RE: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Jens-Uwe Korff]

> I don't see the point of the null alt strings.

Consider e.g. sponsor images. You don't want to "pollute" your SEOed
page with sponsor keywords, nor is it necessary from an accessibility
point of view. 

Cheers,
 
Jens 

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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Darren West]

ahhh hahaha

thats brilliant!!

Tom said:

> How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference??

 are you writing a book?


2008/5/28 Tom Livingston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Andrew Maben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On May 27, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Andrew Freedman wrote:
>>
>> kate provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:21 AM:
>>
>> The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called the
>> attribute tag.
>> Kate
>>
>> Patrick H. Lauke also provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:33
>> AM:
>>
>> or...the alt attribute, if you want to correct people...
>>
>> That's all well and good and I for one thank you for clarifying that but how
>> does that answer Tom's query?
>> Andrew.
>>
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>> Really! Is there anyone on this list who doesn't understand the distinction
>> between 'tag' and 'attribute'. And does anyone seriously not understand what
>> is meant when reference is made to the 'alt tag', or to HTML 'code' rather
>> than 'markup'?
>> I would certainly agree that in the context of a lecture on the subject
>> these distinctions are important. But in the context of discussions on this
>> list I think this is taking semantic hair-splitting to unwarranted extremes,
>> especially if, as Andrew points out, it doesn't accompany some effort to
>> respond to the question at hand.
>> I move that henceforth it should be acceptable here to use 'tag' as
>> shorthand for 'attribute' and 'code' for 'markup'.
>> Andrew
>
>
> May I also note that in my original question, I never used the term
> 'alt tag' in the first place.
>
> Thanks to those with the helpful replies...
>
>
> --
>
> Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
> ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Tom Livingston]

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Andrew Maben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On May 27, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Andrew Freedman wrote:
>
> kate provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:21 AM:
>
> The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called the
> attribute tag.
> Kate
>
> Patrick H. Lauke also provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:33
> AM:
>
> or...the alt attribute, if you want to correct people...
>
> That's all well and good and I for one thank you for clarifying that but how
> does that answer Tom's query?
> Andrew.
>
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> Really! Is there anyone on this list who doesn't understand the distinction
> between 'tag' and 'attribute'. And does anyone seriously not understand what
> is meant when reference is made to the 'alt tag', or to HTML 'code' rather
> than 'markup'?
> I would certainly agree that in the context of a lecture on the subject
> these distinctions are important. But in the context of discussions on this
> list I think this is taking semantic hair-splitting to unwarranted extremes,
> especially if, as Andrew points out, it doesn't accompany some effort to
> respond to the question at hand.
> I move that henceforth it should be acceptable here to use 'tag' as
> shorthand for 'attribute' and 'code' for 'markup'.
> Andrew


May I also note that in my original question, I never used the term
'alt tag' in the first place.

Thanks to those with the helpful replies...


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Darren West wrote:
There is the argument that you are changing the behaviour of IE, 
however wrong it is, it could be what users expect. I believe Jaws 
ignores empty attributes so all good there ...


I do not think one should meddle with a browser's behavior in minor
cases like "showing alt-text as tool-tip by default". Nothing gets
broken in most cases, and other browsers can show alt-text as tool-tip
too - via an option or add-on.

Only those cases where clearly a wrong and misguiding text pops up on
:hover in IE, should any form of workarounds be applied ... IMO.

Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Rick Lecoat]

On 28 May 2008, at 13:39, Darren West wrote:


Rick,

what email client are you using? how do you get the 'on 28 may darren
wrote ...' and the border-left on the quote?

Cheers

Darren


Drifting OT now, but it's plain old Apple Mail. The border-left, as  
you call it, is just Mail's way of indicating quoted material. If I  
remember correctly from many years bck, Eudora did it the ame ay,  
though personally I prefer the traditional carat (>).


Happy to chat about email clients but probably best to take it off- 
list, lest wrath be incurred.


--
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Darren West]

Rick,

what email client are you using? how do you get the 'on 28 may darren
wrote ...' and the border-left on the quote?

Cheers

Darren


2008/5/28 Rick Lecoat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 28 May 2008, at 12:53, Darren West wrote:
>
>> There is the argument that you are changing the behaviour of IE,
>> however wrong it is, it could be what users expect.
>
> I agree that that's an argument. But the counter-argument, to my mind, is
> that I'm *correcting* the behaviour of IE through markup and css (well, ok,
> not css in this case) to bring it into line with standards compliant
> browsers, which is what we, ad web designers/developers regularly do when
> working around the old IE box model, etc.
>
> I don't want my alt text showing up as tooltips in IE, period, so tweaking
> the markup to correct IE's implementation would appear to be the logical
> choice, especially since it does not break the semantics of the page.
>
> On the other hand, I would be interested to hear of any problems that my
> method creates for screen readers.
>
> --
> Rick Lecoat
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Darren West]

Rick Lecoat wrote:

>I agree that that's an argument. But the counter-argument, to my mind, is that 
>I'm *correcting* the behaviour of IE through markup and css
>(well, ok, not css in this case) to bring it into line with standards 
>compliant browsers, which is what we, ad web designers/developers
>regularly do when working around the old IE box model, etc.

I agree.


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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Rick Lecoat]

On 28 May 2008, at 12:53, Darren West wrote:


There is the argument that you are changing the behaviour of IE,
however wrong it is, it could be what users expect.


I agree that that's an argument. But the counter-argument, to my mind,  
is that I'm *correcting* the behaviour of IE through markup and css  
(well, ok, not css in this case) to bring it into line with standards  
compliant browsers, which is what we, ad web designers/developers  
regularly do when working around the old IE box model, etc.


I don't want my alt text showing up as tooltips in IE, period, so  
tweaking the markup to correct IE's implementation would appear to be  
the logical choice, especially since it does not break the semantics  
of the page.


On the other hand, I would be interested to hear of any problems that  
my method creates for screen readers.


--
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Darren West]

There is the argument that you are changing the behaviour of IE,
however wrong it is, it could be what users expect. I believe Jaws
ignores empty attributes so all good there ...


2008/5/28 Darren West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Seems like a good idea, any implications?
>
>
> 2008/5/28 Rick Lecoat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> On 28 May 2008, at 11:31, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
>>
>>> Me too. IE/win shows title-text on images when such exists, otherwise it
>>> shows the alt-text if such exists.
>>
>> For this reason I quite often use a null-value title attribute alongside
>> filled-in alt text, simply because I don't *want* tooltips in my pages. This
>> means that the alt text is there for those who need/want it, but image-savvy
>> users aren't pestered by yellow text boxes popping up every time they happen
>> to mouse over an image.
>>
>> Is this (eg: > /> something that the panel would condone or condemn?
>>
>> --
>> Rick Lecoat
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Darren West]

Seems like a good idea, any implications?


2008/5/28 Rick Lecoat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 28 May 2008, at 11:31, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
>
>> Me too. IE/win shows title-text on images when such exists, otherwise it
>> shows the alt-text if such exists.
>
> For this reason I quite often use a null-value title attribute alongside
> filled-in alt text, simply because I don't *want* tooltips in my pages. This
> means that the alt text is there for those who need/want it, but image-savvy
> users aren't pestered by yellow text boxes popping up every time they happen
> to mouse over an image.
>
> Is this (eg:  /> something that the panel would condone or condemn?
>
> --
> Rick Lecoat
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Rick Lecoat]

On 28 May 2008, at 11:31, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

Me too. IE/win shows title-text on images when such exists,  
otherwise it

shows the alt-text if such exists.


For this reason I quite often use a null-value title attribute  
alongside filled-in alt text, simply because I don't *want* tooltips  
in my pages. This means that the alt text is there for those who need/ 
want it, but image-savvy users aren't pestered by yellow text boxes  
popping up every time they happen to mouse over an image.


Is this (eg: title="" /> something that the panel would condone or condemn?


--
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Designer wrote:

I'm getting confused now - on MY IE6, the title is displayed on 
hover, not the alt. I was originally testing with my standalone IE6,

 so I checked on my laptop, (with 'real' IE6) and got the same
result!


Me too. IE/win shows title-text on images when such exists, otherwise it
shows the alt-text if such exists.

The most problematic with IE6' behavior comes when title is used on an
anchor containing an image with alt-text - with or without a title. IE
tends to show the image-title/image-alt while (at least most) other
browsers show only the anchor-title, (if I remember my last battle with
that correctly).

Changes in default-behavior announced for IE8, IIRC. Probably more
confusing than ever.

Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Designer]

Ted Drake wrote:

Sorry but on hover,  IE6 will show "this is a dog" and other browsers will
show "oh no it isn't"




-Original Message-
 





Just to confuse the issue, as well as clarify it, this example:



WILL show the message 'this is a dog' when hovered in IE, even when the 
image is present, whereas this one:


title="oh no it isn't!"/>


Will show "oh no it isn't!" on hover in all browsers (well, common ones 
anyway) and only display the alt content when the image is missing. IN 
other words, title takes preference over alt, so far as display on hover 
is concerned.


That means (to me) that it's safer to do both.

Bob

 





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I'm getting confused now - on MY IE6, the title is displayed on hover, 
not the alt. I was originally testing with my standalone IE6, so I 
checked on my laptop, (with 'real' IE6) and got the same result!




Bob



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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[David Dorward]

On 28 May 2008, at 09:50, Michael MD wrote:

I don't see the point of the null alt strings.

A validator is a tool to help you ... its not the be all and end all  
- you need to interpret the results with a bit of common sense.


It seems rather pointless and silly to just try to fool the validator.


Null alt strings are not an attempt to fool the validator (well, they  
don't have to be). They are a way of explicitly saying "There is no  
alternative for this image, it is just decorative or is repeating  
information that appears in the main body of text".



suggestion:
lynx (a free text-only browser) will probably help you a lot more  
for deciding how and where to use alt text ...


This is a good approach.

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/




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RE: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Ted Drake]

Sorry but on hover,  IE6 will show "this is a dog" and other browsers will
show "oh no it isn't"
If your tooltips are really that critical, use the YUI tooltip javascript to
get cross-browser compatibility to display the title attribute. You can also
style them. http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/container/tooltip/

You really shouldn't depend on tooltips for content. Think of them as an
added element on objects whose purpose or action is not immediately obvious.
Here's a better usage to let users know they are leaving your site. It's not
the only way of doing this, but an example. http://paris.org";
title="this will take you to the Paris.org web site">

Ted

-Original Message-
 

Jason Ray wrote:
> The information in the alt attribute will only display when the image is 
> not available - [snip]
> 
> The information in the title attribute will display when the pointer 
> hovers over the object or image. 

Just to confuse the issue, as well as clarify it, this example:



WILL show the message 'this is a dog' when hovered in IE, even when the 
image is present, whereas this one:



Will show "oh no it isn't!" on hover in all browsers (well, common ones 
anyway) and only display the alt content when the image is missing. IN 
other words, title takes preference over alt, so far as display on hover 
is concerned.

That means (to me) that it's safer to do both.

Bob

 




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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Designer]

Jason Ray wrote:
The information in the alt attribute will only display when the image is 
not available - [snip]


The information in the title attribute will display when the pointer 
hovers over the object or image. 


Just to confuse the issue, as well as clarify it, this example:



WILL show the message 'this is a dog' when hovered in IE, even when the 
image is present, whereas this one:


title="oh no it isn't!"/>


Will show "oh no it isn't!" on hover in all browsers (well, common ones 
anyway) and only display the alt content when the image is missing. IN 
other words, title takes preference over alt, so far as display on hover 
is concerned.


That means (to me) that it's safer to do both.

Bob



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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Michael MD]

So what's the general consensus on the use of null or empty alt strings as
per the reasons outlined in the article below?

http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/accessible_alternatives.html



I don't see the point of the null alt strings.

A validator is a tool to help you ... its not the be all and end all - you 
need to interpret the results with a bit of common sense.


It seems rather pointless and silly to just try to fool the validator.


suggestion:
lynx (a free text-only browser) will probably help you a lot more for 
deciding how and where to use alt text ...


can you use the page? ... does what you see make sense?








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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

So what's the general consensus on the use of null or empty alt
strings as per the reasons outlined in the article below?

http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/accessible_alternatives.html


The choice between alt-text or no alt-text depends entirely on whether
an alt-text contributes something meaningful to the document, or not.
This often makes it hard for authors to decide what's best to add or
leave out, since most of us can't/won't read our documents as text-only.
Even if we do, we will still have the images fresh on our minds, which
affects our ability to make wise decisions.

Basically: If nothing gets lost when an image cannot be appreciated
visually, then its alt-text can be left out. If something/anything
important _do_ get lost, one should use the alt-text to restore the
meaning of the document in a "no-images, text-only" situation to as high
a level as possible - without cluttering it.

My own interpretation of the issue is presented in some length here...

...but whether or not that constitutes any level of consensus amongst
authors/designers is a big unknown.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Michael MD]

As i remember alt was short for alternative text, to describe images in 
a website.
It is als yuseful for Search ENgine Optimization as its visible for them 
to also

relate them to content, titles and other components of the page.




text-only browsers display it. ... 


It's text for people who can't see the image.

keep that in mind!




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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[lisa . kerrigan]

So what's the general consensus on the use of null or empty alt strings as
per the reasons outlined in the article below?

http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/accessible_alternatives.html

Lisa Kerrigan
Website Editor
www.business.vic.gov.au
Department Innovation, Industry and Regional Development
Level 31, 121 Exhibition St
Melbourne Vic 3000
Tel:  03 9651-9176
Fax: 03 9651-9988
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



   
 Michael Persson   
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
 Sent by:   To 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wsg@webstandardsgroup.org   
 sgroup.org cc 
   
   Subject 
 28/05/2008 04:53  Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title  
 PMAttribute   
   
   
 Please respond to 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 roup.org  
   
   




As i remember alt was short for alternative text, to describe images in
a website.
It is als yuseful for Search ENgine Optimization as its visible for them
to also
relate them to content, titles and other components of the page.

Michael


kate wrote:
> The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called
> the attribute tag.
> Kate
> - Original Message - From: "Andrew Freedman"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 8:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
>
>
>>
>> Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM:
>>> Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference
>>> between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real
>>> 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight
>>> to me...
>>>
>>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt is
>> alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever
>> reason) and the title is the title of the image.  An example would be
>> alt="Customer Care Logo" title="We Care about you"
>>
>> However as I am always learning I may learn something here today.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
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>
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>
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--
Michael Persson
front-end developer & seo


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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Michael Persson]

As i remember alt was short for alternative text, to describe images in 
a website.
It is als yuseful for Search ENgine Optimization as its visible for them 
to also

relate them to content, titles and other components of the page.

Michael


kate wrote:
The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called 
the attribute tag.

Kate
- Original Message - From: "Andrew Freedman" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute




Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM:

Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference
between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real
'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight
to me...



Hi Tom,

I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt is
alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever
reason) and the title is the title of the image.  An example would be
alt="Customer Care Logo" title="We Care about you"

However as I am always learning I may learn something here today.

Andrew


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front-end developer & seo


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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[dwain]

accessibility validators will let you know if you missed an alt
attribute and will suggest adding titles where there are either
sketchy titles or no titles at all.

dwain

On 5/27/08, Jason Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> hmm... is accessibility not a feature of standards compliance? I'm
> forgetting whether the W3C HTML validator will reject img elements without
> the alt attribute, or if it's just the accessibility validators that do so.
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 10:55 AM, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On 5/27/08, Jason Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > The alt attribute should always be included in order to be standards
> > > compliant,
> >
> > and accessible
> >
> >  the title is optional.
> >
> > some accessibility software i use says it's a good idea to use a title
> > for accessibility reasons.  the software is adesigner by ibm.
> >
> >
> > dwain
> >
> >
> > --
> > dwain alford
> > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
> > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky
> >
> >
> >
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-- 
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Jason Ray]

hmm... is accessibility not a feature of standards compliance? I'm
forgetting whether the W3C HTML validator will reject img elements without
the alt attribute, or if it's just the accessibility validators that do so.

Jason

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 10:55 AM, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 5/27/08, Jason Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The alt attribute should always be included in order to be standards
> > compliant,
>
> and accessible
>
>  the title is optional.
>
> some accessibility software i use says it's a good idea to use a title
> for accessibility reasons.  the software is adesigner by ibm.
>
> dwain
>
>
> --
> dwain alford
> "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
> for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[dwain]

On 5/27/08, Jason Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The alt attribute should always be included in order to be standards
> compliant,

and accessible

 the title is optional.

some accessibility software i use says it's a good idea to use a title
for accessibility reasons.  the software is adesigner by ibm.

dwain


-- 
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Jason Ray]

The information in the alt attribute will only display when the image is not
available - this is particularly useful for people with disabilities using
text readers, or people browsing with images turned off (people on dial-up
connections might do this). The alt attribute is used to describe what the
image is, for example "Picture of a cat chasing a mouse" or "Picture of my
cat Rufus chasing a mouse." Be sufficiently descriptive so that a person
would understand what type of image it is (picture, diagram, timeline, bar
graph, etc.) and what it is showing (describe the persons or objects in the
image, the action being taken, the time period of a timeline, key elements
of a graph, etc.).

The information in the title attribute will display when the pointer hovers
over the object or image. Although the title is also used to describe the
image, keep in mind that the person can see the image or object, so some
information might be superfluous. To use the same example as above, I might
write in the title "Rufus having fun" or "My cat Rufus chasing a mouse." The
information stating that it is a picture is irrelevant because they can see
that - I could also leave out the fact that it's a cat and the fact that
it's chasing a mouse because these are also evident. What is not obvious is
that the cat's name is Rufus.

The alt attribute should always be included in order to be standards
compliant, the title is optional.

Jason

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Susie Gardner-Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Those guys at berea street are good!!
> I always find useful stuff on that site ... :)
>
> - susie
>
>
> On 28/5/08 6:49 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >> Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference
> >> between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real
> >> 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight
> >> to me...
> >>
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > Try this link:
> >
> http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/the_alt_and_title_attributes/
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > ***
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Susie Gardner-Brown]

Those guys at berea street are good!!
I always find useful stuff on that site ... :)

- susie


On 28/5/08 6:49 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
>> Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference
>> between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real
>> 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight
>> to me...
>>   
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 
> Try this link:
> http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/the_alt_and_title_attributes/
> 
> Jeff
> 
> ***
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Andrew Maben]

On May 27, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Andrew Freedman wrote:


kate provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:21 AM:
The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really  
called the attribute tag.

Kate
Patrick H. Lauke also provided the following information on  
28/05/2008 5:33 AM:


or...the alt attribute, if you want to correct people...



That's all well and good and I for one thank you for clarifying  
that but how does that answer Tom's query?


Andrew.


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Really! Is there anyone on this list who doesn't understand the  
distinction between 'tag' and 'attribute'. And does anyone seriously  
not understand what is meant when reference is made to the 'alt tag',  
or to HTML 'code' rather than 'markup'?


I would certainly agree that in the context of a lecture on the  
subject these distinctions are important. But in the context of  
discussions on this list I think this is taking semantic hair- 
splitting to unwarranted extremes, especially if, as Andrew points  
out, it doesn't accompany some effort to respond to the question at  
hand.


I move that henceforth it should be acceptable here to use 'tag' as  
shorthand for 'attribute' and 'code' for 'markup'.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."





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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[jdreid]

> Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference
> between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real
> 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight
> to me...
>   

Hi Tom,

Try this link:
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/the_alt_and_title_attributes/

Jeff

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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Darren West]

I'm not sure exactly what the spec says, go read it, but alt stands
for alternative so the content would be represented alternatively when
say the other content was unavailble. Where as title is meant to
provide additional information related to the content such as a title.

So






2008/5/27 Tom Livingston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hello list,
>
> I know this might seem basic, and I searched, but came up confused...
>
> Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference
> between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real
> 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight
> to me...
>
> Thanks
>
> --
>
> Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
> ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Andrew Freedman]

kate provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:21 AM:
The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called 
the attribute tag.

Kate
Patrick H. Lauke also provided the following information on 28/05/2008 
5:33 AM:


or...the alt attribute, if you want to correct people...



That's all well and good and I for one thank you for clarifying that but 
how does that answer Tom's query?


Andrew.


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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[dwain]

On 5/27/08, Andrew Freedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM:
>
> > Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference
> > between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real
> > 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight
> > to me...
> >
> >
>
>  Hi Tom,
>
>  I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt is
> alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever reason)
> and the title is the title of the image.  An example would be alt="Customer
> Care Logo" title="We Care about you"
>

if the image takes you to another part of the web site or another
place on the web, the title attribute would describe where you are
going.
dwain


-- 
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Jon Tan]

Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM:

Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference
between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real
'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight
to me...



Hi Tom,

This might be useful: "The alt attribute must be specified for the IMG  
and AREA elements. It is optional for the INPUT and APPLET elements."  
It's taken directly from: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-alt


Perhaps worth noting is that "alt" is short for "alternative text".  
Literally, a text equivalent of the element.


On 27 May 2008, at 20:10, Andrew Freedman wrote:
I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt  
is alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever  
reason) and the title is the title of the image.  An example would  
be alt="Customer Care Logo" title="We Care about you"


If I read your right (assuming this hypothetical image actual has the  
text "We Care About You" embedded in it), the alt attribute value  
would be "We Care about you" and there would be no title.


Regarding the title attribute: "The title attribute may annotate any  
number of elements". Taken from: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-title



How about a real
'attributes for dummies' reference??


You can pretty much get all the information you need on any attribute  
from the recommendation: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/attributes.html


Hope that helps,

Jon
-
http://jontangerine.com/



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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Patrick H. Lauke]

kate wrote:
The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called 
the attribute tag.


or...the alt attribute, if you want to correct people...

--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[kate]

The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called the 
attribute tag.

Kate
- Original Message - 
From: "Andrew Freedman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute




Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM:

Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference
between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real
'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight
to me...



Hi Tom,

I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt is
alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever
reason) and the title is the title of the image.  An example would be
alt="Customer Care Logo" title="We Care about you"

However as I am always learning I may learn something here today.

Andrew


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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1468 - Release Date: 5/26/2008 
3:23 PM




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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

[Andrew Freedman]

Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM:

Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference
between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real
'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight
to me...
  


Hi Tom,

I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt is 
alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever 
reason) and the title is the title of the image.  An example would be 
alt="Customer Care Logo" title="We Care about you"


However as I am always learning I may learn something here today.

Andrew


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