RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index

2004-07-29 Thread Ted Drake
I'm glad to see my question about access keys and tab index has garnered some serious 
discusstion.  As a result.  I'm going to implement a small set of access keys targeted 
to a particular subset of our audience that could use them.  I'm going to use 1, 2, 
and 3 for the three most important pages that they go to and I will skip the others 
that might be used by the general population. 
The particular audience that I am talking about are travel agents and they even have 
their own section of the web site for their particular needs, so I feel I can afford 
to set aside these three keys for their use.

Thank you for your thoughtful information.
Ted Drake
CSA Travel Protection
www.csatravelprotection (the current site is horribly non-standard, hopefully the new 
one will launch soon)

-Original Message-
From: Geoff Deering [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 5:14 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index


If find yourself in the accesskey bog, and you are trying to make your site
WAI-AAA compliant, I would do what the W3C did back in 1999 on the WAI home
page (http://www.w3.org/WAI/).

They had a WAI-AAA logo on their main page, but with all the links, the only
accesskey was a hidden "c" to access the Contents menu.  So if they are
setting the example, then just put an accesskey to "Skip navigation" or
whatever, then that seems good enough to meet this compliance check.

I know it is not promoting best of practice by our standards, but that was
the W3C WAI site back then, setting the example, so why not use something
simple like this if you are doing your best in all the other compliance
checks.

I say this because those who are making this much of an effort are making a
HUGE effort to make their pages as accessible as possible.

My point with Accessibility and Standards is always the ROI, and people on
this list, I feel, understand that.  But to be frank, the ROI (currently) in
accesskeys, has little ROI for the developer and user, except maybe for
forms, and used sparingly.

I do expect others to maybe do it better or smarter, because there is always
someone showing the way on how to do these things better.

Because they have become such an issue over the last year or so, and this
problem has been given more attention, maybe they will evolve in a less
muddle way.

Geoff

> -Original Message-
> From: Laura Carlson
> Sent: Thursday, 29 July 2004 6:24 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index
>
>
> > For those of you that have put together a chart of access keys
> > for your sitewide navigation, do you have any good suggestions?
>
>  From what I have gathered best practice is that IF accesskeys are used:
>
> - Always supply a legend that defines the accesskeys.
> - Make sure this legend is on or available from every page on the
> site...perhaps in an accessibility statement.
> - Supply title attributes on any accesskeys used.
> - Keep the number of accesskeys to a minimum.
>
> I agree with Geoff. Because of the many conflicts, defining accesskeys
> seem to be a waste of time unless you are designing for a controlled
> environment such as an intranet.
>
> In Joe Clark's Book, "Building Accessible Websites", New Riders
> Publishing, 2002, he suggests that there are at least 36 characters
> that can be used for accesskey attribute.
>
> However, as pointed out previously, John Foliot and Derek
> Featherstone's unofficial survey/research concluded that there really
> were no useful access keys not already reserved by some application or
> other. When you take internationalization issues into account, it
> becomes pretty much of a hopeless cause.
>
> For more details from John Foliot and Derek Featherstone's study visit:
>
> - Accesskeys and Reserved Keystroke Combinations
> http://www.wats.ca/resources/accesskeysandkeystrokes/38
>
> - Using Accesskeys - Is it worth it?
> http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeys/19
>
> - More reasons why we don't use accesskeys
> http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37
>
> Also:
>
> - I Do Not Use Accesskeys by Dave Shea.
>
> http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/12/29/i_do_not_use/index.php
>
> Laura
> ___
> Laura L. Carlson
> Information Technology Systems and Services
> University of Minnesota Duluth
> Duluth, MN  55812-3009
> http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> 

RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index

2004-07-28 Thread Geoff Deering
If find yourself in the accesskey bog, and you are trying to make your site
WAI-AAA compliant, I would do what the W3C did back in 1999 on the WAI home
page (http://www.w3.org/WAI/).

They had a WAI-AAA logo on their main page, but with all the links, the only
accesskey was a hidden "c" to access the Contents menu.  So if they are
setting the example, then just put an accesskey to "Skip navigation" or
whatever, then that seems good enough to meet this compliance check.

I know it is not promoting best of practice by our standards, but that was
the W3C WAI site back then, setting the example, so why not use something
simple like this if you are doing your best in all the other compliance
checks.

I say this because those who are making this much of an effort are making a
HUGE effort to make their pages as accessible as possible.

My point with Accessibility and Standards is always the ROI, and people on
this list, I feel, understand that.  But to be frank, the ROI (currently) in
accesskeys, has little ROI for the developer and user, except maybe for
forms, and used sparingly.

I do expect others to maybe do it better or smarter, because there is always
someone showing the way on how to do these things better.

Because they have become such an issue over the last year or so, and this
problem has been given more attention, maybe they will evolve in a less
muddle way.

Geoff

> -Original Message-
> From: Laura Carlson
> Sent: Thursday, 29 July 2004 6:24 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index
>
>
> > For those of you that have put together a chart of access keys
> > for your sitewide navigation, do you have any good suggestions?
>
>  From what I have gathered best practice is that IF accesskeys are used:
>
> - Always supply a legend that defines the accesskeys.
> - Make sure this legend is on or available from every page on the
> site...perhaps in an accessibility statement.
> - Supply title attributes on any accesskeys used.
> - Keep the number of accesskeys to a minimum.
>
> I agree with Geoff. Because of the many conflicts, defining accesskeys
> seem to be a waste of time unless you are designing for a controlled
> environment such as an intranet.
>
> In Joe Clark's Book, "Building Accessible Websites", New Riders
> Publishing, 2002, he suggests that there are at least 36 characters
> that can be used for accesskey attribute.
>
> However, as pointed out previously, John Foliot and Derek
> Featherstone's unofficial survey/research concluded that there really
> were no useful access keys not already reserved by some application or
> other. When you take internationalization issues into account, it
> becomes pretty much of a hopeless cause.
>
> For more details from John Foliot and Derek Featherstone's study visit:
>
> - Accesskeys and Reserved Keystroke Combinations
> http://www.wats.ca/resources/accesskeysandkeystrokes/38
>
> - Using Accesskeys - Is it worth it?
> http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeys/19
>
> - More reasons why we don't use accesskeys
> http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37
>
> Also:
>
> - I Do Not Use Accesskeys by Dave Shea.
>
> http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/12/29/i_do_not_use/index.php
>
> Laura
> ___
> Laura L. Carlson
> Information Technology Systems and Services
> University of Minnesota Duluth
> Duluth, MN  55812-3009
> http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> *
>
>
>

*
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 



RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index

2004-07-28 Thread Laura Carlson
For those of you that have put together a chart of access keys
for your sitewide navigation, do you have any good suggestions?
From what I have gathered best practice is that IF accesskeys are used:
- Always supply a legend that defines the accesskeys.
- Make sure this legend is on or available from every page on the 
site...perhaps in an accessibility statement.
- Supply title attributes on any accesskeys used.
- Keep the number of accesskeys to a minimum.

I agree with Geoff. Because of the many conflicts, defining accesskeys 
seem to be a waste of time unless you are designing for a controlled 
environment such as an intranet.

In Joe Clark's Book, "Building Accessible Websites", New Riders 
Publishing, 2002, he suggests that there are at least 36 characters 
that can be used for accesskey attribute.

However, as pointed out previously, John Foliot and Derek 
Featherstone's unofficial survey/research concluded that there really 
were no useful access keys not already reserved by some application or 
other. When you take internationalization issues into account, it 
becomes pretty much of a hopeless cause.

For more details from John Foliot and Derek Featherstone's study visit:
- Accesskeys and Reserved Keystroke Combinations
http://www.wats.ca/resources/accesskeysandkeystrokes/38
- Using Accesskeys - Is it worth it?
http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeys/19
- More reasons why we don't use accesskeys
http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37
Also:
- I Do Not Use Accesskeys by Dave Shea.
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/12/29/i_do_not_use/index.php
Laura
___
Laura L. Carlson
Information Technology Systems and Services
University of Minnesota Duluth
Duluth, MN  55812-3009
http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 



RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index

2004-07-27 Thread Geoff Deering
Hi Barrie,

I agree with what you are saying, but the problems accesskeys cause is too
much of a headache for the time invested.

How have you assigned your keys?  Do they clash with default hot keys of the
major screen reading user agents?  Have you gone through all this carefully?
What about the problems users have distinguishing between when the browser
toolbar or the canvas has the focus?  This can lead to triggering tool
events rather than onscreen events when common keys are used?

Have you run a thorough testing suite on these designs, or is your design
based on best of intention?  I'm not being critical, but a lot of us have
built great stuff, standard compliant, only to find out it screws up
something terrible in the real world.

One of the big problems is that the WCAG-GL never researched this properly
and recommended a set of standard keys (to my knowledge), thus everyone went
their own way.  I'm not condemning the people that developed WCAG, they did
a great job, but this particular area did not evolve into the fantastic
feature it was meant to be.  They tried to work with user agents in this
area, but everyone had their own agenda.

If you are using key listeners that is different, but it opens up a
different set of areas that need to be addressed.

Tab indexes are something different, and that pretty much has a standard set
of behaviours across application software and the web.

If your usability testing has confirmed your design, then you have a
successful implementation, and I hope you can share that with us, because we
all need to see ways to implement these things that aid users and don't
hinder them.

Geoff


> -Original Message-
> From: Of Barry Beattie
>
>
> >> They are used to seeing this type of thing in application software,
> but not on the web.
>
>
> Geoff, from where I sit, I'd have to disagree.
>
> people are wanting more out of the web.
>
> clients are demanding more functionality in web development than just
> stuff to read and look pretty.
>
> F'instance we're currently re-writing a legacy client/server app for the
> web (in ColdFusion but we all wish we could afford Flex 'cos this would
> be so much easier).
>
> because of this, we have key listeners and tab indexes everywhere.
> Almost all of the app is made up of forms and reports. Because they are
> familiar to a windows environment, this has become a defacto standard.
>
> the apps' user base starts from office workers (with some computer
> skills) thru to teachers, students (as young as 8yo) and parents (with
> diminishing computing skills).
>
> it's a pain in the backside but it has to be done
>
> just my 2c worth
> barry.b
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Deering [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2004 12:23 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index
>
> I agree with what Derek says, and he sums it up nicely.
>
> I have been using accesskeys since WCAG1 came out mid 99, and can cause
> more
> usability problems that provides ease of accessibility.  I even use
> 
> to underline the key letter to indicate the access key, which is the
> standard way to show an access key, and the feedback I got was that most
> people think there is some sort of browser display problem when they see
> it.
> They are used to seeing this type of thing in application software, but
> not
> on the web.  In cases like this, when I get this type of feedback, I
> think
> users are right, because it ends up being too foreign an interface for
> them
> when deployed rarely, then on top of that, you have the erratic
> behaviour.
> If they associate erratic behaviour with your web site, then what
> impression
> are you giving (... those crazy accessibility people:-)).
>
> It also seems that users require accesskeys and use them in different
> ways
> on the web than are used by applications software.  In applications
> software
> it is mainly used for hotkeys and navigation, whereas it seems that most
> users requiring them for accessibility would prefer that they be
> designated
> for prime operations, ie form navigation rather than site navigation.
>
> I'm not saying there is anything bad about accesskeys or the idea behind
> them, but the way they have been implemented by user agents ... (and
> also us
> designers) has created a bit of a mess.  It's a pity.
>
> I still use them, but more and more sparingly.  Mainly for forms.  But I
> think this is a good idea that has to evolve somehow before it becomes
> reasonably usable.  But maybe the implementation is just not suited to
> the
> web.
>
> Geoff
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index

2004-07-27 Thread Barry Beattie

>> They are used to seeing this type of thing in application software,
but not on the web.


Geoff, from where I sit, I'd have to disagree. 

people are wanting more out of the web. 

clients are demanding more functionality in web development than just
stuff to read and look pretty.

F'instance we're currently re-writing a legacy client/server app for the
web (in ColdFusion but we all wish we could afford Flex 'cos this would
be so much easier).

because of this, we have key listeners and tab indexes everywhere.
Almost all of the app is made up of forms and reports. Because they are
familiar to a windows environment, this has become a defacto standard. 

the apps' user base starts from office workers (with some computer
skills) thru to teachers, students (as young as 8yo) and parents (with
diminishing computing skills). 

it's a pain in the backside but it has to be done

just my 2c worth
barry.b

-Original Message-
From: Geoff Deering [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2004 12:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index

I agree with what Derek says, and he sums it up nicely.

I have been using accesskeys since WCAG1 came out mid 99, and can cause
more
usability problems that provides ease of accessibility.  I even use

to underline the key letter to indicate the access key, which is the
standard way to show an access key, and the feedback I got was that most
people think there is some sort of browser display problem when they see
it.
They are used to seeing this type of thing in application software, but
not
on the web.  In cases like this, when I get this type of feedback, I
think
users are right, because it ends up being too foreign an interface for
them
when deployed rarely, then on top of that, you have the erratic
behaviour.
If they associate erratic behaviour with your web site, then what
impression
are you giving (... those crazy accessibility people:-)).

It also seems that users require accesskeys and use them in different
ways
on the web than are used by applications software.  In applications
software
it is mainly used for hotkeys and navigation, whereas it seems that most
users requiring them for accessibility would prefer that they be
designated
for prime operations, ie form navigation rather than site navigation.

I'm not saying there is anything bad about accesskeys or the idea behind
them, but the way they have been implemented by user agents ... (and
also us
designers) has created a bit of a mess.  It's a pity.

I still use them, but more and more sparingly.  Mainly for forms.  But I
think this is a good idea that has to evolve somehow before it becomes
reasonably usable.  But maybe the implementation is just not suited to
the
web.

Geoff

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2004 9:44 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] access keys and tab index
>
>
>
> Hi ted,
> recommend you read (if you haven't already) this article
>
> More reasons why we don't use accesskeys:
> http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37
>
>

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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*



RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index

2004-07-27 Thread Geoff Deering
I agree with what Derek says, and he sums it up nicely.

I have been using accesskeys since WCAG1 came out mid 99, and can cause more
usability problems that provides ease of accessibility.  I even use 
to underline the key letter to indicate the access key, which is the
standard way to show an access key, and the feedback I got was that most
people think there is some sort of browser display problem when they see it.
They are used to seeing this type of thing in application software, but not
on the web.  In cases like this, when I get this type of feedback, I think
users are right, because it ends up being too foreign an interface for them
when deployed rarely, then on top of that, you have the erratic behaviour.
If they associate erratic behaviour with your web site, then what impression
are you giving (... those crazy accessibility people:-)).

It also seems that users require accesskeys and use them in different ways
on the web than are used by applications software.  In applications software
it is mainly used for hotkeys and navigation, whereas it seems that most
users requiring them for accessibility would prefer that they be designated
for prime operations, ie form navigation rather than site navigation.

I'm not saying there is anything bad about accesskeys or the idea behind
them, but the way they have been implemented by user agents ... (and also us
designers) has created a bit of a mess.  It's a pity.

I still use them, but more and more sparingly.  Mainly for forms.  But I
think this is a good idea that has to evolve somehow before it becomes
reasonably usable.  But maybe the implementation is just not suited to the
web.

Geoff

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2004 9:44 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] access keys and tab index
>
>
>
> Hi ted,
> recommend you read (if you haven't already) this article
>
> More reasons why we don't use accesskeys:
> http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37
>
>

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Re: [WSG] access keys and tab index

2004-07-27 Thread Steven . Faulkner

Hi ted,
recommend you read (if you haven't already) this article

More reasons why we don't use accesskeys:
http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37



with regards

Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
National Information & Library Service (NILS)
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

National Information Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.




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Re: [WSG] access keys and tab index

2004-07-27 Thread James Ellis
Hi Ted
I've steered clear of access keys as they cause some problems on Safari 
etc. After seeing a screen reader in action at a previous WSG meeting in 
Sydney there are some much better ways it has to directly access content 
on a page (e.g list links, list headings etc).

Cheers
James
Ted Drake wrote:
Here is that list.
Listed below is the recommended UK Government accesskeys standard: 

S - Skip navigation
1 - Home page 
2 - What's new 
3 - Site map 
4 - Search 
5 - Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) 
6 - Help 
7 - Complaints procedure 
8 - Terms and conditions 
9 - Feedback form 
0 - Access key details 

I think it's rather ironic that the access keys don't work on the page that lists them.
Ted
-Original Message-
From: Owen Gregory [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 8:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index
Ted Drake wrote:
 

For those of you that have put together a chart of access keys for your sitewide
navigation, do you have any good suggestions?  Has anyone written a good story on
the approach and maybe even listed a set of default access keys to keep the web fairly
universal?
   

Hi Ted
You can find what Joe Clark has to say on the subject here: 
http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter08.html#h2-3090
I design within the public sector and so use the UK government guidelines:
http://e-government.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/Resources/WebGuidelinesArticle/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=419&chk=C7zlV4.
 Somewhere in there is a list of suggested accesskeys.
As an example, here's the URL to the Equal Web site I'm responsible for: 
http://www.equal.ecotec.co.uk/access/
Hope that's a start.
Owen

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RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index

2004-07-27 Thread Ted Drake
Here is that list.
Listed below is the recommended UK Government accesskeys standard: 

S - Skip navigation
1 - Home page 
2 - What's new 
3 - Site map 
4 - Search 
5 - Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) 
6 - Help 
7 - Complaints procedure 
8 - Terms and conditions 
9 - Feedback form 
0 - Access key details 

I think it's rather ironic that the access keys don't work on the page that lists them.
Ted


-Original Message-
From: Owen Gregory [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 8:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index


Ted Drake wrote:

> For those of you that have put together a chart of access keys for your sitewide
> navigation, do you have any good suggestions?  Has anyone written a good story on
> the approach and maybe even listed a set of default access keys to keep the web 
> fairly
> universal?

Hi Ted

You can find what Joe Clark has to say on the subject here: 
http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter08.html#h2-3090

I design within the public sector and so use the UK government guidelines:
http://e-government.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/Resources/WebGuidelinesArticle/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=419&chk=C7zlV4.
 Somewhere in there is a list of suggested accesskeys.

As an example, here's the URL to the Equal Web site I'm responsible for: 
http://www.equal.ecotec.co.uk/access/

Hope that's a start.

Owen



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The information contained in this communication is confidential and may be legally 
privileged.  It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it 
is addressed and others authorised to receive it.  If you are not the intended 
recipient you should not disclose, copy, distribute or take action on the contents of 
this information, except for the purpose of delivery to the addressee.  Any 
unauthorised use is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received 
this email in error please notify the sender by email immediately and delete the 
message from your computer.

ECOTEC Research & Consulting Limited
Registered in England No. 1650169 Registered Office:
Priestley House, 28-34 Albert Street, Birmingham, B4 7UD, UK
Tel: +44 (0)121 616 3600
http://www.ecotec.com

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Re: [WSG] access keys and tab index

2004-07-27 Thread Kim Kruse
Hi Ted,
After looking at numerous articles about accesskeys I came to the 
conclusion that accesskeys are more bad than good. The only accesskey I 
use on my site is "s" for skip navigation  (pretty much universal). 
Anyway this article explains it pretty good 
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/12/29/i_do_not_use/

Kim
Ted Drake wrote:
I just had an appointment reminder pop-up on my outlook.  Today is the day that I'm 
supposed to put together a list of access keys to use on our web site and the tab 
index on our forms.  For those of you that have put together a chart of access keys 
for your sitewide navigation, do you have any good suggestions?  Has anyone written a 
good story on the approach and maybe even listed a set of default access keys to keep 
the web fairly universal?
Thanks for the help to this plaintive cry for help.
By the way, I just finished combining sliding doors with a big ol' sprite that 
includes all of my site's navigation and background elements. I haven't fine-tuned it 
but will post it when it's done.  The sticking point is the right side of the tab when 
I can't use 100% as the right side.  If you've done sliding doors ala alistapart, this 
ramble may make some sense.
Ted
www.superiorpixelw.com
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--
Med venlig hilsen
Mouseriders.dk
Kim K Jonsson

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RE: [WSG] access keys and tab index

2004-07-27 Thread Owen Gregory
Ted Drake wrote:

> For those of you that have put together a chart of access keys for your sitewide
> navigation, do you have any good suggestions?  Has anyone written a good story on
> the approach and maybe even listed a set of default access keys to keep the web 
> fairly
> universal?

Hi Ted

You can find what Joe Clark has to say on the subject here: 
http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter08.html#h2-3090

I design within the public sector and so use the UK government guidelines:
http://e-government.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/Resources/WebGuidelinesArticle/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=419&chk=C7zlV4.
 Somewhere in there is a list of suggested accesskeys.

As an example, here's the URL to the Equal Web site I'm responsible for: 
http://www.equal.ecotec.co.uk/access/

Hope that's a start.

Owen



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