Re: [WSG] Browser Check with Firefox 1.5

2007-04-17 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell

Hi Samuel

Just for interest, I checked it in both Firefox and Opera  
9.01 on Mac OS X 10.4.9.

In both cases, the page background is a red tile pattern with orange  
highlights. The text area appears as a very very pale red (or deep  
pink) surrounding a white background for the form.

I hope that this is of some help.

Your html code doesn't validate, which probably doesn't help. 

Some of your style sheets don't validate, either. 
Although I suspect that the latter is tailored to some specific  
condition, like a specific browser, maybe.

Jonathan O'Donnell
+61 4 2575 5829

On 17/04/2007, at 4:06 PM, Samuel Richardson wrote:

Hi all,

I’ve noticed a problem on our website when rendering pages with  
Firefox 1.5 (and possibly lower).

If you have Firefox 1.5 installed could you please take a look at  
the following page:

And let me know if the main content area renders with a black  

Has anybody encountered this rendering bug before? I think it might  
be related to the size of the background image being used in that  
content field. It’s only occurring when using Firefox 1.5 (and  
possibly lower), Firefox 2.0 renders that pages fine.


Samuel Richardson

0405 472 748 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [WSG] Layout Check Please (Linux / Mac)

2007-04-16 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell

Hi Joseph

I have had a look at your site through my Mac OS X 10.4.9 browsers.
+   Opera 9.01 = looks fine.
+   Safari 2.0.4 = looks fine.
+   Firefox = looks fine.
+	Internet Explorer 5.2.3 = Not good: Header imagery doesn't appear,  
including top navigation and white slogan on blue text. List text  
(Rooms and Rates, etc) runs off the right hand side of the page.
Then again, IE 5.2 on the Mac is very old and has always been very  

I note that while your HTML validates, your CSS doesn't validate.
This link might give you direct access to the results. 

If not, try using a CSS validator like this one.

Nice use of the vCard div, by the way.  Your HTML code looks very clean.
Jonathan O'Donnell
+61 4 2575 5829

On 17/04/2007, at 6:28 AM, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

Greetings all,

I was hoping some of you fine Linux / Mac users could test this  
layout to make sure no blowups happen.  Everything SHOULD be fine,  
but you never know.

Thanks a bunch!

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076

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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-10 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell

Hi Tim

The Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities (WANAU) is  
a volunteer group with no formal structure (that I know of), much  
like Web Standards Group.  It seeks to promote Web accessibility  
within Australian universities.

They run a mailing list [1], forums at universities [2] and generally  
have a 'birds of a feather' meeting at OZeWAI [3] and possibly other  
conferences, like AusWeb.
WANAU is not from RMIT, although WANAU's 2007 Victorian forum was  
held at RMIT. [4] I helped organise it and I chaired it.  It was well  
attended, with almost 100 people attending from most (if not all)  
Victorian universities.  People seemed to like it.

WANAU do not sell training courses.  They don't sell anything, actually.

Dey Alexander is an independent consultant. [5]  She used to work for  
Monash University.  She probably has worked with Vision Australia in  
the past. She has completed one review of Australian university Web  
sites, similar to what you describe [6], and is currently undertaking  
a second, to update the findings of the first review.  The results  
will be presented this year at AusWeb. [7]

[1] WANAU mailing list:
[2] WANAU forums:
[3] OZeWAI conference:
[4]	2007 Victorian WANAU forum: 

[5] Dey Alexander Consulting:
[6]	Alexander Dey, 30 Jan 2004, How Accessible Are Australian  
University Web Sites?, Ariadne 38, 

[7] AusWeb:

Jonathan O'Donnell
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On 11/04/2007, at 11:38 AM, Tim wrote:

On 11/04/2007, at 9:41 AM, Susie Gardner-Brown wrote:

Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities ...

 They are proposing running their annual forum on Accessibility in  
online teaching at UQ where I work, and we’ve been asked to  
help ... :)

 I expect I will be involved anyway, but would be interested in  
any feedback!

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Don't be conned Susie,

Who are this group, what have they done in previous forums since 2004.
Where was it held last year? Who attended last year?

I bet they are selling training courses, seen in links to a  
business case on the W3C site..
Funny that they are from RMIT yet there is no action at their own  
University. Multiple page errors. Fix your own Uni pages first.

They do have a few different stylesheets, but the changes between  
them are minor colour changes.
I thought Dey Alexander was working with Vision Australia who to me  
seem to accept low government standards to get training contracts  
from AGIMO.

Following  Maquire v Sydney Olympics, who does any legal advocation  
for the blind apart from myself?
This group may want to sell you training contracts. http://

Bloody hell I work hard on testing Australian sites including  
Universities who should know better, what is WANAU, what have they  
done. With a few dollars funding I could review all Australian  
Universities and have a reference page showing those who fail and  
why, what else do you need, fund me to complete a review of  
University webpages and forget the talkfest.

Australian sites are in a bad way, few Universities know what  
accessibility is.
ANU fails
RMIT fails
Sydney Fail
Swinburne fails

I have done dozens reviews of Australian government websites and  
advocated a legal position to HREOC. what has WANAU done apart from  
make a few webpages?

Yours Faithfully

Tim Anderson
The Editor
Heretic Press

The Editor
Heretic Press

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[WSG] Fwd: [LINK] One Laptop per Child

2005-11-21 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell
I thought that WSG'ers might be interested in this view of the One 
Laptop per Child project.  Liddy Nevile was at the launch last week, 
and will be working on a project in Bangledesh next year, I think.

Begin forwarded message:

From: Liddy Nevile
Date: 21 November 2005 10:56:13 PM
Cc: Subject: Re: [LINK] One Laptop per Child

One important way of thinking about the 'green machine' is as a book. 
They will be able to provide kids with lots of stuff to read and it is 
expected that in some cases that will be all they will need to do to 
be very useful in places where textbooks are not available.

It might also please some Linkers to know that by avoiding greedy 
operating systems,  the number of winds per hour is being reduced. 
There is also a new approach to screens. I think that a lot of people 
will benefit from just these two developments.

I personally look forward to children, in Australia and elsewhere, 
getting computers that are not business machines but rather designed 
for kids ... and adults can explore the kind of software likely to be 
available by trying Squeak (, a modern 
'SmallTalk' language developed by Alan Kay and his colleagues and  and 
Scratch (, 
a new language being developed by Mitchel Resnick and his colleagues 
building on Squeak.


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Re: [WSG] $100 laptop WAS: why liquid layout is important.

2005-11-20 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell

On 21/11/2005, at 2:23 PM, Christian Montoya wrote:

On 11/20/05, Herrod, Lisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well the idea of the $100 laptop is to 'work with developing nations' 

provide low cost access to knowledge via the Internet.

What I'm doing is putting this out to our community to see who is 
in being involved in a project like this. Naturally we would need to 
exactly what it means, but in a nutshell, finding a way in which we 

contribute and give something back.

We all work on the web and reap the benefits of it daily and I have 
first hand (in Indonesia) the impact knowledge and access to the web 

have. It's incredibly empowering.

Happy to continue this discussion but not sure if this is the right 

Is this OT?

I think it is on topic. I'm interested in hearing ideas other WSG
members have for making something like this work. My concern for MIT's
project is whether or not internet access will be managed by the
governments in some of these countries.

At the moment, the computers form a 'mesh' network (wireless, I think) 
with one another.  I don't know if this includes any other 
network-aware objects that are around.

The project is looking at ways to hook them into the Internet.  It's 
difficult, because some of these places don't have reliable power or 
telecommunications links.

Google is part of it, and
Google has already followed China's wishes to censor content on
searches in China. How valuable is the internet to users in China,
compared to users in countries where access is unrestricted? Will
these children in the countries MIT is targeting be using a managed,
censored network, or will they be able to learn about things their
government might not want them to know about?


I will leave the question of no Internet access vs. controlled Internet 
access to others, preferably off this list.  Perhaps the Link mailing 
list (or similar) might be a better place to discuss that.

Jonathan O'Donnell
+61 4 2575 5829

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Re: [WSG] RapidWeaver?

2005-11-20 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell

Hi Richard

Thanks for your phone call.

The Rapid Weaver software is at:
It costs $40- (presumably US$).  I didn't realise that, but it looks 
like the download is a demo version.  If we like it, we can pay for it 
in January, maybe.

I am downloading it, and will play with it early next year.

I am very excited about the Freedom of Information project.

My contact details are below:
Jonathan O'Donnell
+61 4 2575 5829

On 04/11/2005, at 1:37 PM, Christian Montoya wrote:

Has anyone used this before:

I stumbled across it today (was compulsively checking source of some
site and found a comment that said produced by RapidWeaver... and
the markup was relatively clean, so I googled it), seems... not too
bad for a WYSIWYGish app, in terms of code and whatever. Although it
looks like it's just meant to publish stuff, rather than create
styles. Still, in that role it could potentially be useful in lieu of
a standards-compliant web-based WYSIWYG editor for clients.

Obviously the platform (Mac OS X) restricts application somewhat. :-(

I'm interested to hear if anyone's encountered/had any dealings with 
it, though.

The site showcase ( ) is a
pretty good indicator... most of the sites have 0 errors. It throws in
a few extra br's and span's, and some sites lack a doctype, but
otherwise it's clean. Looks like a neat tool.

C Montoya ... ...
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Re: [WSG] $100 laptop WAS: why liquid layout is important.

2005-11-20 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell

On 21/11/2005, at 2:40 PM, Herrod, Lisa wrote:


I worked in indonesia for a short time teaching basic internet skills 
to a

very poor school for deaf children. if they can pick up HTML, (which,
remember is in english) taught by someone with basic indonesian and 
Indo sign language, imagine what they can do with propper support! our 

issue was that of the 6 or 7 computers they had, each had completely
different o/s, browser, software etc. they could not afford to access 

internet or visit an internet cafe (though we did find the funds for 2
visits). They picked it up so quickly and in a couple of weeks were 
small web sites. the kids were aged between 11 and 18. They were 
amazed at what they were doing. Education and knowledge is very 
particularly for people considered 'disabled' and in a third world 

In the mid-nineties, Charles McCathieNevile did some great stuff with 
the 'CD with a hole' concept.

The idea was to put tutorials, free software and examples onto a CD.  
The CD was accompanied by a floppy per person.  People used the CDs to 
build stand alone Web pages, which were then saved to their floppy.

At semi-regular gatherings, the contents of the floppys could be 
uploaded to a Web server.  The contents of the server were then burnt 
to a new version of the CD, which each person took away with them.

This allowed people in remote aboriginal communities (for example) to 
build Web sites, even though they had little or no access to the 
regular Web.

People can do a great deal with very little access.

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Re: [WSG] Safari not loading website

2005-11-16 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell

Hello Lakshmi

I am using Mac OS X 10.3.9, so I thought that I would document the  
problem.  I'm not a JavaScript/EcmaScript bunny, so I'm afraid I can't  
do more than that.  Hopefully someone else on the list can point you to  
a fix.

The problem is real.   When you use  
javascript:OpenAttachmentWithFullPath, Safari tries to point to  
localhost, rather than the base path.

As a test page, I used: 

I tried to download something that uses javascript:OpenAttachment:

And something that uses javascript:OpenAttachmentWithFullPath:

First, I check that the page was valid:

It wasn't.  You can see the results at: 

Then I tried to replicate the problem with various browsers:
Firefox 1.0.6: OK
Safari 1.3.1: OK
Opera 8.5: OK
Internet Explorer 5.2.3: OK

Firefox 1.0.6: OK
Safari 1.3.1: Fail!
Opera 8.5: OK
Internet Explorer 5.2.3: OK

Sure enough, when I tried to download using  
javascript:OpenAttachmentWithFullPath on Safari 1.3.1, I received the  
error message:
Safari can’t open the page  
anscript_fees_RSB2005.doc/$file/Transcript_fees_RSB2005.doc” because it  
could not connect to the server “localhost”.

Jonathan O'Donnell
+61 4 2575 5829

On 17/11/2005, at 10:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi! All

I am the web production officer at Attorny General's . I have received  
feedback from Mac users using Safari to browse are unable to download  
attachments. The errors message that they get is  Safari can't find  
the server, can't find the Domain name?.  We are using relative links  
in Javascript to open the attachments.

Could please anyone shed light on what might be causing this. Our  
website is built on Lotus Notes.

Lakshmi Satyanarayana
 Web Production Officer
 Web Services
 Information Technology Services
 Attorney General's Department

 Tel:   +612 9228 8417
 Mo:     0403111907
 Fax:   +612 9228 8269
 Ex:      88417
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[WSG] Wild metadata

2005-11-14 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell
 Hawking (Panoptic, CSIRO), 30 May 2005, Poor search  
facilities cost money - is metadata the answer? DC-ANZ 2005, (accessed 13  
November 2005).

[2]	David Hawking and Justin Zobel, (Panoptic, CSIRO), Forthcoming,  
Does Topic Metadata Help with Web Search?, Journal of the American  
Society for Information Science and Technology (JASIST).

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Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-13 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell

On 14/11/2005, at 11:31 AM, Bert Doorn wrote:

Is it really necessary for accessibility to include default 
place-holding characters in edit boxes and text areas per WCAG 1.0 
Checkpoint 10.4?  Is that an obsolete guideline?

Have we reached (or largely reached) the until user agents stage 
yet?  What implications is ignoring this guideline likely to have 
(other than not getting tick marks from various automated tools), 
given I use properly coded labels and (where needed) fieldsets for the 
It seems crazy to repeat the label text (or slightly amended info) in 
the input for people to overwrite (and some will perhaps leave it in 

Leaving it there can be a problem.  I have seen a demonstration (at a 
Melbourne WSG meeting, no less) where the agent placed the cursor at 
the end of the place-holding text without reading it.  There is a real 
danger that the user will enter text without knowing that the 
place-holding text is there.

10.4 has been deprecated in the WCAG 2.0 Working Draft, if that helps 
But it's only draft, remember.
Jonathan O'Donnell
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-13 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell

On 14/11/2005, at 1:02 PM, Bert Doorn wrote:

I might settle on adding value=  (space) - shouldn't be hard to 
change my scripts to strip leading spaces when checking if a field has 
been completed.


Hi Bert

I would have thought that you would want to make your scripts check for 
leading _and trailing_ spaces.  Mouse users will often click into the 
start of a field.  When they enter text, they will end up with a 
trailing space.


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Re: [WSG] Naked metadata - RDF in HTML

2005-11-08 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell
Hi Ian, Liddy, Charles, Peter, Misha, Alan, Patrick, Andy, Geoff, 
DC-General and WSG

Thank you for all your help and comments.  In particular, thank you, 
Ian, for RDF in HTML.

Last week, I wrote to the DC-General and the Web Standards Group 
mailing lists. I was lamenting the fact that Dublin Core metadata 
needed to be embedded in the head of the Web page, and that people 
often didn't update the metadata when they updated the Web page.  I 
proposed a half-baked idea, and asked for comments.

Everyone was extremely helpful, and gave me really valuable feedback.  
I learnt a lot.

** RDF in HTML **

In particular, I learnt that RDF in HTML [1] will do exactly what I 
want.  It provides a valid way to embed Dublin Core (or other) metadata 
in the Web page.  I can use class attributes, so it is CSS-friendly. It 
can be harvested using a Gleaning Resource Descriptions from Dialects 
of Languages [2] (GRDDL)-aware harvester.  And Ian has built a 
GRDDL-aware harvester,  Embedded RDF Extractor, [3] that I can use to 
test my pages.

Now, I have built a page, and it works!
If anyone would like to have a look at it, I would appreciate feedback. 
 Have I got it right?  Are there things that I could be doing better?

** XHTML2 **

And Misha pointed out that XHTML2 [4] deals with this very nicely.
In XHTML2, meta elements can appear in the body of the document, not 
just the head and any element can link to them.

So, once again, thanks everybody.  The Internet continues to blow my 

** References **

[1]  RDF in HTML:
[2] Gleaning Resource Descriptions from Dialects of Languages (GRDDL):

[3] Embedded RDF Extractor:
[4] eXtensible HyperText Markup Language 2 (XHTML2):

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[WSG] Naked metadata

2005-11-05 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell

Hi WSG'ers

After seeing Sarah's post about CSS for titles, I thought that people 
might be interested in this idea.  It's a half baked idea. If you have 
any comments or suggestions, I would love to hear them.

Apologies for those who have already seen this on the DC-General list.

** The problem **
People updating Web pages often doesn't update the metadata in the 

** The solution **
Tag appropriate Web data with id attributes. Point to the data from the 
appropriate metadata field in the header.

** Example **
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN;
html xmlns=;
titleNaked Metadata/title
meta name=DC.title content=#title /
meta name=DC.creator content=#creator /
meta name=DC.creator content=#rights /
h1 id=titleNaked Metadata/h1
h2 id=creatorJonathan O'Donnell/h2
	p id=rights 
copy; Jonathan O'Donnell 23 October 2005/p


** Background **

At DC-ANZ 2005, Eve Young and Baden Hughes made the point that people 
updating Web pages often don't update the metadata. One of of the 
problems that they talked about was that metadata in the header is 
essentially invisible to people editing the page (when, for example, 
using some wysiwyg editors).

In general, data (including metadata) should be stored in one place 
only. This prevents drift: if it is only stored in one place, it can 
only be updated in that place.

Often, the information that we want to store as metadata already 
appears in the Web page.  Examples include the title, description 
(especially as opening paragraph) and the author's name.  In footers, 
we often find rights information, the URL, and date information.

If this information already exists in the data, and we replicate it in 
the metadata, there is the danger of drift. Perhaps pointing to the 
data from the metadata fields is a way of preventing drift, and 
ensuring that the metadata is as up-to-date as the data.

** Method **

In html (including xhtml), one way of doing this is to use id 
attributes. Many Web developers use these already to style particular 
aspects of a Web site.  They can also be used as a target anchor for 
hypertext links

For example, if you use this tag:
p id=rightscopy; Jonathan 2005/p
in the page:
Then the URL
will point to that paragraph.

** Advantages **
+   Metadata sits with the data.
+   As data is updated, the metadata continues to be current.

** Disadvantages **
+   id attributes must be unique within a Web page.

Jonathan O'Donnell
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