Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-09-07 Thread Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
On 19 Aug 2010, at 11:08, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/content-models.html#annotations-for-assistive-technology-products-aria
 
 However, with the new outline/sectioning algorithm, you can potentially go 
 well over the classic h1-h6 number of heading levels, while the ARIA 
 additional hints only allow mapping back to those six levels.

Really? Maybe I'm missing something - what's non-conforming about:

  section
h1 role=heading aria-level=7Foo/h1
  /section

given that [t]he value for 'aria-level' is an integer greater than or equal to 
1.

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#aria-level

(Those ARIA annotations are strictly unnecessary when UAs implement the Strong 
native semantics and implied ARIA semantics from that table.)

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis

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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-19 Thread David Storey


On 18 Aug 2010, at 23:40, Rob Crowther wrote:


On 18/08/10 17:51, tee wrote:


This example doesn't look very semantic to me :-) Is there a tag  
that can replace or substitute the use of headings?


If you properly nest your section and article elements then you  
can use just h1 everywhere:


section
 h1Monday/h1
 article
   h1First post/h1
   p...
 /article
 article
   h1Second post/h1
   p...
 /article
/section
section
 h1Tuesday/h1
 article
   h1First post...

The weight of each heading is then determined by the outlining  
algorithm:


http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#outlines

So the section or article elements could be taken out of context and  
displayed elsewhere but retain their h1 headings.


You could, but I still use the h1 to h2 inside the sections because no  
browser uses the sectioning algorithm for thing like styling. So all  
the H1s will be the size set by the h1 selector, unless you do  
something like:


section h1 { }
section + section h1 { }
section + section + section h1 { }

etc… which is verbose.


Is this what you meant?

There was some discussion about replacing h1-6 with, simply, h and  
letting the outline algorithm determine the weight, but this was  
eventually dropped for backwards compatibility reasons.


Rob


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David Storey

Chief Web Opener / Product Manager, Opera Dragonfly
W3C WG:  Mobile Web Best Practices / SVG Interest Group

Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32 / E-Mail/XMPP: dsto...@opera.com / Twitter:  
dstorey




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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-19 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 19/08/2010 10:13, David Storey wrote:

So the section or article elements could be taken out of context and
displayed elsewhere but retain their h1 headings.


You could, but I still use the h1 to h2 inside the sections because no
browser uses the sectioning algorithm for thing like styling.


Also worth pointing out that, to my knowledge, no AT/screen reader 
currently supports it either, so this may cause some issues for these 
users at present.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]

www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
__
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
__


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-19 Thread Rob Crowther

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

On 19/08/2010 10:13, David Storey wrote:

So the section or article elements could be taken out of context and
displayed elsewhere but retain their h1 headings.


You could, but I still use the h1 to h2 inside the sections because no
browser uses the sectioning algorithm for thing like styling.


I think Firefox 4.0 will, this will also be the first version of Firefox 
to have the HTML5 parser enabled by default.  Styling is especially fun 
because it's not just sections you have to worry about, several other 
elements also create a new sectioning context.  Life will be made easier 
by the new any() selector:


/* Level 0 */
h1 {
  font-size: 30px;
}
/* Level 1 */
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav) h1 {
  font-size: 25px;
}
/* Level 2 */
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav)
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav) h1 {
  font-size: 20px;
}
/* Level 3 */
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav)
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav)
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav) h1 {
  font-size: 15px;
}

https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/:-moz-any

Also worth pointing out that, to my knowledge, no AT/screen reader 
currently supports it either, so this may cause some issues for these 
users at present.


Similarly the native semantics of elements like header and nav don't yet 
have any impact on screen readers which support the similar ARIA roles 
(unless NVDA added support?) so you should add them even when there's 
duplication:


http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/content-models.html#annotations-for-assistive-technology-products-aria

Rob


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-19 Thread David Storey


On 19 Aug 2010, at 11:51, Rob Crowther wrote:


Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

On 19/08/2010 10:13, David Storey wrote:
So the section or article elements could be taken out of context  
and

displayed elsewhere but retain their h1 headings.


You could, but I still use the h1 to h2 inside the sections  
because no

browser uses the sectioning algorithm for thing like styling.
I think Firefox 4.0 will, this will also be the first version of  
Firefox to have the HTML5 parser enabled by default.  Styling is  
especially fun because it's not just sections you have to worry  
about, several other elements also create a new sectioning context.   
Life will be made easier by the new any() selector:


maybe, but any is not backwards compatible so not really an option to  
use any time soon, and is (AFAICT) a Mozilla only extension that is  
not in any specification. As it isn't even in any spec, even if it  
does get accepted by the CSS working group, it will take ages to be  
specced up, refined and included in the other browsers.


This is why I just stick to using the appropriate h* element for the  
section level that stick to h1, as it is more backwards compatible and  
solves all the head scratching.




/* Level 0 */
h1 {
 font-size: 30px;
}
/* Level 1 */
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav) h1 {
 font-size: 25px;
}
/* Level 2 */
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav)
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav) h1 {
 font-size: 20px;
}
/* Level 3 */
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav)
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav)
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav) h1 {
 font-size: 15px;
}

https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/:-moz-any

Also worth pointing out that, to my knowledge, no AT/screen reader  
currently supports it either, so this may cause some issues for  
these users at present.


Similarly the native semantics of elements like header and nav don't  
yet have any impact on screen readers which support the similar ARIA  
roles (unless NVDA added support?) so you should add them even when  
there's duplication:


http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/content-models.html#annotations-for-assistive-technology-products-aria

Rob


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David Storey

Chief Web Opener / Product Manager, Opera Dragonfly
W3C WG:  Mobile Web Best Practices / SVG Interest Group

Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32 / E-Mail/XMPP: dsto...@opera.com / Twitter:  
dstorey




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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-19 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 19/08/2010 11:51, Rob Crowther wrote:

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Also worth pointing out that, to my knowledge, no AT/screen reader
currently supports it either, so this may cause some issues for these
users at present.


Similarly the native semantics of elements like header and nav don't yet
have any impact on screen readers which support the similar ARIA roles
(unless NVDA added support?) so you should add them even when there's
duplication:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/content-models.html#annotations-for-assistive-technology-products-aria


However, with the new outline/sectioning algorithm, you can potentially 
go well over the classic h1-h6 number of heading levels, while the ARIA 
additional hints only allow mapping back to those six levels. In 
principle though, absolutely.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]

www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
__
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
__


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-19 Thread Rob Crowther

David Storey wrote:


maybe, but any is not backwards compatible so not really an option to 
use any time soon, and is (AFAICT) a Mozilla only extension that is not 
in any specification. As it isn't even in any spec, even if it does get 
accepted by the CSS working group, it will take ages to be specced up, 
refined and included in the other browsers.


I think that its incredible usefulness for this particular scenario will 
lead to very quick uptake by other browser engines as their own HTML5 
parsing support comes online, eg. WebKit switched over (in development 
builds) earlier this month:


http://webkit.org/blog/1273/the-html5-parsing-algorithm/

I'm hopeful standardizing of any (or similar) can go a bit quicker than 
'normal' as the main benefit of this selector is brevity, and the main 
drawback of vendor extensions is the lack of brevity from having to 
state the same thing five times.  I won't be holding my breath, mind you...


This is why I just stick to using the appropriate h* element for the 
section level that stick to h1, as it is more backwards compatible and 
solves all the head scratching.


Of course in practical situations you should just pick and choose the 
parts of HTML5 that work across browsers and are completely backwards 
compatible, but some of us enjoy a bit of head scratching now and again :)


Rob


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-18 Thread Rob Crowther

On 18/08/10 17:51, tee wrote:


This example doesn't look very semantic to me :-) Is there a tag that can 
replace or substitute the use of headings?

If you properly nest your section and article elements then you can 
use just h1 everywhere:


section
  h1Monday/h1
  article
h1First post/h1
p...
  /article
  article
h1Second post/h1
p...
  /article
/section
section
  h1Tuesday/h1
  article
h1First post...

The weight of each heading is then determined by the outlining algorithm:

http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#outlines

So the section or article elements could be taken out of context and 
displayed elsewhere but retain their h1 headings.  Is this what you meant?


There was some discussion about replacing h1-6 with, simply, h and 
letting the outline algorithm determine the weight, but this was 
eventually dropped for backwards compatibility reasons.


Rob


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-14 Thread Anna Vester
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:11 PM, designer 
desig...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote:

 Tom,

 I have 'played' with the simple elements and I like them. I actually wanted
 to have a 'page' element (or wrapper) since that is an element that is used
 an awful lot, but I never got anywhere with folk accepting it. For a simple
 example, see:

 http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/gam/altgam/gwelanmor.html

 Also see:

 http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/gam/altgam/portfolio.html

 for an example of the use of figure and figcaption

 I was very impressed with that - simple and semantic.

 Also note from the above that target=_blank is now valid!

 Hope this helps.

 Bob


Also just wanted to throw this HTML5 gallery in... There are some great
examples of using HTML5 elements - http://html5gallery.com/

Anna.


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Mathew Robertson
 Tom, I think the answer to that is semantics - div has no meaning. Id's are
 there for you to manipulate the look and behaviour, the tags themselves
 offer a way for third parties to glean meaning from the page. e.g you could
 build an overview of a page by grabbing the first bit of text inside each
 section, assistive technologies can benefit from knowing what part of the
 page is the main part, header, footer, asdie or google might give greater
 weight to any text inside a section etc.

That is definitely one person's interpretation... :)

a 'div' definitely has meaning, ie: it is a division of one part of
the page, from another; whether it is used for other behaviour,
doesn't preclude it from from its original meaning.

Similarly, a #id was originally designated as the location within a
page, not for CSS - semantically it is to reference a particular
piece of information, within the bigger piece of content, eg: a
section header maybe...   It just so happens that it works really
well for CSS too.  And simplifying content manipulation. And so on.

I'm not sure why you would infer that information in section's, is any
more important than stuff written in a div?  Can you elaborate?
ie: assistive technologies can already target div's, so using that
argument needs more.


As with all things, use the most appropriate tool for the job.

cheers,
Mathew Robertson


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Chris Knowles

a 'div' definitely has meaning, ie: it is a division of one part of
the page, from another; whether it is used for other behaviour,
doesn't preclude it from from its original meaning.
but when everything is in a div, div ceases to have much meaning. It 
simply says theres a bunch of things on the page that are separate to 
each other without giving any clue as to what they might contain



Similarly, a #id was originally designated as the location within a
page, not for CSS -  semantically it is to reference a particular
piece of information, within the bigger piece of content, eg: a
section header maybe...   It just so happens that it works really
well for CSS too.  And simplifying content manipulation. And so on.
but in the context of the question, the reason to use header, for 
instance, vs div id=header, is to add meaning to the markup



I'm not sure why you would infer that information in section's, is any
more important than stuff written in a div?  Can you elaborate?
ie: assistive technologies can already target div's, so using that
argument needs more.
I didn't intend to infer that, I was just trying to show how section 
is more useful because it can be programmatically accessed in a way that 
div id=section can't. With regard to relevance of content, I was just 
trying to say that a search engine *might* choose to weight content in a 
given tag more than in another, whereas if everything is in a div it's 
harder to do this. A better example would have been to have said that 
the content in article *might* be more relevant to a search engine 
than the content in aside - compared with div id=article and div 
id=sidebar which would be harder to tell apart.


--
Chris Knowles


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Tom Livingston
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 5:53 AM, Chris Knowles w...@ckweb.com.au wrote:
 a 'div' definitely has meaning, ie: it is a division of one part of
 the page, from another; whether it is used for other behaviour,
 doesn't preclude it from from its original meaning.

 but when everything is in a div, div ceases to have much meaning. It simply
 says theres a bunch of things on the page that are separate to each other
 without giving any clue as to what they might contain

 Similarly, a #id was originally designated as the location within a
 page, not for CSS -  semantically it is to reference a particular
 piece of information, within the bigger piece of content, eg: a
 section header maybe...   It just so happens that it works really
 well for CSS too.  And simplifying content manipulation. And so on.

 but in the context of the question, the reason to use header, for
 instance, vs div id=header, is to add meaning to the markup

 I'm not sure why you would infer that information in section's, is any
 more important than stuff written in a div?  Can you elaborate?
 ie: assistive technologies can already target div's, so using that
 argument needs more.

 I didn't intend to infer that, I was just trying to show how section is
 more useful because it can be programmatically accessed in a way that div
 id=section can't. With regard to relevance of content, I was just trying to
 say that a search engine *might* choose to weight content in a given tag
 more than in another, whereas if everything is in a div it's harder to do
 this. A better example would have been to have said that the content in
 article *might* be more relevant to a search engine than the content in
 aside - compared with div id=article and div id=sidebar which would be
 harder to tell apart.

 --
 Chris Knowles


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THanks all

-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Jason Arnold
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 4:53 AM, Chris Knowles w...@ckweb.com.au wrote:
 a 'div' definitely has meaning, ie: it is a division of one part of
 the page, from another; whether it is used for other behaviour,
 doesn't preclude it from from its original meaning.

 but when everything is in a div, div ceases to have much meaning. It simply
 says theres a bunch of things on the page that are separate to each other
 without giving any clue as to what they might contain

 Similarly, a #id was originally designated as the location within a
 page, not for CSS -  semantically it is to reference a particular
 piece of information, within the bigger piece of content, eg: a
 section header maybe...   It just so happens that it works really
 well for CSS too.  And simplifying content manipulation. And so on.

 but in the context of the question, the reason to use header, for
 instance, vs div id=header, is to add meaning to the markup

 I'm not sure why you would infer that information in section's, is any
 more important than stuff written in a div?  Can you elaborate?
 ie: assistive technologies can already target div's, so using that
 argument needs more.

 I didn't intend to infer that, I was just trying to show how section is
 more useful because it can be programmatically accessed in a way that div
 id=section can't. With regard to relevance of content, I was just trying to
 say that a search engine *might* choose to weight content in a given tag
 more than in another, whereas if everything is in a div it's harder to do
 this. A better example would have been to have said that the content in
 article *might* be more relevant to a search engine than the content in
 aside - compared with div id=article and div id=sidebar which would be
 harder to tell apart.

 --
 Chris Knowles

Just to add onto Chris' email.

This sounds like a good place to suggest people purchase Jeremy
Keith's book HTML5 for Web Designers.  In it he actually describes the
semantics of the new tags and gives defines when and how to use tags
like section article header footer etc.  If you have questions
like these definitely pick this book up as it will help clear up the
confusion.

Also as far as section goes there is not much difference between it
and div as section is suppose to be used for grouping of
thematically similar content.  The difference between the two is that
div has no semantic meaning and doesn't tell you anything about the
content whereas section does.

-- 

Jason Arnold
http://www.jasonarnold.net



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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Tom Livingston
 Just to add onto Chris' email.

 This sounds like a good place to suggest people purchase Jeremy
 Keith's book HTML5 for Web Designers.  In it he actually describes the
 semantics of the new tags and gives defines when and how to use tags
 like section article header footer etc.  If you have questions
 like these definitely pick this book up as it will help clear up the
 confusion.

 Also as far as section goes there is not much difference between it
 and div as section is suppose to be used for grouping of
 thematically similar content.  The difference between the two is that
 div has no semantic meaning and doesn't tell you anything about the
 content whereas section does.

 --
 
 Jason Arnold
 http://www.jasonarnold.net
 


I actually have this book. And read it cover to cover. The problem
comes when I actually have to BUILD something using these elements...
guess I'll read it again...


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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RE: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Dan Freeman
Tom,

HTML5 allows for the use of the elements header, footer, and aside in
multiple instances.

For example, an article could have a header and footer:

section
article
header
h2Article title/h2
pAugust 12, 2010/p
/header
p Article copy here. Article copy here. Article
copy here. Article copy here./p
footer
pBy: Dan Freeman/p
/footer
/article
/section

Using ID's would not help you replicate this.  You'd have to structure it
like this:

div class=section
div class=article
div class=header
h2Article title/h2
pAugust 12, 2010/p
/div
p Article copy here. Article copy here. Article
copy here. Article copy here./p
div class=footer
pBy: Dan Freeman/p
/div
/div
/div

Dan Freeman
Webmaster  ERP Administrator
800.650.6506 (TOLL FREE)
330.655.0341 (DIRECT)
www.lexi.com

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Livingston
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 9:59 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

 Ignoring that this isn't using HTML5 elements, but using it as an
 analogy - via the classes and IDs - could this be improved upon? Is
 there a place for section(s) here? Did I get the element concepts
 right?

 Thanks again...


Sorry,, Corrected Structure:

div id=wrap
   div id=header
   pHeader here/p
   /div!-- !End Header --

   div id=container class=clear
   div class=article
   Content with an H2, a UL, Ps and As and a
picture
   /div
   div class=article
   Content with an H2, a UL, Ps and As and a
picture
   /div
   div class=article
   Content with an H2, a UL, Ps and As and a
picture
   /div
   /div!-- !End #container --
   div id=aside
   pSidebar/p
   /div

   div id=footer
   pFooter/p
   /div!-- !End Footer --
   /div!--! end of #wrap --


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Tom Livingston
 Sorry,, Corrected Structure:

 div id=wrap
               div id=header
                       pHeader here/p
               /div!-- !End Header --

               div id=container class=clear
                       div class=article
                               Content with an H2, a UL, Ps and As and a
 picture
                       /div
                       div class=article
                               Content with an H2, a UL, Ps and As and a
 picture
                       /div
                       div class=article
                               Content with an H2, a UL, Ps and As and a
 picture
                       /div
               /div!-- !End #container --
               div id=aside
                       pSidebar/p
               /div

               div id=footer
                       pFooter/p
               /div!-- !End Footer --
       /div!--! end of #wrap --




Dan,

I am aware of the HTML5 elements, thanks. I'm just not ready to leap
into that right yet, but want to try to understand the semantics of
the element and, with classes/IDs, make an analogy with my structure.
My 'header' is the header for the entire page. My 'articles' have an
H2 in each and can't see why I'd wrap each on in a 'header' element
(or analogous one). My structure above is what I am literally using on
a page. WHat I am after is an HTML5 analogy to this. Does a
div.section belong in there somewhere?

THanks


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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RE: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Ted Drake
Tom, just go for it. 
You can add the modernizr or similar js to get IE to recognize the elements. 
But you won't appreciate the semantics of HTML5 until you ditch divs for the 
new tags. I speak from experience. There's a certain level of awareness you get 
while trying to decide the most semantic structure. Continuing to work with 
divs/classes will always leave you half way there.

Ted

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Tom Livingston
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 8:59 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

 Sorry,, Corrected Structure:

 div id=wrap
               div id=header
                       pHeader here/p
               /div!-- !End Header --

               div id=container class=clear
                       div class=article
                               Content with an H2, a UL, Ps and As and a
 picture
                       /div
                       div class=article
                               Content with an H2, a UL, Ps and As and a
 picture
                       /div
                       div class=article
                               Content with an H2, a UL, Ps and As and a
 picture
                       /div
               /div!-- !End #container --
               div id=aside
                       pSidebar/p
               /div

               div id=footer
                       pFooter/p
               /div!-- !End Footer --
       /div!--! end of #wrap --




Dan,

I am aware of the HTML5 elements, thanks. I'm just not ready to leap
into that right yet, but want to try to understand the semantics of
the element and, with classes/IDs, make an analogy with my structure.
My 'header' is the header for the entire page. My 'articles' have an
H2 in each and can't see why I'd wrap each on in a 'header' element
(or analogous one). My structure above is what I am literally using on
a page. WHat I am after is an HTML5 analogy to this. Does a
div.section belong in there somewhere?

THanks


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread designer

Tom,

I have 'played' with the simple elements and I like them. I actually wanted
to have a 'page' element (or wrapper) since that is an element that is used
an awful lot, but I never got anywhere with folk accepting it. For a simple
example, see:

http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/gam/altgam/gwelanmor.html

Also see:

http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/gam/altgam/portfolio.html

for an example of the use of figure and figcaption

I was very impressed with that - simple and semantic.

Also note from the above that target=_blank is now valid!

Hope this helps.

Bob


- Original Message - 
From: Tom Livingston tom...@gmail.com

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5


[snip]
I actually have this book. And read it cover to cover. The problem
comes when I actually have to BUILD something using these elements...
guess I'll read it again...


--

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Tom Livingston
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 1:11 PM, designer
desig...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote:
 Tom,

 I have 'played' with the simple elements and I like them. I actually wanted
 to have a 'page' element (or wrapper) since that is an element that is used
 an awful lot, but I never got anywhere with folk accepting it. For a simple
 example, see:

 http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/gam/altgam/gwelanmor.html

 Also see:


This is great. THanks. One other thing that's making me shy from the
edge. A production (client site) site that relies on JS to render
makes me sweat a little. Can anyone convince me that it's ok?


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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RE: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Ted Drake
Take a look at the js, it's pretty simple. 
However, it is true that you are leaving yourself open. At Yahoo, we treat IE6 
as an a-level browser. http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/articles/gbs/
So you aren't going to see me push to change Yahoo! Finance to HTML5 tags. 
However, I have been doing it to smaller projects and am about to convert a 
client's site to html5 structure. 

You need to build a site to learn HTML5 semantics, it's like the old days of 
hybrid table-based layouts. 7 years ago you really needed to ditch tables to 
truly understand CSS. 

If you are worried about a client, than do it on your personal site or for a 
more progressive client.

Ted




-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Tom Livingston
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 10:34 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 1:11 PM, designer
desig...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote:
 Tom,

 I have 'played' with the simple elements and I like them. I actually wanted
 to have a 'page' element (or wrapper) since that is an element that is used
 an awful lot, but I never got anywhere with folk accepting it. For a simple
 example, see:

 http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/gam/altgam/gwelanmor.html

 Also see:


This is great. THanks. One other thing that's making me shy from the
edge. A production (client site) site that relies on JS to render
makes me sweat a little. Can anyone convince me that it's ok?


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Tony Crockford
On 13 Aug 2010, at 18:51, Ted Drake wrote:
 You need to build a site to learn HTML5 semantics, it's like the old days of 
 hybrid table-based layouts. 7 years ago you really needed to ditch tables to 
 truly understand CSS. 


Are you suggesting that to switch to HTML5 we should avoid the use of div 
entirely, using only section, article etc to chunk up the content?





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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Tom Livingston
 Take a look at the js, it's pretty simple.
 However, it is true that you are leaving yourself open. At Yahoo, we treat 
 IE6 as an a-level browser. http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/articles/gbs/
 So you aren't going to see me push to change Yahoo! Finance to HTML5 tags. 
 However, I have been doing it to smaller projects and am about to convert a 
 client's site to html5 structure.

 You need to build a site to learn HTML5 semantics, it's like the old days of 
 hybrid table-based layouts. 7 years ago you really needed to ditch tables to 
 truly understand CSS.

 If you are worried about a client, than do it on your personal site or for a 
 more progressive client.

 Ted


Thanks Ted. Appreciate it.

-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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RE: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Ted Drake
No, I'm suggesting that if you truly want to learn html5 semantics you need to 
build a site without divs. Once you understand the semantics you can better 
understand why you would use the new tags and why you would fall back to divs. 
But to continue working with divs that have semantic class names will not give 
you that understanding. It's a mental leap.



-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Tony Crockford
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 10:57 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

On 13 Aug 2010, at 18:51, Ted Drake wrote:
 You need to build a site to learn HTML5 semantics, it's like the old days of 
 hybrid table-based layouts. 7 years ago you really needed to ditch tables to 
 truly understand CSS. 


Are you suggesting that to switch to HTML5 we should avoid the use of div 
entirely, using only section, article etc to chunk up the content?





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[WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-12 Thread Tom Livingston
List,

Here's a theory question ( i think) for ya. I'm working on a layout,
and am attempting to use section and aside. Properly, I believe.
But as I look at my layout, I'm thinking ok, i'll put an ID on this
section, and one on that section... and I stopped and thought Uh
oh... it's the same as i've always done with div id= etc. Am I
wrong? Is there still benefit to using section... I don't wanna just
substitute div for section... am I way off track already??

help...

-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-12 Thread Chris Knowles
Tom, I think the answer to that is semantics - div has no meaning. Id's 
are there for you to manipulate the look and behaviour, the tags 
themselves offer a way for third parties to glean meaning from the page. 
e.g you could build an overview of a page by grabbing the first bit of 
text inside each section, assistive technologies can benefit from 
knowing what part of the page is the main part, header, footer, asdie or 
google might give greater weight to any text inside a section etc.


The problem is that IE currently doesn't recognise these tags, but if 
you do this for any element it does...


script
document. createElement(‘ header’ );
document. createElement(‘ nav’ ) ;
document. createElement(‘ article’ ) ;
document. createElement(‘ footer’ );
/script

or use this which includes it...
http://remysharp.com/2009/01/07/html5-enabling-script/

except the issue here is that it makes your page dependent on 
javascript. Without it some elements will be styled in IE, some won't


(the above comes from Introducing HTML5 by Remy Sharp and Bruce Lawson)

--
Chris Knowles


On 13/08/10 6:38 AM, Tom Livingston wrote:

List,

Here's a theory question ( i think) for ya. I'm working on a layout,
and am attempting to usesection  andaside. Properly, I believe.
But as I look at my layout, I'm thinking ok, i'll put an ID on this
section, and one on that section... and I stopped and thought Uh
oh... it's the same as i've always done withdiv id=  etc. Am I
wrong? Is there still benefit to usingsection... I don't wanna just
substitute div for section... am I way off track already??

help...




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