Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
Just came across this thread and by coincidence I had been told about the site and tossed off this email to them: --- I thought I would take the time to make you aware of some problems with your website. The site does not communicate to Mac users at all. In Safari 2, the most common MacOSX browser, none of the navigation bars (left or top) appear at all. On IE5, the most common browser for MacOS9 users, navigating to your site brings up a page of code - no site. On Mozilla, a common open source browser recommended as the best browser available in last week's Sydney Morning Herald, the navigation also does not work. These problems would be serious for any website, but for the Australian Communications Authority I would have thought they were disastrous. If you are interested I can make recommendations on how to make your site standards compliant across the entire range of browsers, with simple xhtml and css coding. The Sydney Morning Herald (www.smh.com.au) and The Age (www.theage.com.au) have recently converted their sites to this approach, which is widely recognised as the future of the web. You can cut the size of your pages in half (faster site loads and less server demand) and make the site compatible to ALL users, not just a percentage. My company, Universal Head, has ten years experience in design and specialises in online communications. I would be happy to discuss the possibilities with you further. Best regards Peter Gifford --- On 02/05/2004, at 6:41 PM, Rob Unsworth wrote: An official press release from the Web Standards Group would carry more weight than an individual. Written by someone with better journalistic skills that yours truly. x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerUniversal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
RE: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
Three cheers for Web Standards evangelism! Kudos for making the effort to spread the gospel, but I don't know if I agree with the approach. Fair enough that you'd like to win the job, but the end of the email starts sounding like marketing spam. A political approach might be more effective for getting them to think about it because the last thing any government department wants to think about is more costs and they could be to short-sighted to consider the long-term gains... Just my $0.02... Mt. -Original Message- From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 3:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority Just came across this thread and by coincidence I had been told about the site and tossed off this email to them: --- I thought I would take the time to make you aware of some problems with your website. The site does not communicate to Mac users at all. In Safari 2, the most common MacOSX browser, none of the navigation bars (left or top) appear at all. On IE5, the most common browser for MacOS9 users, navigating to your site brings up a page of code - no site. On Mozilla, a common open source browser recommended as the best browser available in last week's Sydney Morning Herald, the navigation also does not work. These problems would be serious for any website, but for the Australian Communications Authority I would have thought they were disastrous. If you are interested I can make recommendations on how to make your site standards compliant across the entire range of browsers, with simple xhtml and css coding. The Sydney Morning Herald (www.smh.com.au) and The Age (www.theage.com.au) have recently converted their sites to this approach, which is widely recognised as the future of the web. You can cut the size of your pages in half (faster site loads and less server demand) and make the site compatible to ALL users, not just a percentage. My company, Universal Head, has ten years experience in design and specialises in online communications. I would be happy to discuss the possibilities with you further. Best regards Peter Gifford --- On 02/05/2004, at 6:41 PM, Rob Unsworth wrote: An official press release from the Web Standards Group would carry more weight than an individual. Written by someone with better journalistic skills that yours truly. Universal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority (Out of office)
Sorry, I'm away Thurs AM for study. I will read your email when I return. For any urgent Intranet queries or assistance please contact Marion Haworth on 02 9230 8542 or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Many thanks, Leon Wild. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/05/04 18:15 You're right, but in my defense I didn't actually put a huge amount of thought into it because a) I doubt any decision-makers would see it b) since they've just 'redesigned' the site coff I don't think they'd be keen to spend more money c) the job would be a *%^ nightmare ... I wrote it to tell them it doesn't work - the job pitch was just an afterthought! :) Peter On 05/05/2004, at 4:59 PM, Miles Tillinger wrote: Three cheers for Web Standards evangelism! Kudos for making the effort to spread the gospel, but I don't know if I agree with the approach. Fair enough that you'd like to win the job, but the end of the email starts sounding like marketing spam. A political approach might be more effective for getting them to think about it because the last thing any government department wants to think about is more costs and they could be to short-sighted to consider the long-term gains... Just my $0.02... Mt. Universal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
Jeez mate give me a break. Just because every site I've done doesn't get the little W3C gold star doesn't mean I'm not making professional sites. And since I've been making sites since the web started, and designing for years before that, some jobs go back ten years. They were cutting edge enough at the time. Like every job I do, if I was commissioned to do the ACA site, I would make sure that I designed and made, or had made, a site that was appropriate for the client, their audience, and what they were trying to communicate. I might even make it viewable for Mac users, for example ... There's a world of difference between a site for the ACA and a graphic design portfolio. If my showcase site was designed in the same way as an ACA site I would not be communicating to my audience much about my visual skills, especially since I have done and do everything from computer game 3D to corporate ID as well as websites. For example, I also do Flash work. You might just as well complain that the client who wants me to do Flash work could go to my site, find a static xhtml/css site and would therefore conclude I don't practice what I preach. Or the computer game client finds solid flat colours and concludes I don't do 3D. Etcetera. Personally, while I'm on this list and now largely make web standards sites with xhtml and css, I still believe there's a place for Flash, and at the moment, my portfolio is one of those places. As for the nav, when it says 'select an icon', try rolling over an icon. It won't kill you, and you'll only lose a second or two from your day. So ptt! ;) Peter PS On my site now the Latest Work feature is the Jands.com.au site, which is pretty bloody web standard. On 05/05/2004, at 6:50 PM, Andy Budd wrote: I think more of a problem is that your own website and many in your portfolio don't really reflect the qualities that you are trying to sell to this client. If I was a web savvy procurement officer, your email would definitely spark my interest. However going to your site I would see that you don't appear to practice what you preach and would look elsewhere. p.s. Your main nav is pretty user-unfriendly. It's not obvious that these are actually nav items. You're forcing people to guess what they do and to roll over them to reveal where they go. Universal Head wrote: You're right, but in my defense I didn't actually put a huge amount of thought into it because a) I doubt any decision-makers would see it b) since they've just 'redesigned' the site coff> I don't think they'd be keen to spend more money c) the job would be a *%^ nightmare ... I wrote it to tell them it doesn't work - the job pitch was just an afterthought! Miles Tillinger wrote: Three cheers for Web Standards evangelism! Kudos for making the effort to spread the gospel, but I don't know if I agree with the approach. Fair enough that you'd like to win the job, but the end of the email starts sounding like marketing spam. A political approach might be more effective for getting them to think about it because the last thing any government department wants to think about is more costs and they could be to short-sighted to consider the long-term gains... E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerUniversal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
Sorry mate (and the WSG). I was merely giving you my reaction to your post. I was just saying that If I was in the shoes of the person you emailed, my first reaction would be to go and visit your site. On visiting said site I'd think, what a loverly looking flash portfolio with lot's of nice sites. However it doesn't really reflect the type of site I want or the theme of your email. I think with any marketing message your website needs to back up you're main proposition, or you are in risk of loosing the prospect at the last hurdle. Universal Head wrote: Jeez mate give me a break. Just because every site I've done doesn't get the little W3C gold star doesn't mean I'm not making professional sites. And since I've been making sites since the web started, and designing for years before that, some jobs go back ten years. They were cutting edge enough at the time. Like every job I do, if I was commissioned to do the ACA site, I would make sure that I designed and made, or had made, a site that was appropriate for the client, their audience, and what they were trying to communicate. I might even make it viewable for Mac users, for example ... There's a world of difference between a site for the ACA and a graphic design portfolio. If my showcase site was designed in the same way as an ACA site I would not be communicating to my audience much about my visual skills, especially since I have done and do everything from computer game 3D to corporate ID as well as websites. For example, I also do Flash work. You might just as well complain that the client who wants me to do Flash work could go to my site, find a static xhtml/css site and would therefore conclude I don't practice what I preach. Or the computer game client finds solid flat colours and concludes I don't do 3D. Etcetera. Personally, while I'm on this list and now largely make web standards sites with xhtml and css, I still believe there's a place for Flash, and at the moment, my portfolio is one of those places. As for the nav, when it says 'select an icon', try rolling over an icon. It won't kill you, and you'll only lose a second or two from your day. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
Or indeed using any browser on a Mac; 1. Internet Explorer - nothing but source code 2. Safari - NO navigation 3. Firefox - NO navigation I'm only assuming there's navigation - I caught a glimpse of it in the PDF. Probably cost them a fortune too Actually - I finally found the navigation - but hey, what's the point of having navigation accessible on the front page. Navigation is SO highly overrated... :) On 02/05/2004, at 3:32 PM, Rob Unsworth wrote: Hi all, I just had reason to visit the ACA web site, http://www.aca.gov.au In their own words. The website has been redesigned to allow users to easily find their way around the site. The new site has five information categories: And from the Accessibility page. Nah, I'll let you enjoy the experience. You'll have more fun with flash and Javascript turned off. I like the idea of the 345kb PDF that is provided to help me to use the site. -- Regards, Rob Unsworth Ipswich, Australia --- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
On Sun, 2 May 2004 16:05:53 +1000, Christiaan Knol wrote: 2. Safari - NO navigation Oh It was my browser that was the problem. Silly me, I was thinking that it was the site.. g in order to make this more on topic Clearly, (Australian) government departments need to get more information on standards based development. Perhaps an equivalent of the US 508 legislation? Loath as I am to encourage more legislation passing, any thoughts on how we can get something like this here? Lea ~ cant beleive I am typing this... -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
On Sun, 2 May 2004, Lea de Groot wrote: On Sun, 2 May 2004 16:05:53 +1000, Christiaan Knol wrote: 2. Safari - NO navigation Oh It was my browser that was the problem. Silly me, I was thinking that it was the site.. g in order to make this more on topic Clearly, (Australian) government departments need to get more information on standards based development. Perhaps an equivalent of the US 508 legislation? Loath as I am to encourage more legislation passing, any thoughts on how we can get something like this here? I thought about being off topic, but it is web standards, or a lack of. I was looking for feedback as I think I am about to write a letter telling the ACA that they wasted my tax dollars on that site. -- Regards, Rob Unsworth Ipswich, Australia --- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
Hi Following on from this, it's the kind of thing a Web Standards Group whitepaper could help with - drawing on everyone's collective knowledge. ..or a press release... coming after the Australian Gov's $4 million IT dept website fiasco last year, it may be picked up by a few outlets. Ideas? Cheers James Lea de Groot wrote: On Sun, 2 May 2004 16:05:53 +1000, Christiaan Knol wrote: 2. Safari - NO navigation Oh It was my browser that was the problem. Silly me, I was thinking that it was the site.. g in order to make this more on topic Clearly, (Australian) government departments need to get more information on standards based development. Perhaps an equivalent of the US 508 legislation? Loath as I am to encourage more legislation passing, any thoughts on how we can get something like this here? Lea ~ cant beleive I am typing this... * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
On Sun, 2 May 2004, James Ellis wrote: Hi Following on from this, it's the kind of thing a Web Standards Group whitepaper could help with - drawing on everyone's collective knowledge. ..or a press release... coming after the Australian Gov's $4 million IT dept website fiasco last year, it may be picked up by a few outlets. Ideas? An official press release from the Web Standards Group would carry more weight than an individual. Written by someone with better journalistic skills that yours truly. -- Regards, | Lions District 201 Q3 Rob Unsworth | IT Internet Chairman Ipswich, Australia| http://www.lionsq3.asn.au - * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
Look in the meta tags ... [quote] META content=Microsoft FrontPage 5.0 name=GENERATOR [/quote] HAR!! HAR!! HAR!! HARGUFFAW!!! Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lea de Groot Sent: Sunday, 2 May 2004 4:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority On Sun, 2 May 2004 16:05:53 +1000, Christiaan Knol wrote: 2. Safari - NO navigation Oh It was my browser that was the problem. Silly me, I was thinking that it was the site.. g * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
That site is admittedly terrible. It has no navigation on the frontpage in Firefox for Win either However, it is not indicative of all Australian government sites. I recently discovered http://www.immi.gov.au when a client cited its previous design (it has been redesigned to conform with the new system that seems to be going into place) as brilliant, unreal and just how I want my site to look. So, I took a look, I was horrified by the navy blue buttons on a deep red background and other similar shockers, but I persevered to discover that the entire site validated XHTML 1.0 Strict (well, the homepage and two or three others I tested. All three CSS files validated as well. The only problem I had with the site were the terrible flyout Javascript menus Having visited again (just to check) before telling you folks, I found a redesign which looks significantly better. This time around it is one error short of passing XHTML 1.0 Strict and both CSS files pass. It still has the horrible JS though http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.immi.gov.au/ http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://www.immi.gov.au/includes/styles/flyout.css http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://www.immi.gov.au/includes/styles/homepage.css Still, it is nice to know that someone out there is trying! Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Australian Communications Authority
Hi all, I just had reason to visit the ACA web site, http://www.aca.gov.au In their own words. The website has been redesigned to allow users to easily find their way around the site. The new site has five information categories: And from the Accessibility page. Nah, I'll let you enjoy the experience. You'll have more fun with flash and Javascript turned off. I like the idea of the 345kb PDF that is provided to help me to use the site. -- Regards, Rob Unsworth Ipswich, Australia --- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
