Re: [WSG] Hacks / Work Arounds for IE Mac and Old er IE Pc versions
I would be interested to hear suggestions on methods for improving display across platformss / browsers - IE Mac - OS9 - IE Mac - OSX - other OS X broswers (I think everything works fine) Mac IE is the only Mac browser you need to hack if you are concerned about audiences greater than 0.5% of the market. (It's just now falling below 1% on some of my sites.) If you are concerned about less than that, consider Netscape 4 hacks on OS 9 (about 0.2% on some sites), but IMO it's better to deliver them a style-less site. Modern Safari is hack-free, but older versions for OS 10.1 and 10.2 (about 20% of the Mac market) need help with min-height. For that, you might consider this: http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/09/16/minheight_fi/ I was thinking of using an overriding style sheet for IE Mac using the following hack /* IE5/Mac Only Styles Uses the IE5/Mac Band Pass Filter: http:// stopdesign.com/examples/ie5mac-bpf/ --- */ /*\*//*/ @import url(ie5mac.css); /**/ what are the groups thoughts on this hack? does it work? is there a better way? It works. There is no better way, and it keeps your main sheet clean. It's a good thing because it's valid, and the browser is dead so it won't change its interpretation of it, and it's a parsing bug that is unlikely to crop up in other, newer browsers. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Hacks / Work Arounds for IE Mac and Old er IE Pc versions
I have noticed that
some repeated background are not displaying in IE 5.5 since everything
else works I was wondering if the background issue could be resolved?
Also the perspective
from IE Mac is messy the styles are not applied or have obscure
results. I am not on mac so testing is a little harder
I believe that in other
circumstances everything works fine
the link is
www.phuturetrax.co.uk/v1/home/ - takes you straight in
I would be interested
to hear suggestions on methods for improving display across platformss
/ browsers
- IE Mac - OS9
- IE Mac - OSX
- other OS X
broswers (I think everything works fine)
I was thinking of using an overriding style sheet for IE Mac using the
following hack
/* IE5/Mac Only Styles
Uses the IE5/Mac Band Pass Filter:
http://stopdesign.com/examples/ie5mac-bpf/
--- */
/*\*//*/
@import url("ie5mac.css");
/**/
what are the groups thoughts on this hack? does it work? is there a better way?
Thanks in advance, Sam S
[WSG] Hacks
Whenever I trawl lists like css-discuss, I'm always surprised about the amount of hack related discussion there is. People are always talking about the holy hack, the underscore hack or the star hack, about IE7, the high pass filter or the mid pass filter. As somebody who is quite experienced with CSS you'd be forgiven for thinking that I'd know about all these hacks. However about the only hack I use (and have ever actually needed) is Taneks old school box model hack, and even this I use sparingly. So I'm interested to hear what you folks think. Do you hack or are you hack free? If you hack, what methods do you use, why do you use that method, and more importantly, why do you need it in the first place? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hacks
The only hack that I think is really necessary is the box model hack. Hacks are over-used, usually to quickly solve a cross-browser problem that can actually be fixed with good, non-hack CSS. This is the goal of web standards after all - one size fits all. Patrick Griffiths (PTG) http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/ http://www.htmldog.com - Original Message - From: Andy Budd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 11:19 AM Subject: [WSG] Hacks Whenever I trawl lists like css-discuss, I'm always surprised about the amount of hack related discussion there is. People are always talking about the holy hack, the underscore hack or the star hack, about IE7, the high pass filter or the mid pass filter. As somebody who is quite experienced with CSS you'd be forgiven for thinking that I'd know about all these hacks. However about the only hack I use (and have ever actually needed) is Taneks old school box model hack, and even this I use sparingly. So I'm interested to hear what you folks think. Do you hack or are you hack free? If you hack, what methods do you use, why do you use that method, and more importantly, why do you need it in the first place? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Hacks
Andy Budd said: So I'm interested to hear what you folks think. Do you hack or are you hack free? If you hack, what methods do you use, why do you use that method, and more importantly, why do you need it in the first place? The most useful CSS 'hacks' I know of are the various filters developed by Tantek Celik. That way, my core style sheets stay hack-free and I can keep browser-specific hacks (like the box model hack) in separate style sheets. It's easier to maintain, and as time goes on and browser support gets better, the hacks become safely redundant. My usual set up is a filter.css that's @import-ed in the page (excluding the geriatric browsers); filter.css then imports the main, hack-free style sheet and uses the mid pass filter to pass an ie5x.css file containing the box model hacks only to IE5/Win. Ingenious! I'm considering the newest filter for IE5/Mac but, since the browser never shows up in my stats, I'm saved another level of hackery. Owen -Original Message- From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 July 2004 11:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Hacks Whenever I trawl lists like css-discuss, I'm always surprised about the amount of hack related discussion there is. People are always talking about the holy hack, the underscore hack or the star hack, about IE7, the high pass filter or the mid pass filter. As somebody who is quite experienced with CSS you'd be forgiven for thinking that I'd know about all these hacks. However about the only hack I use (and have ever actually needed) is Taneks old school box model hack, and even this I use sparingly. So I'm interested to hear what you folks think. Do you hack or are you hack free? If you hack, what methods do you use, why do you use that method, and more importantly, why do you need it in the first place? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information contained in this communication is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorised to receive it. If you are not the intended recipient you should not disclose, copy, distribute or take action on the contents of this information, except for the purpose of delivery to the addressee. Any unauthorised use is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by email immediately and delete the message from your computer. ECOTEC Research Consulting Limited Registered in England No. 1650169 Registered Office: Priestley House, 28-34 Albert Street, Birmingham, B4 7UD, UK Tel: +44 (0)121 616 3600 http://www.ecotec.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Hacks
From: Andy Budd [snip] So I'm interested to hear what you folks think. Do you hack or are you hack free? Pretty much hack free here as well. Only thing I may use occasionally is using import to hide things from generation 4 browsers (and occasionally exploiting the flawed handling of single quote @import 'blah.css' statements to hide things from IE5/Mac) Maybe I'm just not pushing the envelope far enough to find myself in situations where hacks are unavoidable... Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hacks
I never used to use any of the Hacks (Hax 4 those who play CS!) as i could never get around to learning them so in fact i use to just work around them as much as i could. But i do now find myself using the underscore hack alot for IE, but only to give things like min-height values to an element or even to nudge some sizing information a pixel or two down. Hacks are dirty and we should try and avoid them at all costs but sometimes we just need to do it, for the sake of IE mainly Mark Harwood http://phunky.co.uk/2004/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hacks
Andy Budd wrote: So I'm interested to hear what you folks think. Do you hack or are you hack free? If you hack, what methods do you use, why do you use that method, and more importantly, why do you need it in the first place? I try to avoid them. Just this week I had some really good results hack free. I did some testing on Mac IE and came across one of its div layout issues. Which are well known and can be fixed using the div clearing technique, I noticed a javascript function that does a document.write which I quickly added to check and hey presto it fixed the problem. But this was additional markup even if it was added by javascript and I felt that I could get it around it. So I adjusted the footer a bit and put it inside the main div container, since the footer clears:both it corrected the problem and didn't seem to alter the page layout at all. I had the fix and could of left it at that, but I forged on and altered a few things and ended up working around the problem. Its like losing your keys. I am the sort of person who still looks for my missing keys even though I have a spare set ready to go.. I just can seem to forget about it and find them later on, I am not really happy until I've found the missing set... The hack here is the spare set of keys, the solution until I find the missing set.. But I usually can't let it go.. unless I they are well and truly lost. ;) One question I have, Is using a CSS selector that is not support by a certain browser, a hack? Some people think so.. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Hacks
-Original Message- From: Andy Budd So I'm interested to hear what you folks think. Do you hack or are you hack free? If you hack, what methods do you use, why do you use that method, and more importantly, why do you need it in the first place? I try to do as little hacking as possible, and subscribe to the minimalist approach. But that is also my downfall, cause I don't have the knowledge of CSS/browser issues most of you guys do, and I probably don't address them as well as most of you do when it comes to fine tuning your CSS. I test my stuff on everything I can, but just get so frustrated that so much of our time and effort is spent supporting user agent shortcomings. So I pose another question, if it was a perfect world and it supported CSS properly, what percentage of your development time would be saved on each project? Geoff * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Hacks
Neerav Bhatt wrote: I only use the @import hack for version 4 and older browsers I don't really consider @import a hack. There's no messing around to exploit parsing bugs. Very useful for filtering out the older browsers, though ;) Owen -Original Message- From: Neerav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 July 2004 11:46 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Hacks My belief is that hacks cannot be relied upon in 'build-and-forget' one-off websites. I only use the @import hack for version 4 and older browsers -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information contained in this communication is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorised to receive it. If you are not the intended recipient you should not disclose, copy, distribute or take action on the contents of this information, except for the purpose of delivery to the addressee. Any unauthorised use is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by email immediately and delete the message from your computer. ECOTEC Research Consulting Limited Registered in England No. 1650169 Registered Office: Priestley House, 28-34 Albert Street, Birmingham, B4 7UD, UK Tel: +44 (0)121 616 3600 http://www.ecotec.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Hacks
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:55 , Geoff Deering So I pose another question, if it was a perfect world and it supported CSS properly, what percentage of your development time would be saved on each project? Very little now, as i've developed a standard for all my sites, which you can tell via the markup. But it would have saved me huge amount during the rather large learning curve that i started with. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Hacks
I often find myself in need of the Holly Hack for one reason or another. That's about the only one I will use. I tend to stay away from the Tantek hack if possible by not using border and padding together on divs. Like many others who have replied to this thread, I try to not use hacks as much as possible. However, sometimes, it is inevitable for a particular layout you are trying to achieve. Will Chatham oOo www.willchatham.com --- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hacks
Chris Blown wrote: Its like losing your keys. I am the sort of person who still looks for my missing keys even though I have a spare set ready to go.. I just can seem to forget about it and find them later on, I am not really happy until I've found the missing set... The hack here is the spare set of keys, the solution until I find the missing set.. But I usually can't let it go.. unless I they are well and truly lost. ;) I couldn't agree more. I think it's often the case of treating the symptoms rather than looking for the cause. If my CSS doesn't quite 'work' in a particular browser I tend to spend time finding out why and then coming up with an alternate method that will work. A lot of people seem to throw a hack at the problem in an almost knee jerk reaction. Personally I'm yet to come across a CSS issue (touch wood) that couldn't be fixed by taking a different approach. Of course this often involves changing the mark-up which some people would take issue with. One question I have, Is using a CSS selector that is not support by a certain browser, a hack? Some people think so.. Absolutely not. That's the beauty of CSS. Graceful degradation. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hacks
Andy Budd wrote: So I'm interested to hear what you folks think. Do you hack or are you hack free? If you hack, what methods do you use, why do you use that method, and more importantly, why do you need it in the first place? I'm like you... box model, and even that, rarely. I KNOW some things on my site don't work 100% on IE. But, it still works, and degrades gracefully- just don't have the same broder, or is not perfectly lined up Everywhere I go on the forums, I'm ranting something about IE and promoting firefox... enough so that my stats are now reaching close to 25% of my userbase has made the move to firefox, and ie is dropping below 60% Soon enough, i think i will be able to say the opposite. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: Re: [WSG] Hacks
I am on holiday between the 30th July and the 14th August. I will reply to your e-mail as soon as possible on my return the following day. Thank you for your understanding. Jay Hills - Ikonik.net (This is an automated response. Please do not reply to this e-mail as it will simply send another back - Thanks) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hacks
We've got a site going live next tuesday, or possibly wednesday if copy doesn't get approved. This site we have been working on for a massive 4 days, including intergration with reasonably complex .net backend, and several flash components. Out of some 25 pages there are maybe 9 unique templates and it has to look virtually the same on ie5+win ie5mac gecko1.4+ and safari 1.0 + (and though not required we are also testing on opera7.2) Did we use some hacks... hell yes maybe we aren't very good but to turn this site around we couldn't take the time to finesse everything, if a browser was behaving oddly we fixed that specific quirk, with a hack if necessary... and we imported a separate style sheet for each ie5. Normally I would say avoid using hacks by taking time to build the css properly, but sometimes one does not have that luxury. Plus I would most certainly prefer to put a hack in a css file than to add extra html. What do people feel about that? Is it better to have any mess in the css file, or in every html file? Hacks are also a great stepping stone for a learner, if used properly. Let a learner concentrate on one thing at a time if they need to and let perfection come with experience. On a well developed project most hacks can be avoided, but with any complex layout there is always the chance that some issue will call for desparate measures, especially after you have already had several rounds of client changes. Yes hacks are probably an evil, but in the real world they are probably a necessary evil, or at least that is what I think s Andy Budd wrote: Chris Blown wrote: Its like losing your keys. I am the sort of person who still looks for my missing keys even though I have a spare set ready to go.. I just can seem to forget about it and find them later on, I am not really happy until I've found the missing set... The hack here is the spare set of keys, the solution until I find the missing set.. But I usually can't let it go.. unless I they are well and truly lost. ;) I couldn't agree more. I think it's often the case of treating the symptoms rather than looking for the cause. If my CSS doesn't quite 'work' in a particular browser I tend to spend time finding out why and then coming up with an alternate method that will work. A lot of people seem to throw a hack at the problem in an almost knee jerk reaction. Personally I'm yet to come across a CSS issue (touch wood) that couldn't be fixed by taking a different approach. Of course this often involves changing the mark-up which some people would take issue with. One question I have, Is using a CSS selector that is not support by a certain browser, a hack? Some people think so.. Absolutely not. That's the beauty of CSS. Graceful degradation. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: Re: [WSG] Hacks
I am on holiday between the 30th July and the 14th August. I will reply to your e-mail as soon as possible on my return the following day. Thank you for your understanding. Jay Hills - Ikonik.net (This is an automated response. Please do not reply to this e-mail as it will simply send another back - Thanks) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Hacks
Just to pipe in on one small detail I noticed (not just in this message, but I'll piggy back onto it here) Normally I would say avoid using hacks by taking time to build the css properly, It's often not just the CSS that needs to be changed to work properly, but it's a case of revisiting the markup, maybe re-arranging things ever so slightly, being a bit more specific, adding a few hooks here in there (without affecting the semantics/structure...this could mean using DIVs and SPANs within reason, or doing changes like liblah/li to lipblah/p/li just so that you have an extra container/block level element to work with) If the (X)HTML is rubbish/convoluted to begin with, it's then a nightmare to style consistently. Although in theory CSS should be able to do everything, it's often a case of producing markup that is conducive to the particular styling you're trying to achieve. No, not advocating the practice of swamping everything with DIVs and SPANs, but there are certainly many different ways to mark something up in a semantically sound way, and often only one of those ways lends itself to being styled a particular way. Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: RE: [WSG] Hacks
I am on holiday between the 30th July and the 14th August. I will reply to your e-mail as soon as possible on my return the following day. Thank you for your understanding. Jay Hills - Ikonik.net (This is an automated response. Please do not reply to this e-mail as it will simply send another back - Thanks) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Hacks
G'day As others have said, there's usually a way to avoid using hacks. I try to steer clear of them. I do (these days) import style sheets to hide them from V4 browsers - a beneficial side-effect of using a perfectly acceptable method of adding CSS to an (x)html file. Using conditional statements to get MSIE to load another css file is handy too. To me neither of the two above are really hacks. I use these occasionally (mainly for MSIE's lack of support for position:fixed) but that's about as far as I will go. I won't use hacks that use backslashes, rules hidden in comments etc, because they rely on bugs. What happens if the parsing bug that the hack relies on is fixed but the rendering bug that made the hack necessary remains? Is it such a big deal if a site doesn't look 100% the same in a few browsers? The site in my sig may suffer from it - seems OK in Firefox, Opera 7.5 and MSIE6, but might have some problems in MSIE5.x and certainly will look different in MSIE/NN4. No idea about Safari but I'm guessing it's OK. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design www.bwdzine.com Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** Scanned by eScan Anti-Virus and Content Security Software. Visit http://www.mwti.net for more info on eScan and MailScan. ** * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
