Re: [WSG] Is RTF accessible?

[Matthew Holloway]

Hi Scott

Scott Barnes wrote:

How do folks find the new OOXML format in regards to this line of thinking?
  


Ah, now this is something I know about...

Firstly there is no new OOXML format yet. No one, not even the voting 
bodies that represent each nation, saw a final OOXML spec when voting. 
Here's a blog post describing what meagre information nations had due to 
the ISO process: http://holloway.co.nz/blog/?p=12 . The current state of 
OOXML is unknown and despite several ISO deadlines that demand a final 
text (some up to a month ago) there are still no signs of it[1]. The 
OOXML format is in such a mess  that 
Microsoft have postponed supporting OOXML until at least 2010 and -- in 
the meantime -- they're implementing ODF.


Now I don't like describing it that way but it's important to include 
that information as a disclaimer of sorts about my following guesses 
about what will appear in the final text.


.rtf and .doc DO NOT have, but OOXML will probably have:
* form-field labels
* table summaries and captions
* multi-level table cells (albeit with some limitations, see 
http://iso-vote.com/technical-issues-in-ooxml.pdf )
* Image Maps by way of drawing transparent vector graphics overtop of 
bitmaps/vectors. Eg vector graphics with opacity:0 (actually rtf/doc may 
allow this via VML)


Within the ISO process that produced the new OOXML I think it's fair to 
say that New Zealand and Canada were the primary advocates for 
accessibility. I was involved in the New Zealand process with Standards 
NZ and if there are any particular accessibility features that people 
are curious about please let me know and I'll see whether they're in OOXML.


One weird thing is that OOXML promotes making webpages with VML instead 
of SVG. See the VML section in: 
http://iso-vote.com/technical-issues-in-ooxml.pdf


Further...

Scott Barnes wrote:

In that I'm curious to see what WSG thinks of it and how it fits in with future 
potential.


Microsoft Office is joining OpenOffice.org, KOffice and Abiword and all 
the rest in supporting ODF.


Here are some guidelines for producing accessible ODF documents,

   
http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/office-accessibility/v1.0/cs01/ODF_Accessibility_Guidelines-v1.0.html


The nice thing about reading these guidelines is that it helps people 
think about accessibility in a more abstract sense, in that you can see 
the overlap between ODF and HTML.


ODF is a ZIP file of XML, and its choice of technology is much more 
aligned with that of the web than OOXML (ODF builds upon SVG, MathML, 
SMIL, XForms, etc) and so web developers can pick it up more easily.


So I imagine that the future of Office Suites is in web developers 
integrating office suites with the web (and vice-versa). Or in other 
words --  better publishing cycles, with more automation.


And if people are interested in ODF I can talk about that quite a bit too ;)


[1] http://www.openmalaysiablog.com/2008/05/the-south-afric.html#more 
which reads in part:
"There is no indication when the final DIS text might be expected, but 
has not been distributed within the one month period prescribed.


Given the magnitude of the specification and the number of identified 
edits required it was clear that this directive could not have been 
met. This is the clearest possible indication that DIS 29500 as 
submitted by Ecma and as modified by the BRM is not ready for fast 
track processing. It was not incumbent on the participants of the BRM 
to modify this clearly stated requirement."




--
.Matthew Holloway
http://holloway.co.nz/



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RE: [WSG] Is RTF accessible?

[Scott Barnes]

How do folks find the new OOXML format in regards to this line of thinking? In 
that I'm curious to see what WSG thinks of it and how it fits in with future 
potential.

-
Scott Barnes
{Product Manager}
Microsoft.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hayden's Harness 
Attachment
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:15 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Is RTF accessible?

This topic is very interesting. As a screen reader user I have enjoyed always 
getting Rich Text files. I use to get bills in HTML which was great. However, 
everything is now PDFs. I hate PDFs! With a little more care, you could do 
everything a PDF does in an HTML file. I use a RTF editor called Jarte 
(http://www.jarte.com) with conversion packs I downloaded from Microsoft. My 
Jarte word Processor can now read everything from Word 97 to Word 2007. I am 
not a lover of Word and do not have it installed on ny PC. Besides being a 
resource hog Word takes over everything and has ties to everything on the PC. I 
do not know what is worse, Word or a virus.

Angus MacKinnon
Infoforce Services
http://www.infoforce-services.com

"Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into
the light." - Helen Keller



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Re: [WSG] Is RTF accessible?

[Hayden's Harness Attachment]

This topic is very interesting. As a screen reader user I have enjoyed always 
getting Rich Text files. I use to get bills in HTML which was great. However, 
everything is now PDFs. I hate PDFs! With a little more care, you could do 
everything a PDF does in an HTML file. I use a RTF editor called Jarte 
(http://www.jarte.com) with conversion packs I downloaded from Microsoft. My 
Jarte word Processor can now read everything from Word 97 to Word 2007. I am 
not a lover of Word and do not have it installed on ny PC. Besides being a 
resource hog Word takes over everything and has ties to everything on the PC. I 
do not know what is worse, Word or a virus.

Angus MacKinnon
Infoforce Services
http://www.infoforce-services.com

"Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into
the light." - Helen Keller



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Re: [WSG] Is RTF accessible?

[Matthew Holloway]

Jessica Enders wrote:
I am trying to work out whether a Rich Text File is considered 
accessible, to the extent that Australian federal government agencies 
must provide electronic documents in an accessible format.


Is there a list of accessibility features that a format must allow, or
does the Australian federal government merely require "accessible"?

I am not particularly familiar with RTF however it's my understanding
that RTF may be considered a different serialization of the binary .doc
format, and by "different" I mean plain text:


{\rtf1\ansi{\fonttbl\f0\fswiss Helvetica;}\f0\pard
This is some {\b bold} text.\par
}
  


Yet another different serialization of .doc is into XML and this is
called ECMA-376 a.k.a. OOXML, or at least OOXML as it was in 2006 (and
from here on when I write OOXML I do mean OOXML as of 2006).

It's my understanding that RTF is only as accessible as OOXML and
therefore one could take the approach of looking for OOXML accessibility
reviews.

So, taking that approach, here is some criticism of OOXML accessibility
that apply equally to RTF:

http://tinyurl.com/yo6q4y
http://holloway.co.nz/ooxml-accessibility.pdf (an article of mine)
http://blogs.sun.com/korn/entry/talking_with_microsoft_s_gray
http://blogs.sun.com/korn/entry/cotinuing_the_conversation_with_gray


--
.Matthew Holloway
http://holloway.co.nz/




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Re: [WSG] Is RTF accessible?

[Alastair Campbell]

> if styles are used correctly, RTF files can be used well by screen readers.

RTF doesn't use 'styles' in the way that Word (or HTML) does, it
applies presentation tags, the semantic based styles that Word has
(e.g. Heading 1) are not there. There's an example on the Wikipedia
page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Text_Format

Word is more accessible for a screen reader user (assuming you have
it), and also a much better basis for creating an accessible PDF,
(which also are more capable of being accessible).

> Also, section 2.3 of the World Wide Web Access: Disability Discrimination
> Act Advisory Notes... suggests that RTF is considered acceptable.

It's the difference between available and accessible. If you're doing
a simple text document, then there's little difference. If you use
images, tables, columns or headings, you can't do an RTF document that
would meet WCAG 1 at double-A.

-Alastair


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Re: [WSG] Is RTF accessible?

[Rae Buerckner]

Hi Josh,

I work in Private Sector now, but until 1 year ago I was had of Ministerial
and Prime Ministerial Projects in the ICT Applications Branch at the
Department of Industry Tourism & Resources in Canberra Australia.

Cheers,

Rae

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 7:27 AM, Josh Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Hello Rae,
>
> Wondering where you get this info, and what countries you are speaking of.
>
> - Josh
>
>
> Rae Buerckner wrote:
>
> Hi Jessica,
>
> The 2 formats most commonly provided formats by Government departments is
> PDF & RTF format.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rae
>
> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Jessica Enders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello
>>
>> I am trying to work out whether a Rich Text File is considered accessible,
>> to the extent that Australian federal government agencies must provide
>> electronic documents in an accessible format.
>>
>> RTF is owned by Microsoft, but most word processors can read it.
>> Apparently if styles are used correctly, RTF files can be used well by
>> screen readers. Also, section 2.3 of the World Wide Web Access: Disability
>> Discrimination Act Advisory Notes (from 2002, mind you) on the Human Rights
>> and Equal Opportunity Commission website (http://
>> hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/standards/www_3/www_3.html) suggests that
>> RTF is considered acceptable.
>>
>> Any views?
>>
>> Jessica Enders
>> Director
>> Formulate Information Design
>> 
>> http://formulate.com.au
>> 
>> Phone: (02) 6116 8765
>> Fax: (02) 8456 5916
>> PO Box 5108
>> Braddon ACT 2612
>> 
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] Is RTF accessible?

[Josh Moore]

Hello Rae,

Wondering where you get this info, and what countries you are speaking
of. 

- Josh


Rae Buerckner wrote:
Hi Jessica,
  
The 2 formats most commonly provided formats by Government departments
is PDF & RTF format.
  
Cheers,
  
Rae
  
  On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Jessica
Enders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
  Hello

I am trying to work out whether a Rich Text File is considered
accessible, to the extent that Australian federal government agencies
must provide electronic documents in an accessible format.

RTF is owned by Microsoft, but most word processors can read it.
Apparently if styles are used correctly, RTF files can be used well by
screen readers. Also, section 2.3 of the World Wide Web Access:
Disability Discrimination Act Advisory Notes (from 2002, mind you) on
the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission website (http://hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/standards/www_3/www_3.html)
suggests that RTF is considered acceptable.

Any views?

Jessica Enders
Director
Formulate Information Design

http://formulate.com.au

Phone: (02) 6116 8765
Fax: (02) 8456 5916
PO Box 5108
Braddon ACT 2612




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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1460 - Release Date: 5/22/2008 7:06 AM
  




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Re: [WSG] Is RTF accessible?

[Rae Buerckner]

Hi Jessica,

The 2 formats most commonly provided formats by Government departments is
PDF & RTF format.

Cheers,

Rae

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Jessica Enders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hello
>
> I am trying to work out whether a Rich Text File is considered accessible,
> to the extent that Australian federal government agencies must provide
> electronic documents in an accessible format.
>
> RTF is owned by Microsoft, but most word processors can read it. Apparently
> if styles are used correctly, RTF files can be used well by screen readers.
> Also, section 2.3 of the World Wide Web Access: Disability Discrimination
> Act Advisory Notes (from 2002, mind you) on the Human Rights and Equal
> Opportunity Commission website (http://
> hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/standards/www_3/www_3.html) suggests that
> RTF is considered acceptable.
>
> Any views?
>
> Jessica Enders
> Director
> Formulate Information Design
> 
> http://formulate.com.au
> 
> Phone: (02) 6116 8765
> Fax: (02) 8456 5916
> PO Box 5108
> Braddon ACT 2612
> 
>
>
>
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>


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[WSG] Is RTF accessible?

[Jessica Enders]

Hello

I am trying to work out whether a Rich Text File is considered  
accessible, to the extent that Australian federal government agencies  
must provide electronic documents in an accessible format.


RTF is owned by Microsoft, but most word processors can read it.  
Apparently if styles are used correctly, RTF files can be used well  
by screen readers. Also, section 2.3 of the World Wide Web Access:  
Disability Discrimination Act Advisory Notes (from 2002, mind you) on  
the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission website (http:// 
hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/standards/www_3/www_3.html) suggests  
that RTF is considered acceptable.


Any views?

Jessica Enders
Director
Formulate Information Design

http://formulate.com.au

Phone: (02) 6116 8765
Fax: (02) 8456 5916
PO Box 5108
Braddon ACT 2612




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