Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Ted Drake wrote:
Jeremy Keith recently spoke about using the class in the link to
target a javascript to add the behavior, leaving a nice, clean link.
In the case of PDFs opening in a new window, you might not even need
to add a class. You could write a function that looks for the file
extension .pdf in the href attribute and open that link in a new
window. Something like this:
function preparePDFlinks() {
if (!document.getElementsByTagName);
var lnks = document.getElementsByTagName(a);
for (var i=0; ilnks.length; i++) {
if (lnks[i].getAttribute(href).indexOf(.pdf) != -1) {
lnks[i].onclick = function() {
return !window.open(this.href);
}
}
}
}
window.onload = preparePDFlinks;
I haven't tested that: it's just an idea really.
--
Jeremy Keith
a d a c t i o
http://adactio.com/
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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Jeremy Keith wrote:
Ted Drake wrote:
Jeremy Keith recently spoke about using the class in the link to
target a javascript to add the behavior, leaving a nice, clean link.
In the case of PDFs opening in a new window, you might not even need to
add a class. You could write a function that looks for the file
extension .pdf in the href attribute and open that link in a new
window. Something like this:
function preparePDFlinks() {
if (!document.getElementsByTagName);
var lnks = document.getElementsByTagName(a);
for (var i=0; ilnks.length; i++) {
if (lnks[i].getAttribute(href).indexOf(.pdf) != -1) {
lnks[i].onclick = function() {
return !window.open(this.href);
}
}
}
}
window.onload = preparePDFlinks;
I haven't tested that: it's just an idea really.
One should consider using the native type attribute on the anchor
element as in:
a href=tps_report.pdf type=application/pdfTPS Report/a
this cause theoretical you could have a CGI/PHP/ASP/FooBar-script
generate the PDF for you.
a href=generateTpsReport.php?id=1 type=application/pdfTPS Report/a
On the main subject of this thread I am as many here seems to be not
really really sure what is best-practice. Do there exist a
'best-practice' for a thing like this? As someone pointed out already it
depends much upon the user base one have. I doubt the users of for
example computerubergeek.com would appreciate if you forced new windows.
On the other hand... A big shop whose main user group consist of
computer illiterates I agree that a new window approach is better as
many of these users expects this behaviour.
Can we make a silver bullet?
If you have members only site you could pretty easy implement user
settings like:
--- 8 -
Web application settings
Here you can control how the web application (this site, example.com)
should response to your actions when you interact (click on links etc.)
with it. Remember that these settings will only work if your browser
supports JavaScript and it´s activated.
[ ] Never ever (I mean it) open any[1] links in new windows (supercedes
all other settings).
[x] Open non web documents[2] in new window.
[x] Trust default beaviour on links.
... and so on...
--- 8 -
[1] We have a small disclaimer telling that we can´t effect external
links that come from a different domain and that are loaded inside an
iframe for example. The actual text is longer but you get it.
[2] The text 'non web documents' is a link navigating to a list that
lists(!) documents like Excel, Word, PDF etc.
Of course you could implement this even for a public site putting your
trust in cookies but you all know the impact on this.
I have recently been experimenting with a left-click context menu for
what I call 'advanced' links a.k.a. multi-choice-links (havn´t decided
what name feels best). What 'advanced' links is is left upon the
behaviour developer (JavaScript developer) to decide but the idea popped
to my head when it became clear that my standard way of defining links
to non web resources:
a href=tpd_report.pdf type=application/pdfTPS Report/a span
class=Download(a href=/download/?tpd_report.pdf
type=application/pdfdownload/a)/span
would become rather messy if I also added a 'open in new window'-link.
So now I have a new choice under 'Web application settings':
--- 8 -
[ ] Activate web application context menu on 'advanced' links[3].
--- 8 -
[3] Here again is a link leading to 'our' definition of 'advanced' links.
Conclusion is that your wab application should grow as your users grow.
Newbies to the internet and/or your site should feel comfortable and the
web app should adhere to the 'least surprise respond'-philosophy. It
should also be able to live up to the challenges that the more advanced
users set out.
Well, this is only my ideas on the subject =)
Live long and prosperous
/Anders
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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
In the case of PDFs opening in a new window, you might not even need to add a class. You could write a function that looks for the file extension .pdf in the href attribute and open that link in a new window. Andrew Krespanis posted this link a few weeks ago http://leftjustified.net/lab/javascript-file-links/ Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Hi Ted, I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal with different file types according to their preference (open the document in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference? The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to. Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I would recommend something like: a href=document.pdfSome stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the links. Cheers, Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Myself I would say when possible have an alternate txt or html file. I strongly discourage pdf on websites unless it is a zip file for download. As stated by Damian they are annoying for users with modems, and I find them annoying at all times. Keep pdf's for printing and inter office. Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions - Original Message - From: Damian Sweeney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy Hi Ted, I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal with different file types according to their preference (open the document in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference? The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to. Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I would recommend something like: a href=document.pdfSome stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the links. Cheers, Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Hi Damian Thanks for the feedback. We use CSS to place an icon in front of the link to illustrate the file format as well as the (filename.pdf, 35k) designation. Is there anyone out there that supports opening in a new window? If not, it looks like I will suggest we keep it behavior-free. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Damian Sweeney Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 3:01 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy Hi Ted, I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal with different file types according to their preference (open the document in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference? The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to. Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I would recommend something like: a href=document.pdfSome stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the links. Cheers, Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
There is a flip-side to the no new window recommendation.. Many of our users are very computer illiterate and giving them too many options confuses them. We do open our PDF documents in a new window and never have any complaints about it. We DO get complaints, though, when things are too hard to use or if the page they were on disappars because we opened a document in that same window or if the file downloaded and they can't find it (happened regularly before we launched the PDF in another window). We also get complaints from Mac users for similar reasons (because, apparently, the default behaviours that have sometimes been set up always just download files to one place and dont give the user an option of saying where they want the file - and then they can't find it). I'm all for web-standards - but when a user base clearly has problems in dealing with a move to a standard then I would prefer to cater for my user base over the standard. There are always exceptions to every rule. Regards, Gary On 8/16/05, Damian Sweeney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ted,I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enoughinformation in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to dealwith different file types according to their preference (open the documentin the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give usersthe option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do Ichoose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference?The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I haveto place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'mdoing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to.Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, Iwould recommend something like:a href="" stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read thelinks.Cheers,Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly.What is the general feelingtowards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window?--Damian SweeneyLearning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills UnitInstructional Designer, AIRport ProjectEquity, Language and Learning ProgramsUniversity of Melbourne723 Swanston StParkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/airport.unimelb.edu.au/ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information orinformation that is otherwise confidential or the subject ofcopyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part ofitis prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email orany attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check anyattachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If thisemail is received in error please delete it and notify us by returnemailor by phoning (03) 8344 9370. **The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**
RE: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
I fall in line with Gary. I'm savvy enough to right-click on pdf links but when I forget to do it, I'm aggrevated by the browser having to load the reader software. I would be happy to have it open a new window. This is for an intranet site, but I think the discussion is valid for all web sites. I use this: return false; instead of target="_blank". Jeremy Keith recently spoke about using the class in the link to target a _javascript_ to add the behavior, leaving a nice, clean link. Correct me if I'm wrong. By replacing the target with the script, we are bypassing the issue of screenreaders and portable devices getting confused with multiple windows. Ted From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Menzel Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 3:18 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy There is a flip-side to the no new window recommendation.. Many of our users are very computer illiterate and giving them too many options confuses them. We do open our PDF documents in a new window and never have any complaints about it. We DO get complaints, though, when things are too hard to use or if the page they were on disappars because we opened a document in that same window or if the file downloaded and they can't find it (happened regularly before we launched the PDF in another window). We also get complaints from Mac users for similar reasons (because, apparently, the default behaviours that have sometimes been set up always just download files to one place and dont give the user an option of saying where they want the file - and then they can't find it). I'm all for web-standards - but when a user base clearly has problems in dealing with a move to a standard then I would prefer to cater for my user base over the standard. There are always exceptions to every rule. Regards, Gary On 8/16/05, Damian Sweeney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ted, I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal with different file types according to their preference (open the document in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference? The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to. Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I would recommend something like: a href="" stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the links. Cheers, Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly.What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part ofit is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email orany attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by returnemail or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
I'm not familiar with it being a 'web standard' not to open a new window for a link. Can someone enlighten me? Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
We have tested sites with both different behaviours on users and in most cases if the PDF would open in the same window the inexperienced users would accidentally close the window and as a result lose the website they were working with. It seems to be already in the users' minds that a different page (e.g. PDF file or a third-party website) will open in a new window. So, very often without even thinking much about it they close the window once they are done. And to lose your point in a website is very frustrating, in particular for inexperienced users: they have to start all over again, open a new browser window, might even have to search in Google for the site again and find their prior position in your website. I wish it was different and we could train the users to learn to use their options, but I think this will be very difficult. Opening links in new browser windows has been around for such a long time, most users have learned to accept it as a standard and in fact rely on this happening. So for my perspective: definitely open PDFs and other such documents in new windows (allows modem users to stop the download at any time and prevents users from accidentally closing their current website). Cheers, Andreas. From: Drake, Ted C. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2005 2:24 AM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? I personally find it annoying to open a pdf document in the native window and having to wait for the reader to load. I usually right-click and open in a new window. However, I know some people expect that to happen and could lose their place if a bunch of windows are opened. I would use the javascript approach to avoid using target=_blank. This should avoid the complications of having PDA devices or screen readers attempting to open multiple windows. So, I told my co-workers that I would throw this out to the standards community. Try to ignore any bias I may have. I would appreciate any honest feedback about whether we should open new windows for .pdf, .doc, .ppt, xls, .visio, or .whatever. Thanks Ted Drake Web Collaboration Services Science Applications International Corporation 858.826.3856 / 858.826.3336 (fax) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
I completely concur with Gary as I have these types of files open in a new window for the very reasons he stated. Additionally, I've had users report that they close the window thinking that they're exiting the document, but they're actually closing the browser. Respectfully, Mario There is a flip-side to the no new window recommendation.. Many of our users are very computer illiterate and giving them too many options confuses them. We do open our PDF documents in a new window and never have any complaints about it. We DO get complaints, though, when things are too hard to use or if the page they were on disappars because we opened a document in that same window or if the file downloaded and they can't find it (happened regularly before we launched the PDF in another window). We also get complaints from Mac users for similar reasons (because, apparently, the default behaviours that have sometimes been set up always just download files to one place and dont give the user an option of saying where they want the file - and then they can't find it). I'm all for web-standards - but when a user base clearly has problems in dealing with a move to a standard then I would prefer to cater for my user base over the standard. There are always exceptions to every rule. Regards, Gary On 8/16/05, Damian Sweeney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ted, I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal with different file types according to their preference (open the document in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference? The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to. Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I would recommend something like: a href=document.pdfSome stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the links. Cheers, Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/http://www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/http://www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ http://airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
I fall in line with Gary. I do to, it just makes sense I use this: onclick=window.open(this.href); return false; instead of target=_blank. This short script doesn't name the window, so it should spawn multiple popups. I'd use: onclick=window.open(this.href,'myPopup'); return false; As a side note, some blockers kill these popups. Jeremy Keith recently spoke about using the class in the link to target a javascript to add the behavior, leaving a nice, clean link. One can apply the behavior without any attribute other than href http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/popups.asp Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Hi Thierry, This short script doesn't name the window, so it should spawn multiple popups. I'd use: onclick=window.open(this.href,'myPopup'); return false; As a side note, some blockers kill these popups. The window.open function returns true if successful, otherwise false. You could use the return value to determine whether or not you want to stop the href attribute being honoured to cater for blockers. onclick=return !window.open(this.href); Best regards, Gez -- _ Supplement your vitamins http://juicystudio.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Title: Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy Hi there, Could be that this discussion has drifted toward usability rather than accessibility. Accessibility considerations would be ensuring that users are advised of what will happened when they activate the link, either than the document would be opened in a new window, or that it will be downloaded. Also that opening a new window does not adversely effect users accessing a website with assistive technologies (screen readers, etc.). As to user expectation, it all depends on context. Some forms of content, such as blogs and forums are 'riddled' with pop-up windows, users exposed to such content quickly become familiar with pop-ups. As an interface design philosophy, ceding control to the user is your best bet. (This also extends to enabling text to be resized, fluid/elastic layout, etc.). In the case of pop-ups, only opening documents in new windows prevents an experienced user from controlling the browser behaviour. Indicating that a link will open in a new window is a good start, providing both a popup and non-popup link may be safer (see below). As an aside, some browsers have difficulty opening documents in new windows, when the document is a not a recognised content type. As a document like a PDF is not either a 'webpage' or inline content (such as a GIF or JPEG), the browser may only open a blank window (without downloading the document). REFERENCES Popup windows (Motive Glossary) Philosophy. Common reasons for using pop-ups, etc. http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/popup.php WAI Checkpoint 10.1 Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change the current window without informing the user. http://www.w3.org/WAI/wcag-curric/sam77-0.htm So, I told my co-workers that I would throw this out to the standards community. Try to ignore any bias I may have. I would appreciate any honest feedback about whether we should open new windows for .pdf, .doc, .ppt, xls, .visio, or .whatever. Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Gez Lemon wrote: Hi Thierry, This short script doesn't name the window, so it should spawn multiple popups. I'd use: onclick=window.open(this.href,'myPopup'); return false; As a side note, some blockers kill these popups. The window.open function returns true if successful, otherwise false. You could use the return value to determine whether or not you want to stop the href attribute being honoured to cater for blockers. Hi Gez, I thought we had that discussion already ;) Best regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
I use this: onclick=window.open(this.href); return false; instead of target=_blank. +1 for onclick=return !window.open(this.href) - successfully tested with some blockers etc. - better than returnig false everytime (nothing happens then if JS is enabled but the window can't be opened). Or maybe onclick=this.taget='_blank' ? By replacing the target with the script, we are bypassing the issue of screenreaders and portable devices getting confused with multiple windows. No, we're just moving the behavior to its appropriate place - the scipting. The UA can then have those features disabled, or ask the user etc., that's fine. It only shouldn't be in the document itself, where it does not belong. The usage certailny has to be well considered... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
On the whole, I'm very much in the 'user decide' camp. However, there is some argument for opening PDFs and other 'not-normally-browser-native' media types in new windows (citing the confusing ways in which plug ins behave). Personally, I like everything to download and be opened by a native application (especially PDFs!), but for coping with the default behaviour of opening the in-browser plug-in, I /might/ give consideration to new windows. The best option I can think of a 1am is to clearly offer a second 'open in new window' link, probably inserted onload using script. That way, the user can choose how to open it and if they pick the 'open' link that sits next to an 'open in new window' link, they are given some hint that the document will open in the SAME window, and thus get around some of the back button/close button confusion mentioned above. The other 'new window' situation I can think of relates to some 'web applications'. For example, on the site I maintain, we have a Reseller Locator that was designed with minimal header and footer to reduce clutter. Although a legacy app (so it might not be designed this way if we did it again) in this case it aids the usability of the application to have the reduced interface. However, this then removes a lot site navigation, so it makes more sense to open it in a new window. The critical, REALLY REALLY important thing I draw attention to when you have a system that (for whatever reason) is better suited to a new window: *make it as obvious as you can*. 1) Add the new window behaviour to the link using script *after* load. Have it open in the same, default window using a standard hyperlink without script, so as not to lock out customised browser configurations or scriptless fringe browsers. 2) Define a default size for the app! Obviously allow it to be resizeable, but if a new browser window appears that has exactly the same dimensions as the 'primary' window it was spawned from, the user is quite unlikely to twig that this is a different window at all. They'll be confused when they can't click 'back' to return to the original page. If, however, you give the child window a different (ideally smaller) size, then it will stand out from the main browser and the user won't be as confused when wanting to return to the first page. Still bad practice, I think, but those two rules are absolutely non-negotiable for me when making the best of an imperfect situation! Ben http://ben-ward.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Hi, We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? I view PDF, .MS Office documents etc as *non web content*. That is, they are not web pages and should not load in the browser as though they were web pages. However this view is mostly gut feel rather than based on any kind of statistics on what users think :) So anyway, in order of preference my approach to PDF is this: 1) Don't use PDF in the first place, if at all possible. 2) If you do use PDF, it's critical that the link is clearly marked as a PDF. 3) I choose between new window/same window based on context (particularly what I know about the target audience). But I do lean towards new windows. The reasons for choosing new window: 1) In IE, the PDF will hijack the browser and - very slowly - attempt to load the PDF content inside the frame. It won't launch a separate Acrobat window with the PDF, as it should. 2) You only get a cut-down set of interface options when trying to view the PDF within IE. 3) In my experience there's a reasonable risk that the IE/Acrobat/PDF mashup will break and crash the window. You lose the web page as well. 4) No matter what browser, as I said before PDFs are separate from the originating web content and should get a separate window. When launching any new window, I favour a simple target=_blank or the ALA method if users would benefit from more detailed control of the popup (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/popuplinks/). Basically my view there is that scripting should enhance the experience but the page should remain functional without it. Preferably it should function in much the same way, which is usually not possible but in this case it's entirely within our grasp. cheers, h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
If I'm sure the PDF is intended for downloading, not for direct viewing in browser I force its download with headers (like Content-Type: application/x-download etc.) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
