formatting problem in IE
> 
> 
> Update!
> 
> Added width: 50em; to dd and it stopped it from floating to 
> the right.  But now the dd wraps at a fixed width!  I want it 
> to go 100% but it won't play ball...
> 
> Mt.
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Miles Tillinger 
> > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 3:26 PM
> > To: Web Standards Group (E-mail)
> > Subject: [WSG] Definition list formatting problem in IE
> > 
> > 
> > Surprise!  A formatting problem in IE...
> > 
> > In IE5+ and Opera, the second dd, which contains the Category 
> > links, is jumping up and floating to the right of the first 
> > dd with the URL.  It displays fine in Firefox and Netscape 7.
> > 
> > html/css is at http://www.streetdaddy.com/wsg/index2.html
> > 
> > Thanks in advance,
> > 
> > Miles.
> > *
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RE: [WSG] Impairment browsers (insert correct pc term here)

[P.H.Lauke]

> It's a real heads-up to listen to a 
> website the way
> the people using speech software like JAWS hear it.

Or, as I always say: it's a real eye opener ;)
(and before anybody pipes up about how un-PC this is, a colleague
of mine who is visually impaired often uses that phrase as well - for
a bit of shock value)

P
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RE: [WSG] Impairment browsers (insert correct pc term here)

[P.H.Lauke]

Title: Message



Ok, 
the proper general term for this is "Assistive Technology" (AT for 
short).
 
Text/braille browsers: Lynx and BrailleSurf
Screenreaders and speech browsers: Dolphin Supernova, JAWS, IBM HPR, 
pwWebSpeak, WindowsEyes.
Most 
of these have demo versions you can download. Howerver, I would say that - 
unless you actually know
what 
you're doing when using these browsers - it may do more harm than good to test 
in these (especially
the 
screenreaders), as your testing will not reflect the way a regular user would 
employ them. There are
many 
setting etc (e.g. verbosity settings) that are not ideal in the default. Also, 
many people make the mistake
of 
listening to the entire output of the screenreader, whereas visually impaired 
users will skip through a page at
high 
speed, then often backtrack and slow down as needed (similar to visually 
skim-reading the page).
Without good command of the software, your testing will be inherently 
flawed.
 
Patrick

Patrick H. 
LaukeWebmaster / University of Salfordhttp://www.salford.ac.uk 


  -Original Message-From: Jamie Mason 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 26 May 2004 
  11:16To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: [WSG] 
  Impairment browsers (insert correct pc term here)
  Hi,
  I recently 
  downloaded standalone versions of old versions of the major browsers for 
  testing (and am aware of the imperfections of these) but was curious after 
  reading the post on 'Lynx'...
   
  Does anyone know 
  the names (and ideally urls) to download speech, text browsers etc? I 
  know nothing about these and would really love a chance to be able to test my 
  work on these directly. Apologies for not knowing the correct pc term for 
  categorising these.
   
  Thanks in 
  advance,
   
  
  Jamie Mason: Design
   
   

RE: [WSG] IE. Stopping a table from stretching past the containing div

[P.H.Lauke]

Check your table's width, padding and margin. In the worst case, drop the width from
100% to something like 99.5%. I may be wrong, but I think this is another instance of
the box model problem IE has...
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
<>

RE: [WSG] Good DOM tutorial?

[P.H.Lauke]

This got me started fairly quickly with my JS DOM experiments
http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/tutorials/index.php?tut=0&part=24
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
<>

RE: [WSG] Serious IE Mac troubles

[P.H.Lauke]

Not looked at your stylesheets, so maybe I'm completely off base,
but...you could take the opposite approach:



@import 'iewin.css'; /* IE5/Mac does not understand this and ignores it */


(import trick gathered from http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/)

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 20 May 2004 14:19
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Serious IE Mac troubles
> 
> 
> Hello fellas. Well, I am pretty much stumped.
> 
> http://www.theward.net/jmuweb/index.html>
> http://www.theward.net/jmuweb/stylesheet.css>
> http://www.theward.net/jmuweb/iewin.css>
> http://www.theward.net/jmuweb/iemac.css>
> 
> Regardless of how I call up attributes in the iemac.css file, 
> they don't
> seem to be applying themselves. I've even tried flagging them 
> important.
> The only thing that has applied itself over from iemac.css is 
> the removal
> of the h3 tag's background image.
> 
> I'm using the double hack method to call up the stylesheet, 
> as I'd really
> rather not bloat the main CSS file if at all possible.
> 
> Also, I've been looking at it, and I can't figure out why 
> containerbg.gif
> is shifted over next to the leftside navigation instead of 
> residing behind
> it like it should be. Any help is appreciated. I'm relatively new at
> debugging for IE Mac. I'm beginning to hate this flavour 
> worse then the
> Windows version!
> 
> --Ryan Christie
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://shadyland.theward.net
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RE: [WSG] Safari on x86

[P.H.Lauke]

> -Original Message-
> From: Ralph [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 20 May 2004 09:42
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Safari on x86
> 
> 
> Hi all..
> 
> I hope this is not too off topic..
> 
> But I came across a project on SourceForge called "PearPC" (URL:
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/pearpc/ ) which seems to 
> allow MacOS to run
> on x86 (and posix)..
> 
> For some time I been wondering how I can get Safari (or any other Mac
> browser) to work on a x86.. I'd really like to hear from 
> anyone who has been
> able to get it to work.. Or at least thinking of trying...
> 
> If you wish to reply, feel free to reply off-list to my address...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ralph
> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] height problem

[P.H.Lauke]

> From: Mordechai Peller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> I recall reading somewhere that you can style the  element.
 
Interestingly enough, I was playing with that the other night...
http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/details.php?id=34
Works best in Firefox / Gecko based browsers at the moment...
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk 
NŠÇ.²ÈžX¬µú+†ÛiÿünËZÖvÈ+¢êh®Òyèm¶ŸÿÁæìÝj·l‚º.¦Šàþf¢—ø.‰×Šw¬qùŸ¢»(™èbžÛ(žš,¶)àazX¬¶­¶)à…éi

RE: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'

[P.H.Lauke]

> The only way I can see a browser beating IE is if it looks, feels and 
> behaves like IE in every way possible.

If it looks like IE, feels like IE, tastes like IE, then people are more
often than not going to be completely unaware that they ARE using something
that's not IE. Maybe that's what you intend - having the new browsers silently,
transparently supplanting IE - but this may cause more confusion than any
GUI inconsistencies.
The points that you mention (security etc) are, for the most part, of little
relevance to the average user (they just assume it all magically happens).

My opinion, anyway..

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] height problem

[P.H.Lauke]

> I'd suggest the best option would be to make it a background image on
> the body tag. Your body tag is going to be your top level containing
> block so it will always stretch to the height of your content.

Maybe being pedantic, but the top level container would be the HTML element,
and backgrounds that are meant to stretch to the entire window/viewport
should be placed as style rules to it. Otherwise, it can happen that, if the
content is too short, the background itself will only appear behind the
content, resulting in even more white space at the bottom.
(although I seem to recall that this problem only appears once you start
sending XHTML strict with a proper XML mime type)

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] Tables are bad because...

[P.H.Lauke]

> From: Chris Blown 
[...]
> One of the things that I find hard to believe in this whole debate is
> that tables are some how seen as "a non standards based approach".

I see that view a lot from people who just discovered the beauty of CSS,
and are going a bit mad in the fight to kill off tables, even when they're
the appropriate markup to use (tabular data).

> Of
> course an argument could be made that tables only exist in 
> the standard
> for legacy reasons, since dropping them would break the whole web.

Well, for tabular data, there is *no* equivalent with the same
semantic and structural properties of a well written, multi-row, multi-column
table. Using divs and spans and stuff to recreate a table look without
tables for tabular data shows a complete misunderstanding of what the
actual purpose of the markup is all about. Yes, you may end up eliminating
every single table, and get a nice glowing warm feeling...but you've effectively
broken any relationship which was defined between the various headings and
the data cells, turning well formatted tabular information into a meaningless
mess...

> does the fact that we use them for other purposes make it wrong? 

Of course not. However, by the same reasoning, it doesn't make it right
to pervert the element's original purpose, the same way that blockquote should
not be perverted to get visual indentations, for instance...it doesn't make
the actual blockquote element wrong, but it shouldn't be used in that way.
It's the perversion of purpose that is wrong.

> The popular response to Andy's article that using the odd 
> table without
> nesting them, is simple practical advice. I don't really think the odd
> table is that detrimental to our efforts of advocating web standards. 

Exactly. As long as the designers/developers are making the decision in 
full knowledge that there might be a better way to handle the situation without
having to resort to tables, but that - due to time constraints, need for
legacy browser support (in a visual/layout sense), work with multiple authors
who may not be up to speed with table-less layout - in this particular situation
using a table will do for now.

Just going through this email, I hope I'm not giving the impression that
I'm in disagreement with you...I see that we're both coming from the same
pragmatic approach. Just filling in the other side of the argument kind of thing...

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] Tables are dead?

[P.H.Lauke]

Off topic really, insofar as it doesn't directly solve your problem...but your post
actually made me think "the other way around", if you will...how to display a
table, containing tabular data, in a more "sexy" way.
 
A first attempt, still riddled with bugs, can be seen here
http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/details?id=36
 
For what it's worth, I do think that your data would be best served with a table,
but probably more along the lines of the one in my experiment, which of course
fails miserably in IE...
 
At least I hope this sparks some further ideas,
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk  

RE: [WSG] decendant selector nav problem

[P.H.Lauke]

Not seen your original post, but: what were the styles that were
giving you problems? And was it only Netscape that was behaving
badly?

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: Kevin McMonagle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 17 May 2004 11:39
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] decendant selector nav problem
> 
> 
> Hi,
> I had sent a post earlier regarding trouble that I was having 
> with a navbar 
> in ns 6 mac.
> Well i solved the problem.
> 
> For the nav bar links i created a decendant selector like this:
> 
> #nav a:link {...}
> #nav a:hover {...}
> 
> But i also had the regular link states specified in the style 
> sheet, like 
> this:
> 
> a: link
> 
> a: hover  so on...
> 
> Nestscape was partially using the regular link states and 
> partially using 
> the decendant selector for the nav bar.
> 
> So i deleted the regular link states and it fixed the problem.
> 
> Could somebody tell me why netscape was using both styles and 
> how to avoid 
> this in the future.
> Luckily i dont really need the regular link states in this 
> style sheet but 
> may in the future.
> 
> -Kevin
> 
> _
> Express yourself with the new version of MSN Messenger! 
> Download today - 
> it's FREE! 
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

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RE: [WSG] CSS calendar

[P.H.Lauke]

I'd argue that calendars are a prime example of tabular data, so I
would strongly advise against attempting any table-less, pure-css solution that
can convey the exact same semantic structure that a properly built table
with correct THs with row and column scope can give...

Anyway, this could help http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/projects/03/

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: Barbara Dozetos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 14 May 2004 14:11
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] CSS calendar
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Anyone have examples of calendars created with CSS?  I want 
> to create a 
> calendar for our clients to see when we have training scheduled, etc. 
> and I'm curious to see what others have managed.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Barb
> 
> -- 
> Barbara Dozetos   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Physician's Computer Company  Marketing Team
> 1 Main St., Ste 7 802-846-5532
> Winooski, VT 05404
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[P.H.Lauke]

> From: Ray Cauchi
[snip]
> There have been positive arguments made for finishing your course
> (such as displaying ability to finish something you started), but from
> my experience, its more what you do now that matters.

Slightly OT, but...

I remember years ago when debating this issue with a friend, a gem of 
knowledge I gathered was that the (then) director general of ZDF, one of
the two major national TV stations in Germany, had a degree in Pathology
... which does go to show that it's not always *what* you study that's
important...

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
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RE: [WSG] Design Philosophy

[P.H.Lauke]

> Yes, but are there any really hard statistics about what the 
> public is 
> doing.  We know roughly 7% don't use or diable javascript.  But what 
> about disabling styles?


Why is that relevant? Heck, it's almost like we're going back to the
old "how many % of users still run at 800x600...lamers"

We know it's 7% ? Do we ? Lies, statistics and lies...it always comes
down to *your* particular audience.

Yes, we have to give up a level of control on how our pages are presented
(if you want pixel perfect, go back to print, or use flash/PDF/etc), but
we gain flexible delivery based on user preferences. We're not forcing our
visual sensibilities onto users that don't want them (e.g. those surfing
with a simple text browsers couldn't give a damn about lines and lines of
markup relating to presentation, or stylesheets). However, that's obviously
*not* the same as saying that we should therefore not care about presentation
at all.


P
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RE: [WSG] Design Philosophy

[P.H.Lauke]

> Can I copy your statement, paste it in Illustrator, make it 
> prettty & bold, and
> post it here at work on the bulletin board? Please?!

You could, but then you'd just show that you haven't understood
the basic premise behind his statement...as you're effectively
trying to force a certain visual presentation onto users, rather
than letting them decide how it should be presented...
Unless it's meant to be an ironic statement...

;)

P
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk 
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RE: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

[P.H.Lauke]

> -Original Message-
> From: Andy Budd
[snip]
> Whereas I can see a good reason to use semantic HTML, is there really 
> much point in worrying if your ID's/classes have semantic meaning. 
> Becasue they are user defined, there probably is never going to be a 
> time when that information will be used by another machine.


I haven't read the article in question yet, but this just caught my eye...
A fair point, but in my mind it makes sense to still keep IDs/classes semantic,
mainly for your own sake as a developer, and to make things easier to maintain
in future.
An example: when I first started in this job, I went through all the code
left by my predecessor. She had obviously dabbled with CSS, but obviously not
understood the idea of separation of content and presentation at all, leading to
wonderful things like

blah

with

.redlink { color: red; }

This was all fine and dandy...until the corporate identity guidelines changed and
all links needed to be make green instead of red. As a quick fix, I did

.redlink { color: green; }

Great...so now I had a class "redlink" making things green. Intuitive...
I ended up simplifying the entire CSS anyway, removing the need for any such classes
in most cases, but if I hadn't, I would have had to go through the entire site and
find/replace redlink with greenlink or something as well...

Same with things like "floatLeft"...what if you later decide that you don't want
to float it at all? Heck, even "col1" does imply that it's one of many columns...what 
if
you later redo the whole CSS and the whole block is on its own, i.e. not a column 
anymore?

As always, every web developer needs to get a clear idea of how far down the 
"eradication
of presentational markup and IDs/classnames" they want to go. Often I do make hard and 
fast
calls about certain class names, for instance, when I know that a page is only going 
to be
needed for a few months or something. For longer term pages and site sections, I try a 
bit
harder to keep the content as presentation-agnostic as possible, classnames and all...

My GBP0.02 anyway,

Patrick
p.s.: and now I'll go off and read the article, to see if I'm now wildly off topic

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] IE 6 problem

[P.H.Lauke]

> Now, can someone tell me why that 
> works?  Doesn't 
> this entirely defeat the purpose of end tags?  I thought spaces were 
> ignored.

Simple answer: IE is a buggy browser. It tries, it's better than previous
versions, but it's still plagued with annoying problems like this one.
Yes, in theory the spaces should have no ill effect there, but IE disagrees...

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk 
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RE: [WSG] print headers/footers

[P.H.Lauke]

> From: Barbara Dozetos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[snip]
> but 
> because we 
> can't reliably control page breaks,

Page-break-after should be supported since IE4.0 (not tested
it though) http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/page.html#page-break-props

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [Maybe Spam] RE: [WSG] print headers/footers

[P.H.Lauke]

However, if it comes to court, the case will - in my mind anyway - have to be made 
about specific features that are or aren't discriminating, and not (just) general 
principles. As I said - and I don't think we're disagreeing here, just want to spell 
it out - you *can* design for the majority, as long as you ensure that your design 
degrades gracefully and meaningfully for the minorities. Otherwise, you just end up 
design to the lowest of the lowest common denominators, and we may as well just do 
unstyled html 2.0 or something.

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> Original Message-
> From: Robert O'Neill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 26 April 2004 16:16
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [Maybe Spam] RE: [WSG] print headers/footers


> It was not Barbara's features I was highlighting (please don't take that the wrong 
> way), just the fact that 
> generally designing a web site for a majority, inherently means you are 
> discriminating against a minority.
> 
> Minorities rule in a court of law.
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RE: [WSG] print headers/footers

[P.H.Lauke]

Actually, by default most browsers (nowadays anyway) seem to
leave out background images (and colours...and borders...etc) on printouts;
this needs to be explicitly *enabled*.

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: Bert Doorn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 26 April 2004 16:17
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] print headers/footers
> 
> 
> G'day
> 
> A graphical page background should repeat on each page when 
> printed (unless
> the user has turned printing of images and backgrounds off), 
> so perhaps put
> the logo in as a background (for the print style sheet) and 
> add appropriate
> padding to the page.
> 
> Regards
> -- 
> Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
> www.betterwebdesign.com.au
> Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Barbara Dozetos
> Sent: Monday, 26 April 2004 10:18 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] print headers/footers
> 
> 
> I've done that with a header for the print version only, but 
> because we 
> can't reliably control page breaks, I'm lost on how to make sure our 
> logo shows up on each printed page.  All is fine if it prints out to 
> only one page, or even two, because I can use both a header and a 
> footer, but the pages in between are left without the logo.
> 
> 
> *
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> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] print headers/footers

[P.H.Lauke]

In this particular case though, I'm assuming the styling that Barbara is after is only 
an "extra" feature, some eye candy, and that the printouts still make sense on 
browsers that don't support print styles...so, as well meant as the warning was, let's 
not lose sight of the real issues.

If I say "our site is designed to look nice in browsers that support 
standards-compliant code", for instance, I'm not discriminating against users of 
old/alternate browsers as long as it degrades gracefully and still makes sense without 
the styles...

Of course, if Barbara was hoping to put essential information in purely CSS generated 
headers/footers, which would not appear in browsers which don't support print styles, 
then yes, your point is valid...

P

> -Original Message-
> From: Robert O'Neill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 26 April 2004 15:26
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] print headers/footers
> 
> 
> Just a quick note to all UK designers out there (can't speak for other countries), 
> if you design with 'most of our
> visitors' in mind be afraid, very afraid. A printed page with headers and footers 
> stating Disabilities
>  Discrimination Act 1995 could be heading your way soon. 
> 
> Unless your designing an Intranet or a network site that is not available to the 
> public, design your site with 
> everybody in mind, regardless of what your user reports tell you. 
> 
> One of the main reasons for standards is accessibility to all.
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RE: [WSG] print headers/footers

[P.H.Lauke]

As far as I'm aware, those are handled by the user agent and
outside of the "remit" of CSS, if you will...
Personally, it would strike me as being an interference with
the users' expected behaviour if you changed that...

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: Barbara Dozetos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 26 April 2004 14:47
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] print headers/footers
> 
> 
> Hi all --
> 
> Me again, working on a print style sheet.  Is there some way 
> to control 
> the headers and footers that are automatically added to a 
> page printed 
> from a browser?  Can I add something to the line where the 
> page numbers are?
> 
> Barb
> 
> -- 
> Barbara Dozetos   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Physician's Computer Company  Marketing Team
> 1 Main St., Ste 7 802-846-5532
> Winooski, VT 05404
> 
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] style sheet for print

[P.H.Lauke]

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/articles/webrev/21.html 
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RE: [WSG] A discussion leads to an idea - Dynamic CSS!

[P.H.Lauke]

> Has anyone ever toyed with this idea before and if so what were the
> results???

I'm amazed how people seem to suddenly get this "A-HA!" moment. In the last
few months I've read various forum discussions, blog entries and
articles about "wouldn't it be great to create your CSS via PHP/ASP/etc?"

I did something like this about 4 years ago. It worked pretty fine, but
the main problem is that you risk putting extra strain on the server, as
the dynamic stylesheet needs to be created at every single request, and
can't be cached on the user's machine. So any bandwidth-saving benefits
that the separation of content and presentation might have go up in smoke.
You can limit the damage slightly by having a main, static stylesheet that
contains the bulk of styling and can be cached, and a second minimal one
for the few dynamic properties you want to have. At least this way only
the small one needs to be generated and sent to the browser.

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster
External Relations Division 
Faraday House 
University of Salford 
Greater Manchester 
M5 4WT 

Tel: +44 (0) 161 295 4779

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
webteam: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY  
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RE: [WSG] Valid Flash...

[P.H.Lauke]

> From: Nick Lo
[...]
> Isn't the point being made though that in order to use Flash in pages 
> and still have them validate requires the use of what are essentially 
> hacks. 

No, what it means is that some tricks need to be used in order to get
consistent cross-browser rendering of flash as an . Nothing wrong
with using  for any kind of media (flash, quicktime, etc).
This is on par with box-model-hacks in that, in an ideal world where all
browsers behaved consistently the same, it would not be necessary...but in
the real world, this is necessary, unless you want to revert to old school
non-standard markup (or creating different version of a page/site for different
browsers).

Just my interpretation, mind...

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] Valid Flash...

[P.H.Lauke]

Could anybody confirm if this new method solves the "non-streaming" problem
of the Flash Satay method ? http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay

Cheers,

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Bentley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 13 April 2004 10:07
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Valid Flash...
> 
> 
> The imitable Ian Hickson has some valid HTML to embed 
> Macromedia Flash 
> files using only the OBJECT tag...
> 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2004Apr/0071.html
> 
> Cheers,
> chris.
> 
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> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] Impressive CSS Example

[P.H.Lauke]

I said it to a few colleagues at the time, and I still hold the same opinion now: it's 
cute, for sure, but here we are, talking about semantic, structurally sound markup, 
and the division between presentation and content...and then something like this comes 
along which is perverting markup (albeit with clean enough divs) for presentational 
purposes. This is about as "web standards" minded as ASCII art, in my view...
 
Patrick

-Original Message- 
From: Darian Cabot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sat 03/04/2004 13:09 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: [WSG] Impressive CSS Example



The power of CSS!! hehehe (This dude has way too much time) (>_<) I didn't
check it's validity :P

Check it out...
http://www.designdetector.com/tips/3DBorderDemo2.html

Darian Cabot
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Cabot Consultants Pty Ltd
Software Engineer / Website Design
http://www.cabotconsultants.com.au
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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<>

RE: [WSG] Calling for some assistance...

[P.H.Lauke]

You just need to add extra padding to the relevant bits, if I'm not mistaken...

#navigation
{
clear: both;
text-align: left;
padding: 15px;
padding-bottom: 4px; /* changed */
}

#navigation a
{
text-decoration: none;
color: #000;
border: 1px solid #000;
border-bottom: 0px;
padding-bottom: 5px; /* changed */
padding-top: 5px;
padding-left: 10px;
padding-right: 10px;
background-color: #DDF;
}

#navigation a.current
{
background-color: #CCF;
padding-bottom: 6px; /* changed */
font-weight: bold;
}

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk 
-Original Message-
From: Chris Stratford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 01 April 2004 15:13
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Calling for some assistance...


Hey guys,

sorry but im having a few troubles with my tabbed layout.
I have coded it all myself, and i think it looks great.
(Russ, took your advice and its a list now too, so it degrades well!)

Now - im just having a problem with the text, being a little too low, its nearly 
sitting on the bottom border:
www.neester.com/tdir

as you will see its very close, i just want, maye a 4 pixel gap between the text, and 
the box... but without seperatinng them, and i have tried so much, and it just keeps 
seperating the tabs and the box...

any help would be appreciated.

Reply OFF LIST, if you are simply sending me advice, and the information isnt really 
relevant to the list etc...
you get my drift - thanks heaps fellas!

-- 
Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://www.neester.com
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RE: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)

[P.H.Lauke]

> From: Leo J. O'Campo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[...]
> A good point... but if someone elects to turn off javascript they do it
> at their own disadvantage.

*cough* accessibility *cough*

Also don't forget that in some instances the specific setup/capabilities of machines 
is not up to the individual users (e.g. large corporates with draconian IT departments)

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster
University of Salford
www.salford.ac.uk

<>

RE: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)

[P.H.Lauke]

> And seeing most people use IE, you might as well use javascript.

Whether or not people use IE has nothing to do with whether or not they have 
javascript enabled or not. 
Available, yes...but not necessarily enabled.
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster
University of Salford 
www.salford.ac.uk  
<>

RE: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)

[P.H.Lauke]

I beg to differ. If you re-read the thread starter, you'll see that the question was 
about "clicking a link, and making one thing visible, clicking another, and another 
one becomes visible". You can't toggle things on/off via clicks, and then let the user 
move out of the element to do something on the rest of the page. It's true you can use 
:hover/:focus, but that doesn't solve the original problem as far as I understood it.
 
P

-Original Message- 
From: Leo J. O'Campo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wed 31/03/2004 02:18 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do 
some things)



Patrick

It can be done in CSS by toggling the display visibility with the
a:hover and positioning.

Leo

On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 04:41  PM, P.H.Lauke wrote:

> What you describe can only be achieved with javascript, if you want to
> avoid server calls and do it all in a single document...the page needs
> to
> keep track of which link has been pressed, for instance...something
> that
> CSS is not meant for...
>
> Patrick
> 
> Patrick H. Lauke
> Webmaster
> University of Salford
> www.salford.ac.uk
> 

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NŠÇ.²ÈžX¬µú+†ÛiÿünËZÖvÈ+¢êh®Òyèm¶ŸÿÁæìÝj·l‚º.¦Šàþf¢—ø.‰×Šw¬qùŸ¢»(™èbžÛ(žš,¶)àazX¬¶­¶)à…éi

[WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)

[P.H.Lauke]

What you describe can only be achieved with javascript, if you want to
avoid server calls and do it all in a single document...the page needs to
keep track of which link has been pressed, for instance...something that
CSS is not meant for...
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster
University of Salford 
www.salford.ac.uk
<>

RE: [WSG] What tha!?

[P.H.Lauke]

Your server is erroneously sending the CSS as text/html, which is the wrong MIME type 
as it should be text/css.
 
Check your server config.
 
p.s.: apologies if this formats wrong...outlook web client is buggy
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster
External Relations Division 
Faraday House 
University of Salford 
Greater Manchester 
M5 4WT 

Tel: +44 (0) 161 295 4779

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
webteam: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY  


-Original Message- 
From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tue 30/03/2004 00:51 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: [WSG] What tha!?


I just checked my site www.cinema4duser.com in Mozilla and it wasn't applying 
CSS. what the A#%^$* have I done?? 

Thanks 
Peter 


Universal Head  
Design That Works. 

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore 
NSW 2048 Australia 
T (+612) 9517 1466 
F (+612) 9565 4747 
E [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
W www.universalhead.com 

…çb±Ë²*'–+-~Šá¶Úÿ›²ÖuªÝ
è+ƒôžzm§ÿðy»-jwZ­Û ®‹©¢¸?™¨¥þ¢uébë~gè®Ê&z§¶Ê'¦‹-Šx-¢Ø^–+-ëmŠx!zZ

RE: [WSG] tab navigation in CSS

[P.H.Lauke]

The classics:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slidingdoors/ 
 

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slidingdoors2/

Hope this helps,
 
Patrick

-Original Message- 
From: Barbara Dozetos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tue 23/03/2004 19:38 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: [WSG] tab navigation in CSS



Hello,

I'm wondering if anyone on this list could direct me to an example of a
good tab navigation bar done in CSS.  I want to create something similar
to the navigation on Amazon.com or apple.com -- in CSS, of course.

Thanks!

Barb

--
Barbara Dozetos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Physician's Computer CompanyMarketing Team
1 Main St., Ste 7   802-846-5532
Winooski, VT 05404


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<>

RE: [WSG] Help us redesign the WSG site

[P.H.Lauke]

I'd second that...I'll get my "Door to my garden" prepped for conversion :)
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=041%2F041%2Ecss

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 22 March 2004 11:19
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Help us redesign the WSG site
> 
> 
> How about doing a Zen Garden type thing and allow people to skin the 
> WSG site.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> 
> Andy Budd
> 
> http://www.message.uk.com/
> 
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RE: [WSG] transitional, accessible popups?

[P.H.Lauke]

> From: Manuel González Noriega [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[snip]
> You should consider however making it a little
> less mouse-centric by adding a onkeypress event that does 
> just the same
> than onclick. 

actually, this goes back to a discussion I'm trying to have
over on the W3C WAI IG list...and, as usual, still can't get a
straight answer out of them. The main point is: onclick is
actually activated by the keyboard as well (just try it and
you'll see). Now, in my testing, this holds true for pretty much
all modern browsers - haven't done any extensive testing with
older ones. Speaking to a guy from the W3C, I got the impression
that the official line is that onclick is actually a misnomer
for what should effectively be onactivation. onkeypress is just
as device-centric, and can pose problems as ANY key pressed will
activate that handler.

So, for all intents and purposes, onclick should NOT be considered
to be mouse centric, in the way that say onmouseover/onmouseout are.
Pretend that it's actually called onactivation. There's no issue
here...

For the rest of the argument, see
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2004JanMar/0512.html

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] transitional, accessible popups?

[P.H.Lauke]

Change 

onclick="window.open('index.cfm?id=23',

to

onclick="window.open(this.href,

This way, if you change your link's href,
you don't have to remember to change it in the 
javascript as well.

Also...while we're on sitepoint, you could
just look at Ian Lloyd's "perfect pop-up"
article http://www.sitepoint.com/article/perfect-pop-up

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] A rave about 's

[P.H.Lauke]

> From: Jeremy Flint [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> I do believe that he said "officially", not really speaking 
> for himself,
> but for the CSS community that supported that method as a 
> whole. 


Well...I'm part of the CSS community, and I was not consulted
on this...so how presumptuous of him to "officially" deprecate
it...

I hereby "officially" deprecate the use of tables for layout,
not really speaking for myself, but for the whole UK academic
webmaster community that supported that method as a whole...
so you see, my statement carries just about as much weight as
his...


Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

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RE: [WSG] Only IE or Actual CSS Rule

[P.H.Lauke]

> From: russ weakley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[snip]
> Did I cover myself  :)

Yup, your behind is safe for now ;)

P 
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RE: [WSG] Only IE or Actual CSS Rule

[P.H.Lauke]

Chris,
 
there 
is no "standard" when it comes to out-of-the-box 
presentation
of 
HTML elements. It's all good practice, but not enforced by any 
rules,
and 
browser manufacturers can choose what they think is the best 
way
to 
present something. Never trust in things like "but most other 
browsers
do it 
this way, so it must be the standard".
If you 
need a certain styling, consistently, across browsers, it's 
always
best 
to be very explicit in your CSS. Another similar example would 
be
the 
dotted underline on acronyms...there is no standard, most 
browsers
show 
it, but it's best to explicitly define it in your CSS.
 
Just 
my GBP 0.02,
 
Patrick

Patrick H. 
LaukeWebmaster / University of Salfordhttp://www.salford.ac.uk 

RE: [WSG] Superscript Text

[P.H.Lauke]

The purist's answer would of course be to use MathML
(and to heck with missing native support in IE) to mark it
up properly from a semantic point of view... ;-)
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk  
 
…çb±Ë²*'–+-~Šá¶Úÿ›²ÖuªÝ
è+ƒ

RE: [WSG] Overcoming Rejections

[P.H.Lauke]

"rejections" or "reservations" ? If it's the latter, then any of the various
"Making a business case for accessibility" type articles, extolling the benefits
of CSS, plus a reminder that the majority of today's browsers can cope with CSS
layouts just fine (except, of course, the boss' wife's Netscape 4.7, and she is often
the benchmark).
If it's outright rejection...remember that the boss/client is always right. You
can't force good things onto them, and in many cases - depending on the audience -
a nice hybrid/transitional layout is just fine - and, provided it's valid xhtml, can 
still
be mechanically "un-tabled" at a later date.
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk  

-Original Message- 
From: Jaime Wong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sat 13/03/2004 23:16 
To: WSG - CSS List 
Cc: 
Subject: [WSG] Overcoming Rejections




What will be the most appropriate way to overcome rejections from clients or
bosses when it comes to implementation of site with CSS instead of  tables.

Rejection such as browser compatibility saying that no worries about that
when using tables for layout even when explanations have been given.


With Regards
Jaime Wong
~~
SODesires Design Team
http://www.sodesires.com
~~


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áyØrë,Š‰åŠË_¢¸m¶ŸÿÁæìÝj·l‚º.¦Šà

RE: [WSG] Minor gripe

[P.H.Lauke]

Care to elaborate as to why ?
I usually wrap long-ish URLs in opening and closing brackets,
as that guarantees that they'll still be clickable even if
the line they're on is wrapped...

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: LC 55 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 12 March 2004 12:42
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Minor gripe
> 
> 
> 
> Hi everyone... a little OT (may be) A short time ago Peter 
> Firmonger wrote to say could anyone who uses an "Out of 
> office" auto email, to please desist.
> So here is my tuppence worth.
> 
> When someone requires us all to view a link...can they please 
> refrain from using the '>' at the end of the url. As in: 
> 
> "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";>
> 
> Please take the bracket of the url and simply use: 
> 
> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
> 
> Now my little rant is over...please, have a good weekend everyone.
> 
> Regards, JG
> 
> _
> Why Pay $35 for a .COM, .NET or .ORG Web Address? iDotz.Net 
> offers Cool Domains @ Great Prices! Starting @ $8.75 Go: 
> http://www.idotz.net
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RE: [WSG] Definition list wish

[P.H.Lauke]

> Then you could have something like this:
> 
>
>  Albatross
>  A sea bird
>  A tasty snack at the movies
>
>
>  Swallow
>  Coconut delivery system
>
> 

What's wrong with




Albatross
A sea bird
A tasty snack at the movies




Swallow
Coconut delivery system




?

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] Definition list wish

[P.H.Lauke]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what semantic meaning the example
tries to convey in the first place ?

A list of terms, which can have one or more descriptions ?

And how, in that case, is the use of UL bad ? Sure, UL is
generic, but it does get semantic meaning from its constituent
list items, in this case definition lists.

Or are we splitting hairs here ?

Moreover...are we not getting too specific with hypothetical
DLI elements and such ? I'm all for having very specific
tags when it comes to *storing* data (in XML, then you can write
your own super-specific, semantically charged tags DTD/Schema),
but is it really a good idea to clutter XHTML (which still is
primarily a way of marking up content for the web) to make
it fit specific semantic requirements ?

Patrick

> -Original Message-
> From: Lea de Groot 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 11 March 2004 10:38
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Definition list wish
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:20:35 -, P.H.Lauke wrote:
> > What's wrong with
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Albatross
> > A sea bird
> > A tasty snack at the movies
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Swallow
> > Coconut delivery system
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> Once again the two elements have been separated into two different 
> lists, removing semantic information.
> Bad, bad thing ;)
> 
> Lea
> -- 
> Lea de Groot
> Elysian Systems
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> * 
> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[P.H.Lauke]

*visually* you'd have a table...but what about the structure
underneath the shiny facade ?
 
Patrick

-Original Message- 
From: James Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wed 10/03/2004 23:57 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [WSG] Lists & weird  requirement




I believe Calendars would be a great use of floats, just set a height
and width, float left limit the row float to seven days and you have a
cascading day based calendar.

Cheers
James

Jaime Wong wrote:

>Just a quick question Russ to make sure I understand better.
>
>Calendars and events (with dates and venue) or even for e.g. certain
>competition results (with points) would be more suitable to be done with
>tables rather than CSS right?
>
>
>With Regards
>Jaime Wong
>
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<>

RE: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[P.H.Lauke]

Frank,
 
your main problem from what I can see is that, as you're floating everything,
you need to use a lot of "clear", but as you're still removing things from the
normal flow, you're getting issues with having the container elements, which have
the background colours applied, to show through properly...as there's nothing
in them anymore, with all that floating.
 
Assuming you want to go with the definition list idea, here's something I cooked
up in a few minutes. It might not be perfect, but seems to work ok.
 

 
and the styles at
 

 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk   
 

-Original Message- 
From: Frank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tue 09/03/2004 15:55 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: [WSG] Lists & weird  requirement




Hey all,

I've been running into a few weird problems with a layout I'm working on.
I'm retrieving results from a database, and displaying each record in a
, with each item in that record, displayed in an unordered-list.

The problem I'm having is when trying to alternate row-colours.  For some
reason, I can't seem to get the row colours working.  It just won't work.
I'm not sure if there's an issue with the way my style sheet is being laid
out, or if I'm just not doing something properly.

I've also noticed that in order to get all the items in the record to
display properly in the DIV, I have to add  just before
closing the DIV, otherwise, the content overlaps the bottom border of the
DIV.

Here are the screenshots of the problem I'm having:

a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/with_br.JPG (Alternating rows should
be visible, but they're not)

b) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/without_br.JPG

Here's a link to the stylesheet:
a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/styles.css


Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thank you!


Frank Manno
Design Interactive Group
www.di-group.net
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…çb±Ë²*'–+-~Šá¶Úÿ›²ÖuªÝ
è+ƒ

RE: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[P.H.Lauke]

It would actually be quite helpful if you could point us
to the html...

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: Frank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 09 March 2004 15:55
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Lists & weird  requirement
> 
> 
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> I've been running into a few weird problems with a layout I'm 
> working on. 
> I'm retrieving results from a database, and displaying each 
> record in a
> , with each item in that record, displayed in an unordered-list.
> 
> The problem I'm having is when trying to alternate 
> row-colours.  For some
> reason, I can't seem to get the row colours working.  It just 
> won't work. 
> I'm not sure if there's an issue with the way my style sheet 
> is being laid
> out, or if I'm just not doing something properly.
> 
> I've also noticed that in order to get all the items in the record to
> display properly in the DIV, I have to add  
> just before
> closing the DIV, otherwise, the content overlaps the bottom 
> border of the
> DIV.
> 
> Here are the screenshots of the problem I'm having:
> 
> a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/with_br.JPG (Alternating 
> rows should
> be visible, but they're not)
> 
> b) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/without_br.JPG
> 
> Here's a link to the stylesheet:
> a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/styles.css
> 
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thank you!
> 
> 
> Frank Manno
> Design Interactive Group
> www.di-group.net
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> * 
> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] Whats going on

[P.H.Lauke]

Stab 
in the dark time: could it be that for some reason today the content of that 
site was not valid xhtml, and some browsers started behaving funny because of 
that and not applying styles the way they should ? Or are you calling multiple 
stylesheets, and the sheet with all the positioning was not being served quickly 
enough by the server (did it work again on refresh at the time 
?)
 
We may 
need some more info to make a correct diagnosis...otherwise, put it down to sh*t 
happens..."the inter-web was having a bad day" type thing...
 
Patrick

Patrick H. 
LaukeWebmaster / University of Salfordhttp://www.salford.ac.uk 


  -Original Message-From: Jackie Reid 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 09 March 2004 
  11:07To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Whats 
  going on
  Hi you lot
   
  Can someone please explain this to 
  me...
   
  I have had a site up and running for a couple of 
  months and doing its thing just fine. Now today out of nowhere it suddenly 
  decides that absolute positioning is out and all those sections of the site 
  simply disappeared from view.
   
  After much tooing and frowing I decided to 
  try  floating them instead and Voila there are all the bits i couldnt see 
  before. WHY WHY WHY...Why would this have 
  happened. Got me totally beat.
   
  Anyone had any problems like this before and if 
  so what the heck was it.
   
  (must admit that im pretty proud of myself for 
  sorting it but thats not the point really)
   
   
  Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
  Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
  4035
   
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [WSG] Style Switcher and IE

[P.H.Lauke]

Alternatively...is IE set to such a high security level that it's not
accepting cookies at all, or not accepting cookies of sites without a
P3P certificate ? Worth checking as well, while you're at it...


Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: Jaime Wong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 08 March 2004 15:08
> To: WSG - CSS List
> Subject: [WSG] Style Switcher and IE
> 
> 
> 
> Hi I am not sure if it is appropriate to seek help for some javascript
> issues with styleswitcher here but I hope someone will be able to help
> because I have no idea what went wrong all of a sudden.
>  
> I am using the style switcher at http://www.alistapart
> com/articles/alternate/ on my site and all of a sudden IE 
> seems to have a
> problem with it (used to work and no changes has been done 
> with it). It will
> not remember the selected style and upon every reload, it 
> will switch back
> to the default style.
>  
> But when working with dreamweaver, and by using the preview 
> option, the
> style registers in IE. It only doesn't work when the site goes live.
>  
> All other browsers are working fine.
>  
> This is what I have in 
>  
> 
>  simple" href="../scripts/css/style_simple/simpleStyle.css" />
>  
> and in the body..
>  
>  onclick="setActiveStyleSheet('
> , 1);return false;" onmouseover="MM_swapImage('styles','','.
> /images/global/styles/tt_select.gif',1)" 
> onmouseout="MM_swapImgRestore()
> > alt="Switch to Glass
> Style" width="22" height="21" />
>  
> The script for switcher from above:
> onclick="setActiveStyleSheet('', 1);return false;"
>  
>  onclick="setActiveStyleSheet(
> simple', 1);return false;" onmouseover="MM_swapImage('styles','','.
> /images/global/styles/tt_select.gif',1)" 
> onmouseout="MM_swapImgRestore()
> > alt="Switch to Simple
> Style" width="20" height="21" />
>  
> The script for switcher from above:
> onclick="setActiveStyleSheet('simple', 1);return false;"
>  
>  
> The javascript is what I downloaded from http://www.alistapart
> com/articles/alternate/
> 
> 
> 
>  
> With Regards
> Jaime Wong
> ~~
> SODesires Design Team
> http://www.sodesires.com
> ~~
>  
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> * 
> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] Style Switcher and IE

[P.H.Lauke]

Could it be that your Temporary Internet Files cache is full ?
Try emptying it...maybe it's not writing out the cookie
properly because IE has exceeded its allowed cache limit...
(and then forgets to clear it, or at least warn the user)

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk


> -Original Message-
> From: Jaime Wong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 08 March 2004 15:08
> To: WSG - CSS List
> Subject: [WSG] Style Switcher and IE
> 
> 
> 
> Hi I am not sure if it is appropriate to seek help for some javascript
> issues with styleswitcher here but I hope someone will be able to help
> because I have no idea what went wrong all of a sudden.
>  
> I am using the style switcher at http://www.alistapart
> com/articles/alternate/ on my site and all of a sudden IE 
> seems to have a
> problem with it (used to work and no changes has been done 
> with it). It will
> not remember the selected style and upon every reload, it 
> will switch back
> to the default style.
>  
> But when working with dreamweaver, and by using the preview 
> option, the
> style registers in IE. It only doesn't work when the site goes live.
>  
> All other browsers are working fine.
>  
> This is what I have in 
>  
> 
>  simple" href="../scripts/css/style_simple/simpleStyle.css" />
>  
> and in the body..
>  
>  onclick="setActiveStyleSheet('
> , 1);return false;" onmouseover="MM_swapImage('styles','','.
> /images/global/styles/tt_select.gif',1)" 
> onmouseout="MM_swapImgRestore()
> > alt="Switch to Glass
> Style" width="22" height="21" />
>  
> The script for switcher from above:
> onclick="setActiveStyleSheet('', 1);return false;"
>  
>  onclick="setActiveStyleSheet(
> simple', 1);return false;" onmouseover="MM_swapImage('styles','','.
> /images/global/styles/tt_select.gif',1)" 
> onmouseout="MM_swapImgRestore()
> > alt="Switch to Simple
> Style" width="20" height="21" />
>  
> The script for switcher from above:
> onclick="setActiveStyleSheet('simple', 1);return false;"
>  
>  
> The javascript is what I downloaded from http://www.alistapart
> com/articles/alternate/
> 
> 
> 
>  
> With Regards
> Jaime Wong
> ~~
> SODesires Design Team
> http://www.sodesires.com
> ~~
>  
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> * 
> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] IE7 fixes CSS glitches for IE

[P.H.Lauke]

Then again, as Microsoft will be shoving Longhorn down everybody's throat
through OEM sales, having it pre-installed on all new PCs, and probably
bombard the general populace with a full-spectrum advertising/conversion
campaign (not to mention the myriad of applications that, all of a sudden,
will be "Longhorn only" - as is currently the case for XP with most of the
audio/video editing software that in the past I've been using on my humble
Win2k box), it may still have a positive impact.
Far more worrying is the fact that - I suspect - the main focus of Longhorn
will shift towards XAML/Avalon/Sparkle, and guess which browser/OS will be
the only one supporting that for a while ?

Just thoughts,

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: Neerav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 08 March 2004 09:55
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] IE7 fixes CSS glitches for IE
> 
> 
> 
> A "small" glitch however is that IE7 will not be able as a standalone 
> browser, only integrated in the next release of windows (longhorn?)
> 
> so while it sounds nice ... its a furphy in its real life effects
> 
> -- 
> Neerav Bhatt
> http://www.bhatt.id.au
> 
> Geoff Bowers wrote:
> > 
> > Saw this little gem on Sean Corfields blog just now.. looks 
> like a very 
> > interesting project.  I especially like how its been implemented.
> > 
> > http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/
> > "IE7 invokes a DHTML behavior to load and parse all style 
> sheets into a 
> > form that Explorer can understand. You can then use most 
> CSS2 selectors 
> > without having to resort to CSS hacks."
> > 
> > -- geoff
> > http://www.daemon.com.au/
> > 
> > *
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