Re: [WSG] Semantic Calendar
On Aug 17, 2005, at 8:31 PM, T. R. Valentine wrote: On 17/08/05, Scott Swabey (Lafinboy Productions) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does a calendar (single month) qualify as tabular data, are ordered lists a better fit, or should I be looking at another option? IMO, a calendar is always tabular data. I agree that in general, calendars on web pages should be marked up as tables. This affords some backwards compatibility with the CSS- challenged. So I in no way want to argue against Valentine's position, but I do want to discuss a point about it. Tabular data means data that both the row and column add meaning and context to the displayed data. A calendar is not row-sensitive; columns are only columns because that is a convenient shorthand for repeated meta data (days of the week). As I understand it, Mayan calendars (for examples) represented the same thing as circular (cyclical?) data, and not tabular. Case in point: depending on national preference, the calendar weeks may start with Sunday, or end with Sunday. But Sunday, Aug 14, 2005, would move to a different week (a different row, and therefore a different meaning) if you switched from Sunday-first to Sunday-last. In tabular data, you cannot arbitrarily switch rows and not change the meaning, but in a typical calendar Aug 14 would remain the same regardless of the column order. The data structure of a calendar is an ordered list, with repeated meta data (days of week), and sectional groups (months and years). There is no truly appropriate HTML markup for this, since you cannot segment an ol. A current project of mine allows people to select a week by clicking on any day within it. In this case, changing from Sunday-first to Sunday-last *would* change the week the Sunday is related to, and so tabular data it has become. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Semantic Calendar
On Aug 17, 2005, at 8:31 PM, T. R. Valentine wrote: On 17/08/05, Scott Swabey (Lafinboy Productions) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does a calendar (single month) qualify as tabular data, are ordered lists a better fit, or should I be looking at another option? IMO, a calendar is always tabular data. Ahh, tables! Here's my 0.02$ Answer == Calendars should be marked up using tables not lists. Reason == Tables represent tabular data. Tabular data *does not* need a row identifier as data can be legitimately consumed in columnar format. Data in the rows can inherit meaning by the very context they are contained in, i.e. TH, CAPTION and SUMMARY. TH can be used as a row identifier if it is required in order to comprehend the data. CAPTION: March 2005 Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 CAPTION: Staff NameAge Gender P. Smith28 Male S. Bloggs 32 Female The above models provide a perfectly clear tabular format and should be marked up as such. As Ben correctly points out, OL is the correct structure of the *data*, but the *data* isn't complete without identifying headers, giving the *data* a second dimension, hence a tabular format, hence TABLE is the correct structure. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Semantic Calendar
Ben Curtis wrote Tabular data means data that both the row and column add meaning and context to the displayed data. A calendar is not row-sensitive; Ben, and others, thanks for the input on this. Ben, your comments particularly align with my thoughts about the appropriateness of using a table for apparently non-tabular data. After a bit more thought I have decided to present the calendar in a table, which, combined with some additional functionality of the calendar, now seems to be the _right_ way to do it. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Semantic Calendar
G'day all I have been tinkering with a calendar generation script (PHP if relevant), and have developed two versions. One uses a semantically correct table for layout, the other uses ordered lists to hold and layout the day names and month dates. After working on this for a while and thinking about it for wa too long I am faced with the quandary - which of the two versions is _more_ semantically correct? Does a calendar (single month) qualify as tabular data, are ordered lists a better fit, or should I be looking at another option? Any feedback/opinions would be appreciated. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Calendar
Both are equally semantic depending on how it's used. If it's a list of dates, use dates. If it's a table of dates that displays dates against days (Sun, Mon, Tues... Sat), then use a table. If you're always lost about how to display something in the most semantic manner, try viewing it without styles. It it makes sense without styles, you're good to go. -- Kris Khaira http://kriskhaira.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Calendar
Hi, Check out the hcalendar microformat http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar It's based on the widely used iCalender format from the IEEE. Two of the founders of Microformats, Tantek Celik and Eric Meyer are speaking at Web Essentials in Sydney at the end of September. http://we05.com Tantek in particular will be looking a the issues of semantics in detail john On 18/08/2005, at 1:20 PM, Scott Swabey ((Lafinboy Productions)) wrote: G'day all I have been tinkering with a calendar generation script (PHP if relevant), and have developed two versions. One uses a semantically correct table for layout, the other uses ordered lists to hold and layout the day names and month dates. After working on this for a while and thinking about it for wa too long I am faced with the quandary - which of the two versions is _more_ semantically correct? Does a calendar (single month) qualify as tabular data, are ordered lists a better fit, or should I be looking at another option? Any feedback/opinions would be appreciated. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
