Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Rimantas Liubertas]

> Then perhaps you would care to explain why this document:
>
> http://zenpsycho.com/quirkstest2.htm
>
> activates standards mode, when the table you've linked to suggests
> that it should be in quirks mode?

Table clearly shows, that this page should activate standards mode.
It is the last line, „unrecognized doctype“.

> I would conclude that the page you've linked to does not reflect
> reality. What would you conclude?

I conclude, that "HTML (No Version Present)" means doctype like
this:



and   falls under "unrecognized !DOCTYPE"
(and is actually the only reason why html5 has doctype at all:
because unrecognized doctype triggers standards compatible mode in IE),
hence the table is accurate. Test with the versionless doctype
I gave above and see.

Regards,
Rimantas
--
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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Breton Slivka]

To counter my point and support yours though, setting a width on the P
tag also makes the elements clickable. Which does seem to suggest that
the P tag extends vertically down further than its border suggests it
does.

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Breton Slivka  wrote:
> So you think that there's an invisible part to the aragraph that is
> not outlined by the border? Kind of makes the border 1px approach to
> development kind of useless in IE in the face of behavior like this,
> don't you think? But I still don't think this idea quite matches up.
> In the broken version, try clicking on the  using the IE developer
> tools element select. You end up selecting not the P tag, which you've
> hypothesised is covering the UL. Instead you end up selecting the body
> tag.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Kepler Gelotte
>  wrote:
>>> I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've
>>> updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list,
>>> which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable,
>>> disconfirming your conclusions.
>>
>> Actually, I was agreeing with you that it is a bug.
>>
>> I still think I am correct. The aragraph is still on top of the  even
>> if it is not covering all the list elements.
>>
>> I created another version where all I did was add a "clear:both" to the
>> paragraph and now all links are clickable. You can see it here:
>> http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iefix.html
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Kepler Gelotte
>> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
>> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
>> www.neighborwebmaster.com
>> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Breton Slivka]

So you think that there's an invisible part to the aragraph that is
not outlined by the border? Kind of makes the border 1px approach to
development kind of useless in IE in the face of behavior like this,
don't you think? But I still don't think this idea quite matches up.
In the broken version, try clicking on the  using the IE developer
tools element select. You end up selecting not the P tag, which you've
hypothesised is covering the UL. Instead you end up selecting the body
tag.


On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Kepler Gelotte
 wrote:
>> I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've
>> updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list,
>> which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable,
>> disconfirming your conclusions.
>
> Actually, I was agreeing with you that it is a bug.
>
> I still think I am correct. The aragraph is still on top of the  even
> if it is not covering all the list elements.
>
> I created another version where all I did was add a "clear:both" to the
> paragraph and now all links are clickable. You can see it here:
> http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iefix.html
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Kepler Gelotte
> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
> www.neighborwebmaster.com
> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>
>
>
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RE: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Kepler Gelotte]

> I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've
> updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list,
> which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable,
> disconfirming your conclusions.

Actually, I was agreeing with you that it is a bug.

I still think I am correct. The aragraph is still on top of the  even
if it is not covering all the list elements.

I created another version where all I did was add a "clear:both" to the
paragraph and now all links are clickable. You can see it here:
http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iefix.html


Best regards,

Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Breton Slivka]

Then perhaps you would care to explain why this document:

http://zenpsycho.com/quirkstest2.htm

activates standards mode, when the table you've linked to suggests
that it should be in quirks mode?

for comparison, here's a typical html 4.0 strict doctype:

http://zenpsycho.com/quirkstest1.htm

I would conclude that the page you've linked to does not reflect
reality. What would you conclude?


On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Rimantas Liubertas  wrote:
>> I'm pretty sure the well observed and documented behavior of IE is
>> that WHICH doctype makes absolutely not a lick of difference at all.
>
> This is not correct.
>
>> The only thing it looks for is the string > of the document, which decides whether it goes into quirksmode or not.
>
> Rendering mode does depend on the doctype:
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb250395.aspx#cssenhancements_topic2
>
> <...>
>
> Regards,
> Rimantas
> --
> http://rimantas.com/
>
>
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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Rimantas Liubertas]

> I'm pretty sure the well observed and documented behavior of IE is
> that WHICH doctype makes absolutely not a lick of difference at all.

This is not correct.

> The only thing it looks for is the string  of the document, which decides whether it goes into quirksmode or not.

Rendering mode does depend on the doctype:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb250395.aspx#cssenhancements_topic2

<...>

Regards,
Rimantas
--
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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Robert Turner]

Dropping the DOCTYPE declaration appears to fix it...

Breton Slivka wrote:

I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've
updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list,
which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable,
disconfirming your conclusions.


On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Kepler Gelotte
 wrote:
  

On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of
the screen, and a "view cart" link on the right hand side which is NOT
clickable, but which should be clickable.
  

The issue does not seem to be related to standards. I cleaned up the code
and the problem persists. The cause is that the right floated "View Cart"
link does not get pushed below the aragraph. The paragraph has a width of
100% so it ends up covering the link which is why it is not clickable.

To see it more clearly, I put a version of your page with different colored
borders around each block at: http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iebug.html

If you open it in IE8 and switch between IE7 compatibility mode and back,
you will see the view cart link moving up and down.

Best regards,

Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Robert Turner]

Sorry, I misread your message, looks like this is not the problem. 
Please disregard.


Robert Turner wrote:
Try adding borders to all block level elements (ie. ,  etc). 
Firebug does this for you in Firefox, but you'll need to do it 
manually for IE. To make it much more obvious, set a background color 
too (eg. p, div {background-color: #00f;} ). If there are unclickable 
links then chances are something is covering them.


Breton Slivka wrote:

I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've
updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list,
which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable,
disconfirming your conclusions.


On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Kepler Gelotte
 wrote:
  

On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of
the screen, and a "view cart" link on the right hand side which is NOT
clickable, but which should be clickable.
  

The issue does not seem to be related to standards. I cleaned up the code
and the problem persists. The cause is that the right floated "View Cart"
link does not get pushed below the aragraph. The paragraph has a width of
100% so it ends up covering the link which is why it is not clickable.

To see it more clearly, I put a version of your page with different colored
borders around each block at: http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iebug.html

If you open it in IE8 and switch between IE7 compatibility mode and back,
you will see the view cart link moving up and down.

Best regards,

Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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www. f l e x a d a t a .com 

*+1 415 448 7652*
*+61 7 3040 1337*






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www. f l e x a d a t a .com 

*+1 415 448 7652*
*+61 7 3040 1337*





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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Robert Turner]

Try adding borders to all block level elements (ie. ,  etc). 
Firebug does this for you in Firefox, but you'll need to do it manually 
for IE. To make it much more obvious, set a background color too (eg. p, 
div {background-color: #00f;} ). If there are unclickable links then 
chances are something is covering them.


Breton Slivka wrote:

I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've
updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list,
which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable,
disconfirming your conclusions.


On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Kepler Gelotte
 wrote:
  

On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of
the screen, and a "view cart" link on the right hand side which is NOT
clickable, but which should be clickable.
  

The issue does not seem to be related to standards. I cleaned up the code
and the problem persists. The cause is that the right floated "View Cart"
link does not get pushed below the aragraph. The paragraph has a width of
100% so it ends up covering the link which is why it is not clickable.

To see it more clearly, I put a version of your page with different colored
borders around each block at: http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iebug.html

If you open it in IE8 and switch between IE7 compatibility mode and back,
you will see the view cart link moving up and down.

Best regards,

Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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*+1 415 448 7652*
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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Breton Slivka]

I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've
updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list,
which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable,
disconfirming your conclusions.


On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Kepler Gelotte
 wrote:
>> On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of
>> the screen, and a "view cart" link on the right hand side which is NOT
>> clickable, but which should be clickable.
>
> The issue does not seem to be related to standards. I cleaned up the code
> and the problem persists. The cause is that the right floated "View Cart"
> link does not get pushed below the aragraph. The paragraph has a width of
> 100% so it ends up covering the link which is why it is not clickable.
>
> To see it more clearly, I put a version of your page with different colored
> borders around each block at: http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iebug.html
>
> If you open it in IE8 and switch between IE7 compatibility mode and back,
> you will see the view cart link moving up and down.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Kepler Gelotte
> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
> www.neighborwebmaster.com
> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>
>
>
> ***
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RE: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Kepler Gelotte]

> On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of
> the screen, and a "view cart" link on the right hand side which is NOT
> clickable, but which should be clickable.

The issue does not seem to be related to standards. I cleaned up the code
and the problem persists. The cause is that the right floated "View Cart"
link does not get pushed below the aragraph. The paragraph has a width of
100% so it ends up covering the link which is why it is not clickable.

To see it more clearly, I put a version of your page with different colored
borders around each block at: http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iebug.html

If you open it in IE8 and switch between IE7 compatibility mode and back,
you will see the view cart link moving up and down.

Best regards,

Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Breton Slivka]

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Joseph Taylor  wrote:
> I took a look at your source code - there are a whole bunch of issues
> beginning with oddities in your HTML - things like:
>
>  "http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd";>
> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";>
>
> Your saying the DocType is HTML 4.01 Transitional, but then you're linking
> to the XHTML namespace - that's probably confusing IE right from the get go.
> Using Transitional DocTypes also pisses IE off.
>
> 
>
> Weird spacees in your tags? That's begging for IE weirdness.
>
> Try starting with perfect HTML that's of the Strict DocType whether it's
> HTML or XHTML.



I'm pretty sure the well observed and documented behavior of IE is
that WHICH doctype makes absolutely not a lick of difference at all.
The only thing it looks for is the string http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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RE: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Steve Green]

Actually he won't see a bug free site at all. Correcting the doctype and
other issues makes no difference.

The bug does not occur in Internet Explorer 6. Something like this has been
reported previously but the only references I can find are not directly
applicable to this situation.

http://foorider.blogspot.com/2007/09/css-ie7-float-italic-background.html

http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/italicbug-ie.html

Steve


  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Essential eBiz Solutions
Sent: 04 June 2009 02:57
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.


Joe is right, you got alot of tags unclosed and you're switch from HTML to
XHTML style tags. Pick one, and use the validator!
You'll see a pretty much bug free site in no time.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Joseph Taylor
Sent: 04 June 2009 02:38
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.


I took a look at your source code - there are a whole bunch of issues
beginning with oddities in your HTML - things like:

http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd";
<http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd> >
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";
<http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml> >

Your saying the DocType is HTML 4.01 Transitional, but then you're linking
to the XHTML namespace - that's probably confusing IE right from the get go.
Using Transitional DocTypes also pisses IE off.



Weird spacees in your tags? That's begging for IE weirdness.

Try starting with perfect HTML that's of the Strict DocType whether it's
HTML or XHTML. 


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer / Developer
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
"Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design"
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 6/3/09 9:14 PM, Breton Slivka wrote: 

I have a stripped down example of it here. The bug only occurs in IE

7, and possibly ie6, and it occurs in IE8 running in compatibility

mode. I cannot be sure whether it happens in IE8 in IE8 mode or not.

(MS have made the compatibility mode interface so bloody complex I

can't figure out whether I'm in it or not at any given time).



The example is here:



http://zenpsycho.com/iebug.htm



On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of

the screen, and a "view cart" link on the right hand side which is NOT

clickable, but which should be clickable.



The ingredients of this bug appear to be:

* a left floated element followed by

* an italic styled element nested directly inside a p tag, which are

both preceded by

* a "menu" with links that are floated to the right



Combine these things together, and the right hand side of the screen

becomes unclickable. (you can have a huge column of links on the right

hand side, and they're all useless). What really bothers me about this

one, is that the spell is mysteriously broken (the bug goes away) if

you change this:



v 



to this:



v  



Just what on earth is going on here?





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RE: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Essential eBiz Solutions]

Joe is right, you got alot of tags unclosed and you're switch from HTML to
XHTML style tags. Pick one, and use the validator!
You'll see a pretty much bug free site in no time.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Joseph Taylor
Sent: 04 June 2009 02:38
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.


I took a look at your source code - there are a whole bunch of issues
beginning with oddities in your HTML - things like:

http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd";
<http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd> >
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";
<http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml> >

Your saying the DocType is HTML 4.01 Transitional, but then you're linking
to the XHTML namespace - that's probably confusing IE right from the get go.
Using Transitional DocTypes also pisses IE off.



Weird spacees in your tags? That's begging for IE weirdness.

Try starting with perfect HTML that's of the Strict DocType whether it's
HTML or XHTML. 


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer / Developer
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
"Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design"
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 6/3/09 9:14 PM, Breton Slivka wrote: 

I have a stripped down example of it here. The bug only occurs in IE

7, and possibly ie6, and it occurs in IE8 running in compatibility

mode. I cannot be sure whether it happens in IE8 in IE8 mode or not.

(MS have made the compatibility mode interface so bloody complex I

can't figure out whether I'm in it or not at any given time).



The example is here:



http://zenpsycho.com/iebug.htm



On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of

the screen, and a "view cart" link on the right hand side which is NOT

clickable, but which should be clickable.



The ingredients of this bug appear to be:

* a left floated element followed by

* an italic styled element nested directly inside a p tag, which are

both preceded by

* a "menu" with links that are floated to the right



Combine these things together, and the right hand side of the screen

becomes unclickable. (you can have a huge column of links on the right

hand side, and they're all useless). What really bothers me about this

one, is that the spell is mysteriously broken (the bug goes away) if

you change this:



v 



to this:



v  



Just what on earth is going on here?





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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Joseph Taylor]

I took a look at your source code - there are a whole bunch of issues 
beginning with oddities in your HTML - things like:


"http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd";>

http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";>

Your saying the DocType is HTML 4.01 Transitional, but then you're 
linking to the XHTML namespace - that's probably confusing IE right from 
the get go. Using Transitional DocTypes also pisses IE off.




Weird spacees in your tags? That's begging for IE weirdness.

Try starting with perfect HTML that's of the Strict DocType whether it's 
HTML or XHTML.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/"Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design"/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 6/3/09 9:14 PM, Breton Slivka wrote:

I have a stripped down example of it here. The bug only occurs in IE
7, and possibly ie6, and it occurs in IE8 running in compatibility
mode. I cannot be sure whether it happens in IE8 in IE8 mode or not.
(MS have made the compatibility mode interface so bloody complex I
can't figure out whether I'm in it or not at any given time).

The example is here:

http://zenpsycho.com/iebug.htm

On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of
the screen, and a "view cart" link on the right hand side which is NOT
clickable, but which should be clickable.

The ingredients of this bug appear to be:
* a left floated element followed by
* an italic styled element nested directly inside a p tag, which are
both preceded by
* a "menu" with links that are floated to the right

Combine these things together, and the right hand side of the screen
becomes unclickable. (you can have a huge column of links on the right
hand side, and they're all useless). What really bothers me about this
one, is that the spell is mysteriously broken (the bug goes away) if
you change this:

v

to this:

v 

Just what on earth is going on here?


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