Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-17 Thread Tom Livingston
I may be missing the whole point of the original need for the WYSIWYG, 
but what about MM's
Contribute 3? It's fairly inexpensive, although stand-alone, but admin's 
can control what others can do.
Might this be of use?

Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
mlinc.com
Get FireFox >  http://spreadfirefox.com/community/?q=affiliates&id=0&t=1

Michael Kear wrote:
You're right about that Justin.  Remove some of the features!  

In fact I spent probably three quarters of my development time on the one I
use now (and have to insist users only use IE - I hate that!) on disabling
stuff.  I want to have my users able to produce nice looking content, but
within the parameters of the site design and standards.  I don't want them
able to use font tags, I don't want them PUTTING EVERYTHING IN CAPS COS ITS
BETTER THAT WAY!! (no it isn't!) or changing colours every word, or putting
text in gigantic size because they think it'll stand out against the other
content.   I want them to use only the features I want them to. 

I found a guy who makes one for ColdFusion only that has a very restricted
list of features, and it looks very promising however he has a lot more work
to do on making it function properly.  But his approach is good.  It's small
in file size, loads fast,  and doesn't have dozens of graphics that have to
download like FCKEditor does.   When he polishes it up and makes it
cross-browser compatible it's going to do me fine.
Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
.com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Justin French
Sent: Friday, 17 September 2004 2:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors
[snip]
If that's such a monumental task (it probably is), they should start by 
removing features, rather than removing support for certain browsers.

Rant over :)
---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
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RE: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-17 Thread Michael Kear
You're right about that Justin.  Remove some of the features!  

In fact I spent probably three quarters of my development time on the one I
use now (and have to insist users only use IE - I hate that!) on disabling
stuff.  I want to have my users able to produce nice looking content, but
within the parameters of the site design and standards.  I don't want them
able to use font tags, I don't want them PUTTING EVERYTHING IN CAPS COS ITS
BETTER THAT WAY!! (no it isn't!) or changing colours every word, or putting
text in gigantic size because they think it'll stand out against the other
content.   I want them to use only the features I want them to. 

I found a guy who makes one for ColdFusion only that has a very restricted
list of features, and it looks very promising however he has a lot more work
to do on making it function properly.  But his approach is good.  It's small
in file size, loads fast,  and doesn't have dozens of graphics that have to
download like FCKEditor does.   When he polishes it up and makes it
cross-browser compatible it's going to do me fine.


Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
.com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Justin French
Sent: Friday, 17 September 2004 2:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

[snip]

If that's such a monumental task (it probably is), they should start by 
removing features, rather than removing support for certain browsers.

Rant over :)

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au


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Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Justin French
On 17/09/2004, at 12:12 AM, Siteman DA - Bent Inge wrote:
Hi there!
U should really take a look at the FCKeditor, a sourceforge project.
At Siteman we use this for our CMS and it works great.
Check it out at http://www.fckeditor.net/ - it's free as well.
Doesn't work in Firefox, doesn't work in Safari, so as far as I'm 
concerned, it's no good for sites with any Mac users.  Honestly, who 
cares about the price?  I'd pay good money if someone would just "get 
it right" finally...

By "right", I mean support for IE, Opera, Mozilla family and KHTML 
family (Safari, et al) on Mac & Windows, with support for clean, 
standard, XHTML code.  No .exe files, no complex installers, no IE-only 
proprietary nonsense.

If that's such a monumental task (it probably is), they should start by 
removing features, rather than removing support for certain browsers.

Rant over :)
---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
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Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Vlad Alexander \(XStandard\)
Hi Mike,

We'll do some research on this and I'll get back to you. If anyone got some
suggestions, email me off the list - thanks.

Regards,
-Vlad


- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Kear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 10:43 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors


> G'day Vlad,
>
> Thanks for posting about your XStandard editor. I've been looking at your
> product off-and-on for a while, and never got round to getting a hold of
it
> and using it seriously.
>
> One thing worries me though ... with WIndowsXP SP2 supressing all active-X
> controls except Microsoft's, how do you get around this?
>
> I was developing a flash app the other day, and every time I went to
preview
> it on my own PC, IE blocked it and I had to click 3 places to tell IE that
I
> wanted to allow my own app to run on my own PC.
>
> Cheers
> Mike Kear
> Windsor, NSW, Australia
> AFP Webworks
> http://afpwebworks.com
> .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Vlad Alexander (XStandard)
> Sent: Thursday, 16 September 2004 10:52 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors
>
> Hi Olajide,
>
> Most of the in-browser editors mentioned are wrappers around the MSHTML
> control in IE which is just a derivative of a 5 year old version of
> FrontPage. Microsoft is no longer supporting or enhancing it. Any editors
> that have color-pickers or font-selectors do not follow best-practices in
> Web standards.
>
> Some think that if you take HTML 4 generated by WYSIWYG editors, shape,
> twist, squeeze and pull it, you get XHTML. If you want accessible and
> semantically meaningful XHTML, then generated XHTML from the get go. Check
> out this article:
> http://xstandard.com/wysiwyg/
>
> I am one of the developers of XStandard - a standards-compliant XHTML
> (Strict / 1.1) WYSIWYG editor. We offer a free version so that Web
standards
> are in reach of every developer. A Mozilla/Firefox version will be
available
> next month.
>
> Here is the link:
> http://xstandard.com
>
> Regards,
> -Vlad Alexander
> XStandard Development Team
> http://xstandard.com
>
>
>
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
> Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
>  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
> To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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RE: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Michael Kear
G'day Vlad, 

Thanks for posting about your XStandard editor. I've been looking at your
product off-and-on for a while, and never got round to getting a hold of it
and using it seriously. 

One thing worries me though ... with WIndowsXP SP2 supressing all active-X
controls except Microsoft's, how do you get around this? 

I was developing a flash app the other day, and every time I went to preview
it on my own PC, IE blocked it and I had to click 3 places to tell IE that I
wanted to allow my own app to run on my own PC. 

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
.com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Vlad Alexander (XStandard)
Sent: Thursday, 16 September 2004 10:52 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

Hi Olajide,

Most of the in-browser editors mentioned are wrappers around the MSHTML
control in IE which is just a derivative of a 5 year old version of
FrontPage. Microsoft is no longer supporting or enhancing it. Any editors
that have color-pickers or font-selectors do not follow best-practices in
Web standards.

Some think that if you take HTML 4 generated by WYSIWYG editors, shape,
twist, squeeze and pull it, you get XHTML. If you want accessible and
semantically meaningful XHTML, then generated XHTML from the get go. Check
out this article:
http://xstandard.com/wysiwyg/

I am one of the developers of XStandard - a standards-compliant XHTML
(Strict / 1.1) WYSIWYG editor. We offer a free version so that Web standards
are in reach of every developer. A Mozilla/Firefox version will be available
next month.

Here is the link:
http://xstandard.com

Regards,
-Vlad Alexander
XStandard Development Team
http://xstandard.com



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

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 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**



Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Siteman DA - Bent Inge
Hi there!

U should really take a look at the FCKeditor, a sourceforge project.
At Siteman we use this for our CMS and it works great.
Check it out at http://www.fckeditor.net/ - it's free as well.

Best regards,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Olajide Olaolorun" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 1:11 PM
Subject: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors


> Hi, I was wondering if any one knows a free WYSIWYG Editor that works
> with both IE and Firefox or Mozilla... or any other browser.
> 
> The ones I have been seeing only work with IE
> 
> Please help...
> 
> -- 
> Personal &Hobby:
> www.olajideolaolorun.com
> www.empirex.net
> 
> Business & Projects:
> www.tripleolabs.com
> www.tripleostudios.com
> www.uniformserver.com
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
>  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
> To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 
**
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Olajide Olaolorun
Thanks guys, but most of the ones I see here don't support Mozilla/Firefox...

FCK Editor looks good and it looks like they just updated it to
support Mozilla, I want something that looks good you know :) Like
Spaw... just that it is only for IE I want users to be able to
edit in any browser

Thanks...

Also DreamWeaver is not a web based WYSIWYG Editor but a program
based I needed web based ones that uses PHP and not ASP or ASP.Net
or anything like that because my server only runs PHP and not ASP\

-- 
Personal &Hobby:
www.olajideolaolorun.com
www.empirex.net

Business & Projects:
www.tripleolabs.com
www.tripleostudios.com
www.uniformserver.com
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Dylan Egan
Hi,
If you want to have some fun, try http://bitfluxeditor.org/
It's an XML WYSIWYG editor and of course only works in Mozilla, latest 
versions work best, so I suggest 1.0PR for Firefox.

Dylan.
Hi, I was wondering if any one knows a free WYSIWYG Editor that works
with both IE and Firefox or Mozilla... or any other browser.
The ones I have been seeing only work with IE
Please help...
 

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Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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RE: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Patrick Lauke
www.editize.com offers solid performance and (despite its limited support for any but 
the most common xhtml elements) value for money, if you don't mind the fact that it's 
a java applet.

Patrick

> -Original Message-
> From: Olajide Olaolorun [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 16 September 2004 12:11
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors
> 
> 
> Hi, I was wondering if any one knows a free WYSIWYG Editor that works
> with both IE and Firefox or Mozilla... or any other browser.
> 
> The ones I have been seeing only work with IE
> 
> Please help...
> 
> -- 
> Personal &Hobby:
> www.olajideolaolorun.com
> www.empirex.net
> 
> Business & Projects:
> www.tripleolabs.com
> www.tripleostudios.com
> www.uniformserver.com
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
>  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
> To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread XStandard
Hi Olajide,

Most of the in-browser editors mentioned are wrappers around the MSHTML control in IE 
which is just a derivative of a 5 year old version of FrontPage. Microsoft is no 
longer supporting or enhancing it. Any editors that have color-pickers or 
font-selectors do not follow best-practices in Web standards.

Some think that if you take HTML 4 generated by WYSIWYG editors, shape, twist, squeeze 
and pull it, you get XHTML. If you want accessible and semantically meaningful XHTML, 
then generated XHTML from the get go. Check out this article:
http://xstandard.com/wysiwyg/

I am one of the developers of XStandard - a standards-compliant XHTML (Strict / 1.1) 
WYSIWYG editor. We offer a free version so that Web standards are in reach of every 
developer. A Mozilla/Firefox version will be available next month.

Here is the link:
http://xstandard.com

Regards,
-Vlad Alexander
XStandard Development Team
http://xstandard.com



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 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Mark Harwood
Right, i would not class a TEXTAREA editor as a WYSIWYG editor, so hence my last
reply...

But for a TEXTAREA editor i would reccomend RADEditor, there was a posting a
month or so ago to the list with a very in-depth review too some of the major
ones out there.

Check the list archives for it.

Mark Harwood
---
Phunky.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk


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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Krassy
--- Olajide Olaolorun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi, I was wondering if any one knows a free WYSIWYG
> Editor that works
> with both IE and Firefox or Mozilla... or any other
> browser.

Here's a list of WYSIWYG editors out of my bookmarks
folder.

Cross-browser WYSIWYG editors:

[1] ActiveEdit
* Compatible with IE4+, Netscape 6.2+, and Mozilla
1.0+ and works with Mac OS X Safari Browser.
* Comes with built-in spell checker.
http://www.cfdev.com/activedit/

[2] Cross-browser Rich Text Editor
* Compatible with IE5+/Mozilla 1.3+/Mozilla
Firebird/Firefox 0.6.1.
* Comes with ASP/PHP/HTML demos.
* Supports multiple WYSIWYG editor instances on one
page
http://www.kevinroth.com/rte/demo.htm

[3] FCK Editor
* Compatible with IE 5+, Mozilla and Netscape
http://www.fckeditor.net/

[4] Mishoo HTMLArea
* Compatible with IE 5.5+ and Mozilla 1.3
http://dynarch.com/mishoo/htmlarea.epl

[5] InteractiveTools HTMLArea
* Compatible with IE 5.5+ (Windows)/Mozilla 1.3 (all
OS)
http://www.interactivetools.com/products/htmlarea/

[6] KUPU
* Compatible with Netscape, Mozilla and IE
http://kupu.oscom.org/


XHTML WYSIWYG Editors:

[1] Xstandard
http://www.telerik.com/Default.aspx?PageId=1586

[2] r.a.d. Editor - The granddaddy of them all. Here's
a list of only a few of the features:
* Cross-browser support - IE, Netscape, Mozilla.
* XHTML compliant.
* Find and Replace in Design- and HTML-mode.
* Spell checking with the MS Word dictionaries plus
Multilingual spell checker(19 languages).
* Easy localization through XML.
* Full table editing, Word®-like table builder.
* Document uploader (PDF, DOC, CHM, etc.)
* Enhanced image dialog, thumbnail generator
...etc. 
The list never ends.
http://www.telerik.com/Default.aspx?PageId=1586


WYSIWYG editors listing:

[1] http://www.bris.ac.uk/is/projects/cms/ttw/ttw.html
[2]
http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Internet/Authoring/HTML/WYSIWYG_Editors/


WYSIWYG editors research notes:

[1] http://www.darrelaustin.com/stuff/htmleditors.html
[2] My notes. See above :)

Good luck!

- Krassy


=
Krassy Lyakov


web: http://www.krassy.com/
blog: http://www.krassycandoit.com/blah/



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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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RE: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Michael Kear
Sorry Mark, but I don't think you're correct.  Until very recently, they
only worked on IE.  Run the page on any other browser and you either get an
error, or a plain textarea form control.

And until the day before yesterday, there wasn't any I knew of that claimed
to have XHTML support.   Except one that claimed to have XHML support and
produced all upper case tags, and allowed  to remain in the output.

And yes, Dreamweaver handles XHTML excellently.  You can load an old page
into it,  select "Convert to XHTML" on the file menu and bingo!  Valid
XHML1.0 Transitional.  A little tweaking and you have XHTML1.0Strict.


Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
.com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Harwood
Sent: Thursday, 16 September 2004 9:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors


Olajide,

You question is a bit vage, any WYSIWYG editor will work on all 
browsers depending on the markup you input!

I think your asking "which offers the best XHTML & CSS" Support?

I wouldnt know, as i thrown on using them for XHTML & CSS coding,
But Dreamweaver MX 2004 is supose to handly XHTML & CSS very well
but its still down to how well the user implements the code as too
how X-browser compatible the output will be

Mark Harwood


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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Jake Badger
I assume you mean in browser editors (rather than stand alone like DW)? 
HTML Area 3.0 is probably the best I've seen for free, and it works on 
any browser with midas support. However I don't think it enforces good 
coding, maybe you could get it to send the output  through html tidy 
after editing.

Jake
On 16/09/2004, at 9:11 PM, Olajide Olaolorun wrote:
Hi, I was wondering if any one knows a free WYSIWYG Editor that works
with both IE and Firefox or Mozilla... or any other browser.
The ones I have been seeing only work with IE
Please help...
--
Personal &Hobby:
www.olajideolaolorun.com
www.empirex.net
Business & Projects:
www.tripleolabs.com
www.tripleostudios.com
www.uniformserver.com
**
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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RE: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Michael Kear
There are some coming through now that work in Firefox too.  It's been a
problem because they use a proprietary control in IE.

Here are some you can look at: 
TinyMCE
http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/examples/example_simple.htm
http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/examples/example_advanced.htm

Dev Edit has HTML and XHTML output, and comes in flavours for .ASP, .PHP,
.NET and ColdFusion. 
www.devedit.com

There's FCKEdit, which comes in .ASP and ColdFusion (not sure about the
others)
FCKEditor Beta 2
http://www.fckeditor.net/Demo/

And of course the old tried-and-true SoEditor, now in XHTML  

SoEditor 3 alpha demos
http://www.siteobjects.com/siteobjects/soeditor3/pro/demos/ 

Actually not much to see here at the moment. Not many of the buttons are
functional. Notable is the full screen mode which unlike some other editors
stretches the layer to full screen --> _VERY_ nice!


Now all of those are free, of course, but may work out to be worth the
investment anyway.


Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
.com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Olajide Olaolorun
Sent: Thursday, 16 September 2004 9:11 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

Hi, I was wondering if any one knows a free WYSIWYG Editor that works
with both IE and Firefox or Mozilla... or any other browser.

The ones I have been seeing only work with IE

Please help...

-- 
Personal &Hobby:
www.olajideolaolorun.com
www.empirex.net


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 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
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Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Mark Harwood

Olajide,

You question is a bit vage, any WYSIWYG editor will work on all 
browsers depending on the markup you input!

I think your asking "which offers the best XHTML & CSS" Support?

I wouldnt know, as i thrown on using them for XHTML & CSS coding,
But Dreamweaver MX 2004 is supose to handly XHTML & CSS very well
but its still down to how well the user implements the code as too
how X-browser compatible the output will be

Mark Harwood
--
Phunky.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk


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The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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[WSG] WYSIWYG Editors

2004-09-16 Thread Olajide Olaolorun
Hi, I was wondering if any one knows a free WYSIWYG Editor that works
with both IE and Firefox or Mozilla... or any other browser.

The ones I have been seeing only work with IE

Please help...

-- 
Personal &Hobby:
www.olajideolaolorun.com
www.empirex.net

Business & Projects:
www.tripleolabs.com
www.tripleostudios.com
www.uniformserver.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**