Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
Please don't forget, while forking, to build a third mediocres/average list, for those who squint at being a guru and tend to forget the years they were soo newbie. or, alternatively: Raise the level of the input in this list by more quality postings and answers. The quality of the answers to a list is triggering the quality of the next questions, it's a cicle, so easy. Stop guruism. Ingo ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
Joshua Street wrote: There's a minor problem with this, though I agree with your core argument. "Newbie" posts requesting site reviews can't very easily bear a "descriptive" subject line when all they want is advice on semantics/markup and best practises. There isn't a core "problem" they want addressed, nor a core problem we as a group should seek to address. I think Subject :"Site Review Request/Help" indicates what that post is all about, and I think the help people get on this list from those posts is really helpful, even for those of us just reading them.. There is, however, scope for refinement here. If someone requests a site review and an aspect of this website is found wanting, the way in which this is discussed should not need to be confined within the original thread. I agree. For example, if the subject line was "Please review - example.com" in the initial request, and example.com used definition lists (just because everyone loves to argue about the application of those!), then it may be appropriate, when (inevitably) the scope of the discussion broadens to bear a highly tangential relation to the originally referenced website, to alter the subject line - "RE: The undefined definition list (WAS: Please review - example.com)". I'm aware this happens, though perhaps not as often as it should. I agree with this, but some lists don't. The trouble is when the thread is hijacked rather than a new sub thread is started to address the need to seperate discussion on a number of topics within the thread. I think we need to accept that some subject lines are never going to be descriptive in the way some members desire - and this isn't anyone's fault, but it is something we can work to correct as the thread of discussion progresses. Kind Regards, Joshua Street Agree, if there is this level of thoughtfulness applied, I can't see any/too many problems as long as there is a reasonable effort to make the subject line descriptive. Maybe enough said on this, at least from my part. Regards Geoff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 12:02 +1000, Jason Foss wrote: > But I don't even open "Help Needed" type subject > lines. A descriptive subject line is all that's needed; you can > quickly decide if you want to read or get involved in the thread. There's a minor problem with this, though I agree with your core argument. "Newbie" posts requesting site reviews can't very easily bear a "descriptive" subject line when all they want is advice on semantics/markup and best practises. There isn't a core "problem" they want addressed, nor a core problem we as a group should seek to address. There is, however, scope for refinement here. If someone requests a site review and an aspect of this website is found wanting, the way in which this is discussed should not need to be confined within the original thread. For example, if the subject line was "Please review - example.com" in the initial request, and example.com used definition lists (just because everyone loves to argue about the application of those!), then it may be appropriate, when (inevitably) the scope of the discussion broadens to bear a highly tangential relation to the originally referenced website, to alter the subject line - "RE: The undefined definition list (WAS: Please review - example.com)". I'm aware this happens, though perhaps not as often as it should. I think we need to accept that some subject lines are never going to be descriptive in the way some members desire - and this isn't anyone's fault, but it is something we can work to correct as the thread of discussion progresses. Kind Regards, Joshua Street base10solutions Website: http://www.base10solutions.com.au/ Phone: (02) 9898-0060 Fax: (02) 8572-6021 Mobile: 0425 808 469 Multimedia Development Agency E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded as confidential. Please do not distribute or publish any of the contents of this e-mail without the sender’s consent. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to the e-mail, and then delete the message without making copies or using it in any way. Although base10solutions takes precautions to ensure that e-mail sent from our accounts are free of viruses, we encourage recipients to undertake their own virus scan on each e-mail before opening, as base10solutions accepts no responsibility for loss or damage caused by the contents of this e-mail. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
> But I don't even open "Help Needed" type subject > lines. And I never read HTML/RTF email either. Text is too small. Rick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
On 7/11/05 4:51 PM "Lea de Groot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out: > I think the flip side is that a) newbies need to see the 'advanced' > stuff to learn by osmosis and b) its really good for gurus to see the > newbie questions (and maybe occasionally answer them? Hint, hint > people ;)) to keep them grounded. I concur. Whenever I've seen a 'newbie' list split, most if not all of the subscribers are newbies - doesn't exactly advance their science. Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
Jason Foss wrote: If I can chip in too - I don't have a problem with newbie posts, nor more advanced posts. But I don't even open "Help Needed" type subject lines. A descriptive subject line is all that's needed; you can quickly decide if you want to read or get involved in the thread. My 2c, anyway... :D Exactly Regards Geoff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
> It's a huge "Help" when the Subject line clearly defines the topic, that > way you can quickly identify threads where you may want to participate. > It also helps when browsing archives. Russ has covered this in the > intro, and most lists do, but people still persist with "Help Needed" > and equivalent vague and general subject titles. If the subjects are > titled in clear descriptive language, then a lot of these list problem > are solved, and you may more readily attract people on the list who can > contribute to that thread. > > Regards > Geoff If I can chip in too - I don't have a problem with newbie posts, nor more advanced posts. But I don't even open "Help Needed" type subject lines. A descriptive subject line is all that's needed; you can quickly decide if you want to read or get involved in the thread. My 2c, anyway... :D -- Jason Foss http://www.almost-anything.com.au http://www.waterfallweb.net Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] North Rockhampton, Queensland, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] help or web standards group?
I totally concur with Lea (which happens with amazing regularity). We have discussed this matter in the past (along with creating online fora to move some of the newbie stuff off the list) but the general consensus was that this was and still is the best way to do it to cover all levels. If you'd like to use a forum environment, take a look at the stuff over at Port80 in Perth. http://www.port80.asn.au/forums/ Let's not complain about the lower-end traffic if we're not injecting the higher-end topics ourselves. So, let's talk about XML/XSLT, SVG, what's happening with AJAX etc. (see http://www.w3.org/2005/07/05-tagmem-minutes.html#item03 for a thought starter, at least to see some of the W3 process on emergence). P > I like the concept, but my experience of multiple lists for the one > group is that posts are constantly made on the 'wrong' list, driving > everyone mad, or some of the lists simply aren't used - look at this > group. Demand drove the creation of the CMS list, but its traffic is > minimal. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
Lea de Groot wrote: On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:26:22 +1000, Richard Czeiger wrote: Perhaps there should be two lists - one for discussing standards/accessibility/best practice and one for "how do I fix my float/site check please". Having multiple lists also starts lots of flame threads on 'to which list topic X belongs'. Given the number of tech lists with large membership and large traffic, I don't think anyone has solved the problem :( I think the flip side is that a) newbies need to see the 'advanced' stuff to learn by osmosis and b) its really good for gurus to see the newbie questions (and maybe occasionally answer them? Hint, hint people ;)) to keep them grounded. warmly, Lea It's a huge "Help" when the Subject line clearly defines the topic, that way you can quickly identify threads where you may want to participate. It also helps when browsing archives. Russ has covered this in the intro, and most lists do, but people still persist with "Help Needed" and equivalent vague and general subject titles. If the subjects are titled in clear descriptive language, then a lot of these list problem are solved, and you may more readily attract people on the list who can contribute to that thread. Regards Geoff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:26:22 +1000, Richard Czeiger wrote: > Perhaps there should be two lists - one for discussing > standards/accessibility/best practice and one for "how do I fix my > float/site check please". I like the concept, but my experience of multiple lists for the one group is that posts are constantly made on the 'wrong' list, driving everyone mad, or some of the lists simply aren't used - look at this group. Demand drove the creation of the CMS list, but its traffic is minimal. Having multiple lists also starts lots of flame threads on 'to which list topic X belongs'. Given the number of tech lists with large membership and large traffic, I don't think anyone has solved the problem :( I think the flip side is that a) newbies need to see the 'advanced' stuff to learn by osmosis and b) its really good for gurus to see the newbie questions (and maybe occasionally answer them? Hint, hint people ;)) to keep them grounded. warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
I don't know, Lea... Perhaps there should be two lists - one for discussing standards/accessibility/best practice and one for "how do I fix my float/site check please". Personally, the latter tends to just fill up my Inbox, whereas I find the former really interesting and challenging Some gurus out there might be amenable to 'mentoring' newbies on the second list ... If one list were the standards/accessibility/best practice, perhaps at the end of a discussion the person how opened the topic puts together a summary, creating a Best Practice Guidelines for the topic discussed. This would be an awesome resource for beginners and advanced programmers alike. Anyway, I can understand Mike's position - sometimes it can be frustrating when you have so many people, all at different levels and with different requirements. The list membership has grown significantly (thanks to the fine efforts of the moderators and members themselves). Perhaps it's time to evolve the list? Just a thought :o) Richard - Original Message - From: "Lea de Groot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] help or web standards group? On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:30:24 +0100, Mike Whitehurst wrote: is this mailing list for anything other than helping novice designers with their hacks? This is definitely a mailing list for discussing all aspects of web standards. Any technical list is going to have a large proportion of 'newbie' questions - its just the nature of the beast. If you have a more advanced topic to discuss, please do raise it! I'm sure you will find the 'senior' members coming out of the woodwork to discuss it if it intrigues them :) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:30:24 +0100, Mike Whitehurst wrote: > is this mailing list for anything other than helping novice designers > with their hacks? This is definitely a mailing list for discussing all aspects of web standards. Any technical list is going to have a large proportion of 'newbie' questions - its just the nature of the beast. If you have a more advanced topic to discuss, please do raise it! I'm sure you will find the 'senior' members coming out of the woodwork to discuss it if it intrigues them :) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?
Mike Whitehurst wrote: is this mailing list for anything other than helping novice designers with their hacks? [EMAIL PROTECTED] is a pretty much catch-all for web/html/php/sql/asp/apache.javascript/flash help. sign up. http://www.evolt.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] help or web standards group?
is this mailing list for anything other than helping novice designers with their hacks? Mike Whitehurst www.mike-whitehurst.co.uk
