Re: [WSG] designing for handheld
Tee asked > So which emulators (simulators) are correct? Which one of the 30+ mobile web browsers are you trying to emulate? There are many different browsers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbrowser#Popular_mobile_browsers and even different versions of the same browser that render pages differently. The only one I would give a good chance of emulating on a desktop almost perfectly every time is Opera Mini, because how it works. You request a page, a proxy retrieves that page and then serves you some of the content it believes will display correctly on your java midlet opera mini. As the proxy server does all the work and the java midlet will run on most phones, PCs and even embedded in webpages unchanged. You should always get the same results. Opera Mobile is rumoured to be about a version behind Opera Desktop. So in theory the current Opera mobile renders like Opera 8 or 8.5? Of course some things will be a little different, I have done minimal testing and Opera Mobile and Opera do render similar. Which version of Safari matches which of the 4 major releases of the S60 browser? Don't know have not been able to test, I don't own a Nokia. Internet Explorer Mobile bears about as much resemblance to IE/Win as IE/Mac does to IE/Win, they are quite different creatures. IEM I am using uses different subset of XHTML and CSS, XHTML-MP and WCSS that the IE/Win. IEM also has a few different versions, I upgraded my Windows Mobile 5 a few months back and IEM went from unusable to as usable as Opera Mobile for me. Personally other than Opera Mini, I don't think you have a hope of testing in an emulator and getting the right result. The bad news is you will need a heap of mobile devices, with a variety of different versions of the same software to be able to test a website to render is the most common browsers. Or build a very simple mobile version of the site. Nick -- Nick Cowie http://nickcowie.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] designing for handheld
As John said, phone browsers vary as much (actually, more) than their desktop counterparts. much more actually ... On the phone, there are a few different environments I'd test in: 1. Safari (WebKit is the primary browser on Nokia S60 devices, as well as the iPhone of course. There are some compatibility differences, but it's the best way to check, short of actually using the device) 2. Opera Mini (has quite significant market penetration on mobile devices. I believe I read somewhere that it was the number 1 browser, but that may not be true) 3. IE on a Windows Mobile device. I have no idea how to test this other than on the device itself. I'm not aware of how it differs with IE/Win. Those are the high-end of mobile browsers ... Currently only a small proportion of phone browsers in actual use out there would be using those. What about "UP-Browser", etc? ... and those rather limited and very diverse browsers that come with phones ... phone users are more likely to be using the phone's built-in browser than something they have to install themselves such as Opera Mini. If the only mobile devices you are seeing in your logs are the high-end ones you mentioned perhaps it is because it is not really a truly mobile-friendly site! The way to go for phones made in the last few years is mobile xhtml - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XHTML_Mobile_Profile - if you want to support older phones you will need a wml version as well. (you will need both wml and xhtml versions because some of the newer phones no longer support wml and many old phones ONLY support wml - yes its a standards nightmare!) Remember that phone users are usually using very small screens - keep navigation simple - and try to avoid creating situations where the user has to spend a lot of time scrolling to get to what they want! also - try to break long pages up into small ones (some older phones will not handle long pages due to memory restrictions) Avoid using flash or javascript - not many phones in current use support those! some links that may be useful: http://www.openmobilealliance.org/ http://developer.openwave.com/ http://www.forum.nokia.com/ http://wurfl.sourceforge.net/ http://www.nttdocomo.co.jp/english/p_s/imode/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Markup_Language *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] designing for handheld
So which emulators (simulators) are correct? As John said, phone browsers vary as much (actually, more) than their desktop counterparts. On the phone, there are a few different environments I'd test in: 1. Safari (WebKit is the primary browser on Nokia S60 devices, as well as the iPhone of course. There are some compatibility differences, but it's the best way to check, short of actually using the device) 2. Opera Mini (has quite significant market penetration on mobile devices. I believe I read somewhere that it was the number 1 browser, but that may not be true) 3. IE on a Windows Mobile device. I have no idea how to test this other than on the device itself. I'm not aware of how it differs with IE/Win. The other thing that's important to check is that you're developing a handheld stylesheet, but not relying on it. MobileSafari on the iPhone, for instance, uses screen stylesheets and ignores the handheld one entirely. I believe Opera Mini has that as a capability, too. Hope that helps, Kit *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] designing for handheld
So which emulators (simulators) are correct? They probably all are but just as Opera renders differently from IE6 on a desktop, Opera Mini (or Mobile) renders differently from other mobile browsers. In fact, there's more difference among mobile browsers than there is desktop browsers and most of them don't recognise handheld stylesheets. -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] designing for handheld
On Aug 5, 2007, at 12:45 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote: Hi, You could try the cellphone emulator at: http://mtld.mobi/emulator.php for an idea on rendition on cellphones. Stuart, Do you know how accurate the renditionis for this emulator? And compare with Opera Mini and other simulators. I tested couple of sites I did on Opera mini and the DM device center last night, the results are quite acculate and with some 5% differences between Opera mini and the device center, mainly the paddings left/right issue. I am actually suprised and pleased to know over 70% of the sites I did so far, already render well (provided what I saw are truly what I saw) in handheld devices even without a different stylesheet for mobile. Even with the 3 column layout in Pixel, it shows the first column, scroll down to the bottom of first column, there following the second column, then the third. But with this mobi emulator, what I see is, the site shrinks porpotionally, like the IE 7 and Opera zoom feature does. I didn't download the iphony yesterday, but decided to try it when writing this message, and see that my sites are all shrink porportionally like the mobi emulator does (mini-my-site version:) ), so does the thiess kentz site John showed (I see he has a handheld stylesheet in the header). So which emulators (simulators) are correct? tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] designing for handheld
Hi, You could try the cellphone emulator at: http://mtld.mobi/emulator.php for an idea on rendition on cellphones. On Sun, August 5, 2007 4:01 am, Tee G. Peng wrote: > > > I never see a website in a handheld device (my cellphone allows me to > brows the internet but I am unwilling to test it as I don't know how > much it will cost when the bill arrives ... > > tee > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > -- Stuart Foulstone. http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk BigEasy Web Design 69 Flockton Court Rockingham Street Sheffield S1 4EB Tel. 07751 413451 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] designing for handheld
The obvious different is that there are two "Thiess Kents" logo, one big, one small, the small one overlapping the "Engineers & Constructors" Actually, that was an oversight on my part. It's fixed now. Thanks! You can also get an idea of what your site will looked like on handhelds using Opera desktop: just hit Shift + F11 to go into small screen rendering mode. -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] designing for handheld
Hi Tee, as well as Opera Mini 3.n, it is probably worth trying the Opera Mini 4 beta http://www.operamini.com/beta/ - I use both to test blog templates, as 4 beta renders closer to a desktop browser (desktop browser with magnifier, anyhow). Just on the mobile browsing experience - Ryan Healy of http://employeeevolution.com/ uses the WP Mobile Edition plugin that renders a very navigable site when viewed from small format browsers (but doh! forgets to include an RSS link out of the box). My guess is that portable/handheld browsing is going to become more of an issue rather than less as time goes by - anyone have any thoughts around this? Cheers, Andrew Andrew Boyd Consultant SMS Management & Technology M 0413 048 542 T +61 2 6279 7100 F +61 2 6279 7101 [EMAIL PROTECTED] About SMS: Ground Floor, 8 Brindabella Circuit, CANBERRA AIRPORT ACT 2609 www.smsmt.com SMS Management & Technology (SMS) [ASX:SMX] is Australia's largest, publicly listed Management Services company. We solve complex problems and transform business through Consulting, People and Technology From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 5 August 2007 1:01 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] designing for handheld On Aug 4, 2007, at 6:42 PM, John Faulds wrote: > The only site I've done with a handheld stylesheet is: http:// > www.thiesskentz.com.au/ > > As far as testing goes, not sure how reliable DW's previews would > be considering how bad their design view is. > > Other testing options include: > > http://www.operamini.com/demo/ > http://www.operamini.com/beta/simulator/ > http://developer.openwave.com/dvl/tools_and_sdk/phone_simulator/ > http://www.marketcircle.com/iphoney/ (Mac only) > > Hi John, thank you so much for the response. I ran the site in Opera Mini and a few from DW Device Center, it renders quite closely. The obvious different is that there are two "Thiess Kents" logo, one big, one small, the small one overlapping the "Engineers & Constructors" Opera Mini puts the horizontal menu in a tree menu with a "+ (expand)" icon, is this how you set the mobile stylesheet renders it? Padding left are gone for paragrahy and heading elements in the Device center (just like my pixel perfect three cols layout). I never see a website in a handheld device (my cellphone allows me to brows the internet but I am unwilling to test it as I don't know how much it will cost when the bill arrives ), therefor willing to give a benefit of doubt for the Adobe DM Device Center. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you received this message in error or are not the intended recipient, you should destroy the e-mail message and any attachments or copies, and you are prohibited from retaining, distributing, disclosing or using any information contained herein. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The Company accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. Thank you for your cooperation. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] designing for handheld
On Aug 4, 2007, at 6:42 PM, John Faulds wrote: The only site I've done with a handheld stylesheet is: http:// www.thiesskentz.com.au/ As far as testing goes, not sure how reliable DW's previews would be considering how bad their design view is. Other testing options include: http://www.operamini.com/demo/ http://www.operamini.com/beta/simulator/ http://developer.openwave.com/dvl/tools_and_sdk/phone_simulator/ http://www.marketcircle.com/iphoney/ (Mac only) Hi John, thank you so much for the response. I ran the site in Opera Mini and a few from DW Device Center, it renders quite closely. The obvious different is that there are two "Thiess Kents" logo, one big, one small, the small one overlapping the "Engineers & Constructors" Opera Mini puts the horizontal menu in a tree menu with a "+ (expand)" icon, is this how you set the mobile stylesheet renders it? Padding left are gone for paragrahy and heading elements in the Device center (just like my pixel perfect three cols layout). I never see a website in a handheld device (my cellphone allows me to brows the internet but I am unwilling to test it as I don't know how much it will cost when the bill arrives ), therefor willing to give a benefit of doubt for the Adobe DM Device Center. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] designing for handheld
The only site I've done with a handheld stylesheet is: http://www.thiesskentz.com.au/ As far as testing goes, not sure how reliable DW's previews would be considering how bad their design view is. Other testing options include: http://www.operamini.com/demo/ http://www.operamini.com/beta/simulator/ http://developer.openwave.com/dvl/tools_and_sdk/phone_simulator/ http://www.marketcircle.com/iphoney/ (Mac only) On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 11:18:55 +1000, Tee G. Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi, a project I'd been working, client asks if I can port the layout for handheld devices. Current layout is pixel width with every pixel carefully culculaated in different sections/columns, so there is no way I can simply adapt the style sheet. At this stage, it's simply an inquiry from client whether I am competent to do the stylesheet for handheld devices. I am very keen on getting my hand dirty even it means sacrify a candle light dinner at a romantic soothing restaurant on Sunday night. I have never done layout specifically for handheld devices, think this is a great opportunity, but I don't know how much complication (apart from learning curve) it involves. The articles and books involving with buildibg accessibily websites that I read all these years, some of them touched the handheld devices but no much, and I don't think I remember all I have read. First and core question: structure wise, is it just a matter to making the layout liquid? I happened to download the Adobe Dreamweaver CS3 trial version last week, and see that it has 'preview in device center' that covers many brand of handhelds, with many different models and display sizes. The layout (3 columns) I mentioned here doesn't break, it displays first column, second column and the third vertically. It appears that layout intergrity doesn't suffer except herhaps differnt margins/paddings needed. Does this means I have the basic covered? If you have done sites for handheld devices, could you be so kind post it here so that I can take a look and perhaps study your style sheet. Recommendation on building accessible sites for handheld devices also welcome. Thank you! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] designing for handheld
Hi, a project I'd been working, client asks if I can port the layout for handheld devices. Current layout is pixel width with every pixel carefully culculaated in different sections/columns, so there is no way I can simply adapt the style sheet. At this stage, it's simply an inquiry from client whether I am competent to do the stylesheet for handheld devices. I am very keen on getting my hand dirty even it means sacrify a candle light dinner at a romantic soothing restaurant on Sunday night. I have never done layout specifically for handheld devices, think this is a great opportunity, but I don't know how much complication (apart from learning curve) it involves. The articles and books involving with buildibg accessibily websites that I read all these years, some of them touched the handheld devices but no much, and I don't think I remember all I have read. First and core question: structure wise, is it just a matter to making the layout liquid? I happened to download the Adobe Dreamweaver CS3 trial version last week, and see that it has 'preview in device center' that covers many brand of handhelds, with many different models and display sizes. The layout (3 columns) I mentioned here doesn't break, it displays first column, second column and the third vertically. It appears that layout intergrity doesn't suffer except herhaps differnt margins/paddings needed. Does this means I have the basic covered? If you have done sites for handheld devices, could you be so kind post it here so that I can take a look and perhaps study your style sheet. Recommendation on building accessible sites for handheld devices also welcome. Thank you! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
