Re: [WSG] The notion of accessibility [was: Javascript Accessibility]
HI Mathew So now a slight rant... I dont understand how: span role=aria-checkbox is better than: input type=checkbox ... ? 3 points 1. The ARIA spec recommends the use of native semantics where ever possible: Use native markup when possible. Use the semantic elements that are defined in the host markup language. For example, with HTML or XHTML, it is better to use the native checkbox than to use a div element with role checkbox as these should already be accessible through your browser. There may also be cases where ARIA can augment an existing element in the host language. For example, a grid and gridcell elements can reuse the functionality of a table when overlaying it. ARIA roles, states, and properties are best used when the markup language does not support all the semantics required. When a role attribute is added to an element, the semantics and behavior of the element are augmented or overridden by the role behavior. [1] 2. WAI-ARIA is not just for HTML, it is designed to be used with other languages such as XUL and SVG. SVG does not contain any native markup for controls, so this is a case where the ARIA roles for controls can be useful. 3. If a developer wants a tri-state checkbox in HTML it may be appropriate to use input type=image role=aria-checkbox aria-checked=mixed ... example: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/ARIA/tristatecheck.html [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#buildingaccessibleapplications regards stevef 2009/3/2 Mathew Robertson mat...@optusnet.com.au: On 3/2/09 2:02 AM, Mathew Robertson mat...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Its been possible to do ARIA style accessibility since about 1995 - its just now that people are starting to care. Matt Morgan-May matt...@adobe.com wrote: Not sure what value you were hoping to add to the conversation, but MSAA, the Windows accessibility API, didn't come out until April 1997. And that much of what ARIA has to offer is actually enabled by the IAccessible2 or User Interface Automation APIs, which are much more recent and comprehensive. ARIA is a very ambitious spec, and a number of companies contributing to its support in a very short period of time, relative to the work that's necessary. But, thanks for the cynicism! We don't get enough of that on the Internet these days. :) :) It was definitly meant as a little cynisism... I did say about 1995 - so I should have been more specific as to the actual year... so I'll expand my sentiment (it might be a little long-winded for some people...). Firstly, accessibilty is not *just* about being able to keystrokes, as its been possible to use braille devices in linux before 1995 (aka Win95 came out that year), using a serial console. Its not just about supporting disability, it also represents support for other languages, layouts, and so on. Indeed as someone quite bright wrote (I dont have a link), making applications more accessible, helps not only those that specifically need that extra help, but also those that simply make use of those features. For example: to using a serial console for text display, has been available since the first mainframes existed - so braille devices worked too. One would expect that new user interface paradigms could provide at least a similar equivalent - in browser terms, it should have been possible to navigate with keyboard and screen-reader only, and it was (albeit it was quite clunky). So one variation of accesbility, is to support multiple languages. Its easy to look back with hindsight, but it was pretty apparent that UTF8 and Unicode was the direction for accessible language support. This was available from about 1993 - the real issue here appers that software vendors chose a different path (eg: Java choosing to use double-byte characters), then became committed to it. And indeed we now see that braille support has been added to Unicode, abeit only recently - imagine the accessibility support that would currently be available, if Win95 had have support unicode natively (font rendering and keycode composition) from day dot... alt tags have been available since html 1, with its recommended practise to show blank for img's that dont mean anything. longdesc has been available since html 4 (1998). Using the tab-key to navigate between elements, has been available in pretty much all browsers, for a long time - however it was cumbersome. However, from MSIE 4 (1997), tabindex became available (it took some time longer before Netscape had support for tabindex) - this made it possible to produce decent navigation for web pages. Text language and direction was added in html 4 - making Hebrew (et. al.) accessible. Finally, the keypress event handler has be around in various incarnations, not long afer Javascript was added to browsers. Its not unreasonable to require web developers to acutally use it (as opposed to just relying on click
Re: [WSG] The notion of accessibility [was: Javascript Accessibility]
Matt Morgan-May wrote: Look at the Atlas project that was unveiled this week, as an example. ref? -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] The notion of accessibility [was: Javascript Accessibility]
On 3/2/09 3:15 PM, Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com wrote: Matt Morgan-May wrote: Look at the Atlas project that was unveiled this week, as an example. ref? http://www.280atlas.com/ One of the developers is actually talking about ARIA right now: http://rossboucher.com/2009/03/01/limitations-of-the-wai-aria/ - m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] The notion of accessibility [was: Javascript Accessibility]
On 3/2/09 2:02 AM, Mathew Robertson mat...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Its been possible to do ARIA style accessibility since about 1995 - its just now that people are starting to care. Matt Morgan-May matt...@adobe.com wrote: Not sure what value you were hoping to add to the conversation, but MSAA, the Windows accessibility API, didn't come out until April 1997. And that much of what ARIA has to offer is actually enabled by the IAccessible2 or User Interface Automation APIs, which are much more recent and comprehensive. ARIA is a very ambitious spec, and a number of companies contributing to its support in a very short period of time, relative to the work that's necessary. But, thanks for the cynicism! We don't get enough of that on the Internet these days. :) :) It was definitly meant as a little cynisism... I did say about 1995 - so I should have been more specific as to the actual year... so I'll expand my sentiment (it might be a little long-winded for some people...). Firstly, accessibilty is not *just* about being able to keystrokes, as its been possible to use braille devices in linux before 1995 (aka Win95 came out that year), using a serial console. Its not just about supporting disability, it also represents support for other languages, layouts, and so on. Indeed as someone quite bright wrote (I dont have a link), making applications more accessible, helps not only those that specifically need that extra help, but also those that simply make use of those features. For example: to using a serial console for text display, has been available since the first mainframes existed - so braille devices worked too. One would expect that new user interface paradigms could provide at least a similar equivalent - in browser terms, it should have been possible to navigate with keyboard and screen-reader only, and it was (albeit it was quite clunky). So one variation of accesbility, is to support multiple languages. Its easy to look back with hindsight, but it was pretty apparent that UTF8 and Unicode was the direction for accessible language support. This was available from about 1993 - the real issue here appers that software vendors chose a different path (eg: Java choosing to use double-byte characters), then became committed to it. And indeed we now see that braille support has been added to Unicode, abeit only recently - imagine the accessibility support that would currently be available, if Win95 had have support unicode natively (font rendering and keycode composition) from day dot... alt tags have been available since html 1, with its recommended practise to show blank for img's that dont mean anything. longdesc has been available since html 4 (1998). Using the tab-key to navigate between elements, has been available in pretty much all browsers, for a long time - however it was cumbersome. However, from MSIE 4 (1997), tabindex became available (it took some time longer before Netscape had support for tabindex) - this made it possible to produce decent navigation for web pages. Text language and direction was added in html 4 - making Hebrew (et. al.) accessible. Finally, the keypress event handler has be around in various incarnations, not long afer Javascript was added to browsers. Its not unreasonable to require web developers to acutally use it (as opposed to just relying on click events). So basically, the about 1995 is about right, depending on the specific technology implementation. So now a slight rant... I dont understand how: span role=aria-checkbox is better than: input type=checkbox ... ? ARIA is good in that it documents technology, based on best practise - in particular, I like how the accelerator keys are defined, but some things appears to be re-inventing stuff that doesn't need it. In fairness to the ARIA working group, I'm bound to have misunderstood the entire accessibility thing, so my opinion doesn't really matter. cheers, Mathew Robertson Note: I only speak English and I dont have a disability (except for maybe my mouth...) - I'm just confident that developers shouldn't make any assumptions about how other people interface with technology. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
