Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:34:35 +0930, Katrina wrote: May I ask you which college/uni teaches web development? I believe Craig is a TAFE student in Brisbane, but I could be mistaken. warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
On 10/12/05, Craig Rippon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Genuine question: Is this because they visit, it doesn't work, and they don't come back, forever losing them as a customer? Probably not. Linux users tend to be running either a Gecko-based browser (Mozilla, Firefox, Galeon and Epiphany being the most popular) or Konqueror, and due to the ease of keeping applications at the latest versions on most modern Linux distributions, they tend to be running recent versions. BrowserCam's installation of Konqueror (and most other Linux browsers) is a version that's nearly three years old, so out-of-date that I'm surprised they continue to offer it. Since Gecko-based browsers render (nearly) identically on all platforms, there's no need to worry on that count, and recent versions of Konqueror have made a number of improvements to KHTML as well as rolling in fixes and updates from Apple, which means that Konqueror's rendering is very close to Safari's for most purposes -- enough so that I use Konqueror as a poor man's Mac at times. And the converse is true; if, like many designers, you have access to a Mac, you can use Safari as an indicator of your compatibility with Konqueror. And for what it's worth, the site mentioned above renders as expected for me in Firefox 1.0.7 and Konqueror 3.4.0, and those are the latest versions available for the Linux distribution I use. -- May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -- George Carlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
On 10/12/05, Paul Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but there should be something similar which uses the KDE desktop. Knoppix uses KDE from (rather rusty) memory http://www.Knoppix.org It does. There's also a KDE version of Ubuntu called Kubuntu: http://kubuntu.org/ -- May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -- George Carlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Cross platform weirdness in FF WAS Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 03:16 -0400, James Bennett wrote: Since Gecko-based browsers render (nearly) identically on all platforms, there's no need to worry on that count snip I thought I'd take this opportunity to hijack a thread and ask about a weird problem I've been having with Firefox on Windows vs. Firefox on Linux. Both running 1.0.7, both with Chris Pederick's Web Dev toolbar installed. I haven't got access to a Mac with Firefox, but it's possible that'd render in a similarly incongruous fashion. The site in question is at http://www.joahua.com/rawideasmakeover/ - not mine, I redid it to prove a point re: web standards to someone - and the rendering inconsistency is in the height of the Hosting services div: div class=short h3// hosting services/h3 img src=gfx/home_hosting.jpg alt= / pCompetitive hosting for your site with multiple redundancies, regular back ups and problem resolution to keep your business online./p pa href= class=more// more/a/p /div being the source. (Yeah, markup isn't pristine, but I was in a hurry.) That div _should_ extend far enough down to make its right border appear to be shared between the two cells... which it does in Firefox/Lin without any dramas. Scale text up and down, it copes fine, no breakages. Back over to Windows, however, and the event services cell appears to move upwards, and the right border doesn't extend far enough down anymore. I suspect this has something to do with fonts... font: 1em/1.1em Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; is what's in use. I just discovered I can break the layout in a similar fashion by forcing Verdana (btw, the font family I'm using is just based on the existing site: to those who care about nice typography, it's not my fault!)... but why would Win/Firefox use Verdana over Arial (both are installed)? For the record, IE/Win renders correctly (in the desired fashion, that is), as does Opera/Lin and Konqueror/Lin. Is this a bug? Any ideas? Slightly perlexed, Josh -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
1) Is it acceptable to go live with a layout that doesn't work with either of these two browsers? (I notice that a number of prominent web standardista websites have done so) Define doesn't work? [I don't have those browsers to hand] If it doesn't work in the sense that some of the content is invisible or illegible, links aren't clickable etc, then I don't think I'd say it was acceptable. If, on the other hand, it just doesn't look as intended, and you've got valid standards HTML, then your conscience is clear. Fix the display in those browsers if and when you can. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 8333 3488 Developer, ABC Kids Onlinehttp://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
On 10/13/05, Ian Fenn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a lovely new em-based page on Chinese food that works fine in practically everything apart from Netscape 6.2 and Konqueror 3.05. 1) Is it acceptable to go live with a layout that doesn't work with either of these two browsers? (I notice that a number of prominent web standardista websites have done so) Netscape 6 was based on a beta version of the Mozilla rendering engine - I forget which one exactly, but pre 1.0 - and for this reason it's hard to support. Considering that Netscape is up to version 8 now, I would not include this browser in my support profile (thanks to Eric Meyer's WE05 presentation for introducing me to this term!). I can't comment on Konqueror - I don't test in that browser, and the market share of Linux in general in my own web site stats is next to nil. I like the design, by the way - very tasty! I especially like the favicon - nice touch. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.zombiecoder.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
John wrote: Define doesn't work? [I don't have those browsers to hand] If it doesn't work in the sense that some of the content is invisible or illegible, links aren't clickable etc, then I don't think I'd say it was acceptable. Sorry for being unclear. The page is pretty broken with overlaid content. You can see my browsercam output at http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=198424 If, on the other hand, it just doesn't look as intended, and you've got valid standards HTML, then your conscience is clear. Fix the display in those browsers if and when you can. If only I knew where to start... It's taken me all evening to fix IE5.2 on the mac... The scent as to what's wrong isn't so strong with Netscape 6.2 and Konquerer. :-( I also need to solve an odd spacing issue with IE5.0 first :-/ All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
and the market share of Linux in general in my own web site stats is next to nil. Genuine question: Is this because they visit, it doesn't work, and they don't come back, forever losing them as a customer? Craig Rippon Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Sorry for being unclear. The page is pretty broken with overlaid content. You can see my browsercam output at http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=198424 Got it. Yes, pretty broken! Fix the display in those browsers if and when you can. If only I knew where to start... It's taken me all evening to fix IE5.2 on the mac... I personally would include in fix the display anything which leaves those browsers with legible, usable content, that is, it's better for them to look like this: http://www.browsercam.com/projects/198424/3883079.jpg the way they do in Netscape 4, than it is for them to look broken the way they do now. On the other hand, I don't know how to achieve that either! Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 8333 3488 Developer, ABC Kids Onlinehttp://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
My layouts are pretty basic, so I doubt it wouldn't work. I think the number of people out in the general public using Linux on the desktop is infintismally (sp?) small. On 10/13/05, Craig Rippon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and the market share of Linux in general in my own web site stats is next to nil. Genuine question: Is this because they visit, it doesn't work, and they don't come back, forever losing them as a customer? Craig Rippon Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.zombiecoder.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
and the market share of Linux in general in my own web site stats is next to nil. Wouldn't a LOT of Linux users now be Firefox users too? The OS is not the concern here (although Konqueror is Linux exclusive? ), it's getting things working in (somewhat imperfect) browsers. Ian is expressing a valid commercial concern: trying to give users a consistent, functional experience despite browser inconsistencies. Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Kay, thanks. I am a web development student at college and this point came up in a lecture, just curious to get opinions. Cheers Craig R. -Original Message- From: Kay Smoljak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 13 October 2005 12:27 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards My layouts are pretty basic, so I doubt it wouldn't work. I think the number of people out in the general public using Linux on the desktop is infintismally (sp?) small. On 10/13/05, Craig Rippon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and the market share of Linux in general in my own web site stats is next to nil. Genuine question: Is this because they visit, it doesn't work, and they don't come back, forever losing them as a customer? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Hi Craig, On 10/13/05, Craig Rippon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kay, thanks. I am a web development student at college and this point came up in a lecture, just curious to get opinions. While it's important to be accessible to everyone, harsh economic realities dictate that you have to draw the line somewhere with browser support. Your own logs are the only real way to determine where that line lies. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.zombiecoder.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Kay Smoljak wrote: My layouts are pretty basic, so I doubt it wouldn't work. I think the number of people out in the general public using Linux on the desktop is infintismally (sp?) small. Hem not infinitesimally small, but fewer than Windows. Possibly as many as Mac. IMHO designers fuss about the Mac versions because so many of us use them (me too!) but I also have a RedHat box under the desk and my laptop dual boots XP and Mandriva Linux. 'Cause it's standards-based, eh! ;-) Also, those who do use Linux tend to be on the geekier side of the street, and also quite loud when something isn't working. YMMV and your site stats should be your guide for at least the first release, but, if nothing else, sniff those browsers and give them an unstyled page, rather than a broken one. Cheers mark (PS my spellchecker just offered stoats for stats - it seems an equally valuable way to measure web site success! :-D ) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Ian I am with Kay on Netscape 6.2 it was based on Mozilla 0.9.4.1 and released in October 2001. And quickly followed by 6.2.1 6.2.2 and 6.2.3 and then replaced within a year by Netscape 7 which ran a real Mozilla engine 1.0.1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape NS 6.2 has not been in my support profile for over 18 months, never tested with it. But how disastrous your page looks I might just have to check a couple of recent sites, then write a detection script in javascript and feed a plain CSS (ie remove all positioning, floats etc.) for Netscape 6 users. As for Konqueror the screenshot does not look that bad, it appears to have problems with the javascript for advertising more than anything else. If you want to test in Linux, get a copy of Ubuntu live CD, drop the CD into your drive, reboot from the CD and you have a fully function Linux box, unfortunately it uses the Gnome desktop which knocks out testing Konqueror, but there should be something similar which uses the KDE desktop. Nick This email is from the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection and any information or attachments to it may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please reply mail to the sender informing them of the error and delete all copies from your computer system, including attachments and your reply email. As the information is confidential you must not disclose, copy or use it in any manner. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
On 10/13/05, Nick Cowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you want to test in Linux, get a copy of Ubuntu live CD, drop the CD into your drive, reboot from the CD and you have a fully function Linux box, unfortunately it uses the Gnome desktop which knocks out testing Konqueror, but there should be something similar which uses the KDE desktop. According to Ben whom I'm sitting here now with, Knoppix (which also runs off a CD/USB Stick or whatever) uses KDE - knoppix.org. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.zombiecoder.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
but there should be something similar which uses the KDE desktop. Knoppix uses KDE from (rather rusty) memory http://www.Knoppix.org Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Craig Rippon wrote: Kay, thanks. I am a web development student at college and this point came up in a lecture, just curious to get opinions. Cheers Craig R. Gday, I am a uni student at University of South Australia. May I ask you which college/uni teaches web development? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Katrina wrote: I'm sorry, I totally didn't mean to send that to the list. Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
