RE: [WSG] SilverLight

[Frank Palinkas]

/* And where we can't make a decision on your behalf, we offer a quick way to
set up accessibility through our tools. */

Concerning AJAX and Silverlight - I only pray that their interpretation ARIA
is not just another opera solo.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 18:01 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight

Quoting Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Can you show us where they claim it is much easier for screen readers,
>> search spiders to work with? THAT is what I want to see...

I recently spotted it in this article
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/05/11/silverlight_programming_q_and_a/

Quoting Keith Smith, product manager of the user experience platform  
and tools team at Microsoft covering Silverlight as well as WPF and  
tools like the new Expression Studio:

"Accessibility and localisation are areas where we think we have some  
very good solutions and tools support. Silverlight will adhere to all  
those standards and support screen readers but the most important  
thing is how easy it is for developers to discover [the accessibility  
options]. The pattern we follow with Ajax is to make smart decisions  
on behalf of the designer and developer ? so if you set the caption on  
a button we make sure that caption is copied automatically to the  
appropriate metadata. And where we can't make a decision on your  
behalf, we offer a quick way to set up accessibility through our  
tools. We have an accessibility checker for ASP.NET and Ajax and we  
want to do the same thing for Silverlight. But where we can put the  
processing burden on the computer, we want to do that."

I'll believe it when I see it, to be honest.

P
-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__



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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 30 Oct 2007, at 16:01, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


I recently spotted it in this article
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/05/11/ 
silverlight_programming_q_and_a/


Quoting Keith Smith, product manager of the user experience  
platform and tools team at Microsoft covering Silverlight as well  
as WPF and tools like the new Expression Studio:


"The pattern we follow with Ajax is to make smart decisions on  
behalf of the designer and developer"


When Microsoft say that kind of thing, my heart grows heavy with  
trepidation... remember all the grief they've caused in the past with  
stuff like determining how to display content by using assorted  
heuristics rather than just obeying the Content-Type HTTP header? All  
inspired by the idea that MS know what you really meant, and can  
"make smart decisions on your behalf", presumably because you can't  
make them yourself.


I'm reminded of a blog comment I read earlier today by a chap called  
barbecuesteve concerning the just-announced null characters exploit:
This really illustrates my fundamental problem with Microsoft’s  
attitude.


“The data you have is not accurate. Here, let me fix it for you.”

As if Microsoft is the sole determiner of what constitutes accurate  
data and what doesn’t.



Regards,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/

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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Quoting Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Can you show us where they claim it is much easier for screen readers,
search spiders to work with? THAT is what I want to see...


I recently spotted it in this article
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/05/11/silverlight_programming_q_and_a/

Quoting Keith Smith, product manager of the user experience platform  
and tools team at Microsoft covering Silverlight as well as WPF and  
tools like the new Expression Studio:


"Accessibility and localisation are areas where we think we have some  
very good solutions and tools support. Silverlight will adhere to all  
those standards and support screen readers but the most important  
thing is how easy it is for developers to discover [the accessibility  
options]. The pattern we follow with Ajax is to make smart decisions  
on behalf of the designer and developer ? so if you set the caption on  
a button we make sure that caption is copied automatically to the  
appropriate metadata. And where we can't make a decision on your  
behalf, we offer a quick way to set up accessibility through our  
tools. We have an accessibility checker for ASP.NET and Ajax and we  
want to do the same thing for Silverlight. But where we can put the  
processing burden on the computer, we want to do that."


I'll believe it when I see it, to be honest.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__



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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10/30/07, Christian Montoya wrote:
>
> >On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Christian - do you have a reference for that anywhere? I'd be really
> >> interested in seeing it (as I'm sure others would be too!)
> >
> >Just read the spec on XAML, which is what Silverlight uses:
> >http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms752059.aspx
>
> Hi Christian - I actually meant a reference on this part of your
> statement:
>
> "[because Silverlight uses XML] Microsoft claims that Silverlight is
> much easier for screen readers, search spiders, etc. to work with."
>
> Can you show us where they claim it is much easier for screen readers,
> search spiders to work with? THAT is what I want to see...

I know I read it somewhere but unfortunately I didn't save the
article. If I come across it again, I'll send it over. Until then,
assume it's just hearsay.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Derek Featherstone]

On 10/30/07, Christian Montoya wrote:

>On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Christian - do you have a reference for that anywhere? I'd be really
>> interested in seeing it (as I'm sure others would be too!)
>
>Just read the spec on XAML, which is what Silverlight uses:
>http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms752059.aspx

Hi Christian - I actually meant a reference on this part of your
statement:

"[because Silverlight uses XML] Microsoft claims that Silverlight is
much easier for screen readers, search spiders, etc. to work with."

Can you show us where they claim it is much easier for screen readers,
search spiders to work with? THAT is what I want to see...

Thanks, and sorry for my lack of clarity...
Derek.
-- 
Derek Featherstone   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel: +1 613-599-9784  1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America)
Work:  http://www.furtherahead.com
Blog:  http://www.boxofchocolates.ca
Learn: http://north.webdirections.org


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Matthew Cruickshank]

akella wrote:

It's going to be on linux as well
http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/09/moonlight_silve_1.html
Moonlight is the answer
  


Silverlight is patent encumbered and - on Linux - it may only be 
distributed by Novell (due to a patent agreement that lasts 4 years).


This means that it won't appear by default in Debian or Ubuntu (and 
probably Redhat).


To quote Novell,

"to avoid patent problems over Silverlight, when using or developing 
Mono’s implementation (known
as Moonlight), i’s best to ‘get/download Moonlight from Novell which 
will include patent coverage."


[...]

"Moonlight will be able to run on any distro supported by Mono, which 
is most of the major distros. Under the terms of the agreements we 
have with Microsoft, Novell customers are covered by Microsoft’s 
covenant not to sue over patents. In terms of Moonlight, that means 
that, if you download Moonlight from Novell (which is free of charge), 
you are considered a Novell customer of Moonlight, whether you run it 
on SUSE Linux Enterprise or on another distribution. If you get the 
Moonlight code from elsewhere, you are not considered a Novell 
customer, and so don’t fall within the covenant."




.Matthew Cruickshank
http://holloway.co.nz/


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[akella]

It's going to be on linux as well
http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/09/moonlight_silve_1.html
Moonlight is the answer

On 10/30/07, Michael MD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In the beta process, they were doing some flipping browser detection
> > **from within the plugin**, and only checked for Safari or Firefox,  as
> > opposed to check for Gecko.
> > The demos I've seen still only work half and half on Mac browsers,  except
> > Firefox 2.0.0.x and Safari.
>
> what about linux browsers?
> I won't go near it if it is locked down to one or two operating systems.
>
> I even avoided using flash for anything other than the occasional animated
> banner until quite recently for the same reason...
> (it was the talk on Flex a few months ago at a WSG Sydney gathering and the
> mention of Flash Player 9 being available on linux that encouraged me to to
> actually take a more serious look at flash/swf/etc!)
>
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 
С уважением,
Юрий "akella" Артюх
http://cssing.org.ua

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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Michael MD]

In the beta process, they were doing some flipping browser detection
**from within the plugin**, and only checked for Safari or Firefox,  as 
opposed to check for Gecko.
The demos I've seen still only work half and half on Mac browsers,  except 
Firefox 2.0.0.x and Safari.


what about linux browsers?
I won't go near it if it is locked down to one or two operating systems.

I even avoided using flash for anything other than the occasional animated 
banner until quite recently for the same reason...
(it was the talk on Flex a few months ago at a WSG Sydney gathering and the 
mention of Flash Player 9 being available on linux that encouraged me to to 
actually take a more serious look at flash/swf/etc!)







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RE: [WSG] SilverLight

[Frank Palinkas]

Thanks Christian,

Agreed, more work has to be done. One problem I find with this is that the
build-generated (X)HTML pages are not contained within a packaged vehicle, as
in a .swf, etc. These free-standing pages are at the mercy of the Silverlight
plug-in being installed on the user's OS, and at this time, it only caters
for the Trident and Gecko range of browser/user agents. I'm not a managed
code expert by any means, so I do stand to be corrected here.

I've been through something similar before, experimenting with XML and XSLT +
CSS to produce single-sourced user assistance and developer technical
documentation. For instance, needing a javascript interpreter to sniff out
which browser is active and then override the OS generic XSLT processor to
allow a page to render in the chosen browser with its own XSLT processor.
Even so, the pages I created with this method all had their structure,
presentation and content dynamically generated, as in the Silverlight
example, and of no use (at this stage) beyond the graphic rendering.

I think that Gez Lemon from The Paciello Group has looked into the
accessibility aspects of these early versions of Silverlight, but am not
aware of his findings yet.

Kind regards,

Frank


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 7:48 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight

On 10/30/07, Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From an accessibility aspect, a screen scrapper maybe be able to do its
job.
> However, any attempt to work the markup will be futile.

Obviously this wouldn't be as easy as understanding plain HTML markup,
but what I was saying was that a device could refer to Scene.xaml.js
and parse that to get the relevant content/actions/etc. It's just
slightly better than having to look at a .swf to figure out what's
going on.

New work will have to be done to make sense of Silverlight but the
process should be easier than anything Adobe did with Flash... not
that I'm bashing Flash here.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Oct 30, 2007, at 3:21 PM, Michael MD wrote:

The Silverlight build process produces a .dll. You need the  
Silverlight
plug-in to render the resulting html page. Also, from a quick  
test, it will
only render in IE and the Gecko range. Forget Opera, Safari for  
windows, etc.


If they are really serious about getting people to use Silverlight  
they need to provide the plugin for a wide range of popular browers  
and operating systems.. (definately including Safari, Opera, Mac  
browsers, Linux browsers, etc )
...until then I can't see why I should bother with it...  (of did I  
miss something?)


Well, the release version of the plugin actually works in Safari (and  
WebKit builds) and Gecko Mac (SeaMonkey, Camino, even Firefox). iCab  
and Opera (Mac, 9.23 and 9.5 beta) are not supported.


In the beta process, they were doing some flipping browser detection  
**from within the plugin**, and only checked for Safari or Firefox,  
as opposed to check for Gecko.
The demos I've seen still only work half and half on Mac browsers,  
except Firefox 2.0.0.x and Safari.


Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh






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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Matthew Cruickshank]

Travis D. Falls wrote:

So I have to ask... what do you all think of SilverLight... do you think it
is just another way to do Flash work in a different Tech. or will it be
more?
  


Another way of doing the same stuff.

The backend tech of Silverlight is a minimal install of .Net, so you get 
a few decent languages (C#, Boo).


XAML is good tech, but according to some developer friends (and this 
isn't first-hand knowledge so I can't vouch for it) this gui language 
has accessibility problems.


Adobe/Firefox are countering with Tamarin which can run Javascript and 
.Net (including Python/Ruby .Net variants) in the browser.


Adobe have Flash/Flex as the user interface.

Firefox has XUL/SVG/HTML5 as the user interface.

(sorry this is a such a rushed post -- I'm late for a bus)


.Matthew Cruickshank
http://docvert.org/













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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Michael MD]

The Silverlight build process produces a .dll. You need the Silverlight
plug-in to render the resulting html page. Also, from a quick test, it 
will
only render in IE and the Gecko range. Forget Opera, Safari for windows, 
etc.


If they are really serious about getting people to use Silverlight they need 
to provide the plugin for a wide range of popular browers and operating 
systems.. (definately including Safari, Opera, Mac browsers, Linux browsers, 
etc )
...until then I can't see why I should bother with it...  (of did I miss 
something?)










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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/30/07, Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From an accessibility aspect, a screen scrapper maybe be able to do its job.
> However, any attempt to work the markup will be futile.

Obviously this wouldn't be as easy as understanding plain HTML markup,
but what I was saying was that a device could refer to Scene.xaml.js
and parse that to get the relevant content/actions/etc. It's just
slightly better than having to look at a .swf to figure out what's
going on.

New work will have to be done to make sense of Silverlight but the
process should be easier than anything Adobe did with Flash... not
that I'm bashing Flash here.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10/29/07, Christian Montoya wrote:
>
> >... Silverlight is rendered XML while Flash is a compiled format.
> >Therefore, Microsoft claims that Silverlight is much easier for screen
> >readers, search spiders, etc. to work with.
>
> Christian - do you have a reference for that anywhere? I'd be really
> interested in seeing it (as I'm sure others would be too!)

Just read the spec on XAML, which is what Silverlight uses:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms752059.aspx

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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RE: [WSG] SilverLight

[Frank Palinkas]

Interesting. Some observations.

I downloaded and installed the Silverlight SDK 1.0. I built the example
project in VS 2005 running on WinXP Pro SP2 with no problems. However, it
would be better to run this on Vista with the Orcas Beta (VS 2008) because of
the generic XAML, WPF and .Net 3.0 and 3.5 frameworks inherent within those
platforms.

The Silverlight build process produces a .dll. You need the Silverlight
plug-in to render the resulting html page. Also, from a quick test, it will
only render in IE and the Gecko range. Forget Opera, Safari for windows, etc.
>From an accessibility aspect, a screen scrapper maybe be able to do its job.
However, any attempt to work the markup will be futile. The Default.htm web
page renders a "Click Me" button. Here is the markup behind the Default.htm
page produced by the build:

///

http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";>

FrankSilverlight_1









createSilverlight();





//

Everything is dynamically rendered by the javascript. This reminded me of the
need to use javascript (Sarissa library) to dynamically render XML via XSLT
in a multi-browser environment on a windows operating system.

If anyone wants the Silverlight project package that produces this, please
let me know and I'll zip and email it to you.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis D. Falls
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 5:52 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] SilverLight

I know from a developer stand point... the .NET languages (C# VB.NET
IronPython etc) and XAML are a lot nicer to use.  I hate ActionScript.  Lol
Great angle to look at though...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 11:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight

On 10/29/07, Travis D. Falls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I have to ask... what do you all think of SilverLight... do you think
it
> is just another way to do Flash work in a different Tech. or will it be
> more?

It's a little more. I've been looking into it and the distinct
difference between Silverlight and Flash is that Silverlight is
rendered XML while Flash is a compiled format. Therefore, Microsoft
claims that Silverlight is much easier for screen readers, search
spiders, etc. to work with. We'll see if things really do work out
that way.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
Rhristianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Derek Featherstone]

On 10/29/07, Christian Montoya wrote:

>... Silverlight is rendered XML while Flash is a compiled format.
>Therefore, Microsoft claims that Silverlight is much easier for screen
>readers, search spiders, etc. to work with.

Christian - do you have a reference for that anywhere? I'd be really
interested in seeing it (as I'm sure others would be too!)

Thanks, in advance...
Derek.
-- 
Derek Featherstone   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel: +1 613-599-9784  1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America)
Work:  http://www.furtherahead.com
Blog:  http://www.boxofchocolates.ca
Learn: http://north.webdirections.org


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RE: [WSG] SilverLight

[Travis D. Falls]

I know from a developer stand point... the .NET languages (C# VB.NET
IronPython etc) and XAML are a lot nicer to use.  I hate ActionScript.  Lol
Great angle to look at though...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 11:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight

On 10/29/07, Travis D. Falls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I have to ask... what do you all think of SilverLight... do you think
it
> is just another way to do Flash work in a different Tech. or will it be
> more?

It's a little more. I've been looking into it and the distinct
difference between Silverlight and Flash is that Silverlight is
rendered XML while Flash is a compiled format. Therefore, Microsoft
claims that Silverlight is much easier for screen readers, search
spiders, etc. to work with. We'll see if things really do work out
that way.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/29/07, Travis D. Falls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I have to ask... what do you all think of SilverLight... do you think it
> is just another way to do Flash work in a different Tech. or will it be
> more?

It's a little more. I've been looking into it and the distinct
difference between Silverlight and Flash is that Silverlight is
rendered XML while Flash is a compiled format. Therefore, Microsoft
claims that Silverlight is much easier for screen readers, search
spiders, etc. to work with. We'll see if things really do work out
that way.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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