Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Ben Buchanan]

Late to the party, but since I was specifically mentioned it's only
polite to reply ;)


The issue here is about the meaning of the word "semantic". Semantics
refer to the *meaning* attached to something. What is the meaning of a
div? It's *use* is structural, but it's *meaning* is ... well, it
doesn't have a meaning. Only by attaching meaning via a class or id does
a div or span acquire meaning.


DIVs are an interesting one in that they are "neutral", but they
aren't really neutral. They just have a very "light" semantic meaning
and it's mostly that their usage creates meaning for the page by
adding structure. To me, the structure of a document is inextricably
linked with the semantics of the contained elements.

So together with headings they define the structure of the page.
Although they themselves don't have specific significance, their usage
is significant for the page. It gets a bit meta. They enclose
semantically significant items.

To approach this slightly differently, div+heading is the general
non-form content equivalent of fieldset+legend.


It seems to me that many people here have different ideas about what
semantic means. It would be helpful it we shared a common understanding
in our conversations. I welcome, and invite, a *polite and professional*
debate about the use of the term "semantic" as it relates to our work on
the web.
The "use" of something, and its "meaning" are not necessarily the
same.


They're not necessarily different either :)


To come back to the original discussion about fieldsets, everyone has
made it very clear what the "correct" way to use them is, and I don't
disagree with them. I'm not interested in their correct (as defined by
the specifications) use. As far as I'm concerned, the "use" of a
fieldset is to group form controls and labels. But the "meaning" is, as
the w3schools site says, to group related content.


The actual W3C spec says related form controls, it's only a
confusingly-named third party that broadens the wording. Personally I
discount W3Schools in favour of the actual W3C.

[snip re testing in a screen reader]

I too would love to see the results of this experiment.


Interesting that the code you propose does render ok; but useful
functionality is lost. So it's not directly harmful, but substantially
detracts from other usage paradigms.


staff details

email[EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone12345678


Is perfectly valid, semantic markup which a screen reader would render
just fine.


Changing the legend to a header (say an h2 just for discussion) and
removing the fieldset also works just fine in a screen reader. In
english-language documents the page order associates the H2 with the
DL. If the content after the DL is totally unrelated, it would need
another heading.


But can I point out, Ben, that at no time did anyone ever suggest
placing form elements in the middle of general content. I'm not sure
where you got that one from.


I consider fieldset and legend to be form elements, hence the comment.
Admittedly that goes right back to the original point of discussion so
I should have clarified a bit :)

cheers,

Ben

--
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Jun 7, 2007, at 5:30 PM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:

Its probably been designed to Web standards so it won't recognise  
things

like microformats which subvert CSS classes for its own purposes.


From 7.5.2 Element identifiers: the id and class attributes



The class attribute has several roles in HTML:

* As a style sheet selector (when an author wishes to assign  
style information to a set of elements).

* For general purpose processing by user agents.


Nowhere does it say that the class attribute is limited to css.
Microformats fall under the second bullet.

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Stuart Foulstone]

Its probably been designed to Web standards so it won't recognise things
like microformats which subvert CSS classes for its own purposes.


On Thu, June 7, 2007 6:15 am, Lucien Stals wrote:
> "Groupwise" is a Novel client (and server) for email and appointments
> etc. Think MS Outlook, by Novel. It's the proprietary email client and
> address book and calendar app we are obliged to use at work. It even
> comes with it's own chat client that doesn't talk to any other chat
> protocols.
>
> Being a closed source app, I'm having trouble looking for how to get it
> to read microformat data, but perhaps I'm looking at the problem the
> wrong way around. I will, as you suggest, look at getting operator to
> push the data into groupwise :)
>
> It would be a shame if I can't get it to work after having gone to the
> trouble of adding microformat event and vCard data to our departmental
> calendar and staff contact pages, respectively.
>
> Lucien.
> --
>
> Lucien Stals
> Multimedia/Web Developer
> Academic Development and Support
> Swinburne University of Technology
> PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
> office: AD223
>
>
 On 7/06/2007 at 2:57 pm, "Michael MD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>> Maybe I used a poor example.
>>>
>>> Microformats would certainly be my first choice for this. I just
> wish
>>> there was *more* software that could use it. And a plugin to add
>>> microformat data into a groupwise client. That would be nice :)
>>>
>>
>> I have no idea what "groupwise" is but could a user script could be
> created
>> for the Operator Firefox plugin to add the data?
>> The latest version of it allows you to add your own scripts
> (javascript) to
>> do things with the data it finds.
>>
>> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4106
>>
>> There is also some talk about including future native support for
>> microformats in Firefox 3
>>
> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/mozilla_does_microformats_firefox3.php
>
>>
> http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2007/02/04/microformats-part-4-the-user-interface-
>
>> of-microformat-detection
>>
>> Microsoft's "Live Clipboard" also uses microformats
>> http://rayozzie.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!FB3017FBB9B2E142!285.entry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> ***
>
> Swinburne University of Technology
> CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D
>
> NOTICE
> This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the
> use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or
> protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any
> dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly
> prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any
> attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted
> in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for
> viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this
> transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it
> immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection
> with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised
> access or unauthorised amendment.
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***


-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Lucien Stals]

"Groupwise" is a Novel client (and server) for email and appointments
etc. Think MS Outlook, by Novel. It's the proprietary email client and
address book and calendar app we are obliged to use at work. It even
comes with it's own chat client that doesn't talk to any other chat
protocols.

Being a closed source app, I'm having trouble looking for how to get it
to read microformat data, but perhaps I'm looking at the problem the
wrong way around. I will, as you suggest, look at getting operator to
push the data into groupwise :)

It would be a shame if I can't get it to work after having gone to the
trouble of adding microformat event and vCard data to our departmental
calendar and staff contact pages, respectively.

Lucien.
-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 7/06/2007 at 2:57 pm, "Michael MD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Maybe I used a poor example.
>>
>> Microformats would certainly be my first choice for this. I just
wish
>> there was *more* software that could use it. And a plugin to add
>> microformat data into a groupwise client. That would be nice :)
>>
> 
> I have no idea what "groupwise" is but could a user script could be
created 
> for the Operator Firefox plugin to add the data?
> The latest version of it allows you to add your own scripts
(javascript) to 
> do things with the data it finds.
> 
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4106 
> 
> There is also some talk about including future native support for 
> microformats in Firefox 3
>
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/mozilla_does_microformats_firefox3.php

>
http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2007/02/04/microformats-part-4-the-user-interface-

> of-microformat-detection
> 
> Microsoft's "Live Clipboard" also uses microformats
> http://rayozzie.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!FB3017FBB9B2E142!285.entry 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm 
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm 
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> ***

Swinburne University of Technology
CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D

NOTICE
This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use 
of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected 
by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, 
distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University 
does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is 
also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility 
to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you 
have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 
and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in 
connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, 
unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment.

Please consider the environment before printing this email.


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
X-GWTYPE:USER
FN:Lucien Stals
TEL;WORK:4474
ORG:;Academic Development and Support
EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
N:Stals;Lucien
END:VCARD



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Michael MD]

Maybe I used a poor example.

Microformats would certainly be my first choice for this. I just wish
there was *more* software that could use it. And a plugin to add
microformat data into a groupwise client. That would be nice :)



I have no idea what "groupwise" is but could a user script could be created 
for the Operator Firefox plugin to add the data?
The latest version of it allows you to add your own scripts (javascript) to 
do things with the data it finds.


https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4106

There is also some talk about including future native support for 
microformats in Firefox 3

http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/mozilla_does_microformats_firefox3.php
http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2007/02/04/microformats-part-4-the-user-interface-of-microformat-detection

Microsoft's "Live Clipboard" also uses microformats
http://rayozzie.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!FB3017FBB9B2E142!285.entry




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Philip Kiff]

Lucien Stals wrote:
> It seems to me that many people here have different ideas about what
> semantic means. It would be helpful it we shared a common
> understanding in our conversations. I welcome, and invite, a *polite
> and professional* debate about the use of the term "semantic" as it
> relates to our work on the web.

I have also noticed that the term "semantic" seems to be understood
differently by different people, especially with respect to websites and
coding.  There are probably many reasons for this, but one reason is that
there really are at least two different definitions in use: one is based on
the proposal/theory of the "Semantic Web", and the other is based on
linguistics and the theory of how language produces "meaning".  These two
definitions are similar and related, but not identical.  And sometimes it
appears that people slip back and forth from one definition to another.

I'm not sure that I can define what "semantic" means in each case, but I
would nevertheless highlight these two cases as two different uses of the
word, and as one reason it can be difficult to come up with a common
language to discuss "semantics" as they relate to web standards.

Phil.



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Nick Gleitzman]

Raine wrote:


 Let me be so bold as to nip this thread in the bud...


Gee, sorry. I just thought, given the intensity that some people 
display here, a little levity every now and then helps the medicine go 
down - or something... Look what fun we can have:


... often tiresome ... display ... and ... trivial ... insistence on 
precision ... and excessively subtle reasoning.


BTW, was there a point to posting the same definition twice?

N ;o)
___
omnivision. websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

ADMIN Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Lea de Groot]

OK, people - enough fun and games. 
Lets try and keep the posts on topic and valuable, eh?
:)

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
WSG Core Member


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Raine]

Let me be so bold as to nip this thread in the bud via one trip to the 
dictionary:


pedantic definition
adj.
Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning 
and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.

pedantic synonyms
adjective
Characterized by a narrow concern for book learning and formal rules, 
without knowledge or experience of practical matters: academic, bookish, 
donnish, formalistic, inkhorn, literary, pedantical, scholastic. See 
attitude, flexible, teach


pedantical synonyms
adjective
Characterized by a narrow concern for book learning and formal rules, 
without knowledge or experience of practical matters: academic, bookish, 
donnish, formalistic, inkhorn, literary, pedantic, scholastic. See 
attitude, flexible, teach


pedantic derivatives
pe·danprime.gifti·cal·ly adv.
Synonyms: pedantic, academic, bookish, donnish, scholastic
These adjectives mean marked by a narrow, often tiresome focus on or 
display of learning and especially its trivial aspects: a pedantic 
writing style; an academic insistence on precision; a bookish 
vocabulary; donnish refinement of speech; scholastic and excessively 
subtle reasoning.



Matthew Pennell wrote:
On 06/06/07, *Raine* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


okay,  I hate to play post-police, but...
can someone explain to me what this has to do with web standards?


You really have to ask what pedantry has to do with web standards..!? ;)

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*** 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Matthew Pennell]

On 06/06/07, Raine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


okay,  I hate to play post-police, but...
can someone explain to me what this has to do with web standards?



You really have to ask what pedantry has to do with web standards..!? ;)


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Raine]

okay,  I hate to play post-police, but...
can someone explain to me what this has to do with web standards?

Nick Gleitzman wrote:


On 6 Jun 2007, at 2:59 PM, John Faulds wrote:

Well if we're going to talk about 'pedanticness' it has to be pointed 
out that there's no such word; the word you're looking for is 
'pedantry'.


Pedanticity? 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[lisa herrod]

On 06/06/07, Nick Gleitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 6 Jun 2007, at 2:59 PM, John Faulds wrote:

> Well if we're going to talk about 'pedanticness' it has to be pointed
> out that there's no such word; the word you're looking for is
> 'pedantry'.

Pedanticity?



Isn't that where they all go for their holidays...? :)



No, you cannot make your navigation out of turtles that move across
the screen and are only available for forty percent of the day
- Sean Madden


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Nick Gleitzman]

On 6 Jun 2007, at 2:59 PM, John Faulds wrote:

Well if we're going to talk about 'pedanticness' it has to be pointed 
out that there's no such word; the word you're looking for is 
'pedantry'.


Pedanticity?
___
omnivision. websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[John Faulds]

Well if we're going to talk about 'pedanticness' it has to be pointed out  
that there's no such word; the word you're looking for is 'pedantry'.


On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:54:04 +1000, Lucien Stals  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




Hi Ben and others,

Here is my own bit of pedanticness...




--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Steve Green]

JAWS reads legends in 'virtual cursor mode' and in 'forms mode' but it reads
them differently in the two modes.

In 'virtual cursor mode', which is the normal mode of operation for websites
and PDFs, it will simply read the legend when it reaches that element. It
does not announce the element type so it is indistinguishable from paragraph
text.

In 'forms mode' the legend is read before the label for each form control in
the fieldset. If there are no form controls in the fieldset it will not get
read at all.

JAWS also does not handle definition lists at all well, which is one reason
I oppose their use unless there is a very good reason for using them.
Another reason is that although JAWS announces the start of a definition
list, I have yet to meet a user who knows what one is.

Unfortunately even the most recent version of JAWS does not announce the
start of a new list item (i.e. a  element), whereas it does announce
each  in ordered or unordered lists. Worse still, it does not tell the
user how many  elements there are for each list item. The result is that
the user cannot make any sense of the content because it is simply one piece
of content after another with no indication of the structure.

By contrast, a data table containing the same data is far easier to
understand and to navigate because JAWS can read the row and column headers
for a cell and can navigate both vertically and horizontally, which it
cannot do with a definition list.

>From memory, Lucien's example would be read as:

staff details
Definition list of two items
email
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone
12345678

That is actually quite understandable even though JAWS cannot use any of the
semantic structure that has been provided, but that may not be the case
depending on the content.

Of course one could argue that JAWS should handle definition lists better,
and I would agree. I still say that the use of the fieldset it entirely
wrong and that apart from the visual effect it provides no semantic value to
any user agent.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman
Sent: 06 June 2007 04:26
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

Lucien Stals wrote:

> I suspect that the following code...
>
> staff details  
> email[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> phone12345678
> 
> 
>
> Is perfectly valid, semantic markup which a screen reader would render 
> just fine.

Logical, no doubt of it. But see Steve Green's post which said, "JAWS ...
can only enter 'forms mode' when a form control has focus."

Does that mean that JAWS won't read the contents of the  element
because it's not in 'forms mode'? And if not, how important is it for
clarification of what follows that the legend be read? If the answer to that
is 'not', or 'optional', there's not much point in including it - is there?

> But can I point out, Ben, that at no time did anyone ever suggest 
> placing form elements in the middle of general content. I'm not sure 
> where you got that one from.

I understood Ben to be referring to the  element itself. But if a
 is a form element, and is used out of context of a form and its
controls, then it *is* "...a form element cropping up in the middle of
general content..." - isn't it?

Don't you just love circular arguments? Whoops, discussions?

N

PS Before anyone gets bent out of shape by minimal quotes from previous
posts changing their context or meaning, can I respectfully remind them that
the previous posts and threads are always there for refererence?
___
omnivision. websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Lucien Stals]

Maybe I used a poor example.

Microformats would certainly be my first choice for this. I just wish
there was *more* software that could use it. And a plugin to add
microformat data into a groupwise client. That would be nice :)

Lucien.
-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 6/06/2007 at 1:47 pm, "Michael MD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  I too would love to see the results of this experiment.
>>
>> Any takers?
>>
>> I suspect that the following code...
>>
>> staff details
>> 
>> email[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> phone12345678
>> 
>> 
> 
> perhaps ... but for the purpose of marking up contact details in a 
> meaningful way why not use hCard?
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard 
> 
> ...there are lots of other people already using hCard out there and
there is 
> 
> software that can use it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm 
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm 
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> ***

Swinburne University of Technology
CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D

NOTICE
This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use 
of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected 
by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, 
distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University 
does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is 
also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility 
to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you 
have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 
and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in 
connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, 
unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment.

Please consider the environment before printing this email.


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
X-GWTYPE:USER
FN:Lucien Stals
TEL;WORK:4474
ORG:;Academic Development and Support
EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
N:Stals;Lucien
END:VCARD



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Lucien Stals]

-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 6/06/2007 at 1:25 pm, Nick Gleitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Lucien Stals wrote:
> 
>> I suspect that the following code...
>>
>> staff details
>> 
>> email[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> phone12345678
>> 
>> 
>>
>> Is perfectly valid, semantic markup which a screen reader would
render
>> just fine.
> 
> Logical, no doubt of it. But see Steve Green's post which said, "JAWS

> ... can only enter 'forms mode' when a form control has focus."
> 
> Does that mean that JAWS won't read the contents of the  
> element because it's not in 'forms mode'? And if not, how important
is 
> it for clarification of what follows that the legend be read? If the

> answer to that is 'not', or 'optional', there's not much point in 
> including it - is there?
>

Hmm. It's an interesting point. I'd still be curious to find out what
does in fact happen. But if that's correct, then using the fieldset this
way has no practical  benefit for people using assistive devices. In
which case we might be doing nothing more than drawing a pretty box
around some text, which is a presentational issue best done with CSS
anyway.

I think it could still be of semantic use to sighted users.

Lucien.

Swinburne University of Technology
CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D

NOTICE
This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use 
of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected 
by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, 
distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University 
does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is 
also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility 
to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you 
have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 
and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in 
connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, 
unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment.

Please consider the environment before printing this email.


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
X-GWTYPE:USER
FN:Lucien Stals
TEL;WORK:4474
ORG:;Academic Development and Support
EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
N:Stals;Lucien
END:VCARD



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Michael MD]

I too would love to see the results of this experiment.

Any takers?

I suspect that the following code...

staff details

email[EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone12345678




perhaps ... but for the purpose of marking up contact details in a 
meaningful way why not use hCard?

http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard

...there are lots of other people already using hCard out there and there is 
software that can use it...








***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Nick Gleitzman]

Lucien Stals wrote:


I suspect that the following code...

staff details

email[EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone12345678



Is perfectly valid, semantic markup which a screen reader would render
just fine.


Logical, no doubt of it. But see Steve Green's post which said, "JAWS 
... can only enter 'forms mode' when a form control has focus."


Does that mean that JAWS won't read the contents of the  
element because it's not in 'forms mode'? And if not, how important is 
it for clarification of what follows that the legend be read? If the 
answer to that is 'not', or 'optional', there's not much point in 
including it - is there?



But can I point out, Ben, that at no time did anyone ever suggest
placing form elements in the middle of general content. I'm not sure
where you got that one from.


I understood Ben to be referring to the  element itself. But 
if a  is a form element, and is used out of context of a form 
and its controls, then it *is* "...a form element cropping up in the 
middle of general content..." - isn't it?


Don't you just love circular arguments? Whoops, discussions?

N

PS Before anyone gets bent out of shape by minimal quotes from previous 
posts changing their context or meaning, can I respectfully remind them 
that the previous posts and threads are always there for refererence?

___
omnivision. websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***