Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi all, I should have mentioned that (as of r5987) the code in .../trunk builds WSJT10 so that JT65 decoding is done in sfrsd2, and kvasd[.exe] is no longer required. If we no problems arise, we can probably leave it this way and do away with all non-free code. -- Joe On 10/20/2015

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Joe, When you all are ready, I'll look at what needs doing to update the JTSDK builds and InnoSetup files to ommit the KVASD binary inclusions for WSJT. Both changes should be fairly simple. 73's Greg, KI7MT On 10/20/2015 14:13, Joe Taylor wrote: > Hi all, > > I should have mentioned

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Joe, Yup, I was just looking at what all you've done. For Windows, it looks like, all we need to do is update the CX_Freeze files in Makefile.jtsdk2; remove kvasd.exe kvasd.dat For Linux, the Makefile does not include KVASD so should be no trouble there. I looked through / verified the

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Thanks, Greg. I think I've already made the changes necessary to make JTSDK build using sfrsd2. I have *not* removed the kvasd stuff, however. -- Joe On 10/20/2015 4:36 PM, Greg Beam wrote: > Hi Joe, > > When you all are ready, I'll look at what needs doing to update the >

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve and all, I will be traveling and mostly out of touch for the next three days, so I want to bring you up-to-date on what I've been doing. Directory .../trunk/rsdtest now has code for three programs that do their Reed-Solomon decoding in sfrsd2. rsdtest - reads s3() data from file

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi STeve, I think I understand what's going on with the less-than-perfect selection of candidate frequencies at which to attempt JT65 decoding. I hope to spend some time on it in the next couple of days. If I don't get it sorted out then, it may be delayed for about a week. I'll be away

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Joe, > Correct False > Program Decodes Decodes Decoder > -- > JT65-HF2329 24BM + kvasd > WSJT-X r5912 2249 0BM + kvasd > WSJT-X r5955 2114 0BM + sfrsd > WSJT-X r5955 1816 0BM only

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Steve, Sorry, I should have answered before. See lines 73-74 in jt65a.f90. I turned these on when the Sync setting (on main window) is negative. Setting sync=0 (or any positive number) should suppress output when there was no decode. -- Joe On 10/2/2015 11:02 PM, Steven Franke

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Joe, > JT65-HF2329 24BM + kvasd > WSJT-X r5912 2249 0BM + kvasd > WSJT-X r5955 2114 0BM + sfrsd > WSJT-X r5955 1816 0BM only For what it’s worth - on a batch of my HF files, r5922, using either kvasd or sfrsd and with the ncount threshold

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve and all, On 10/2/2015 9:50 AM, Steven Franke wrote: Just re-read what I sent last night - I should have said “… 8 or more no-decodes and only 2 decodes”. It is likely that many of those no-decodes will eventually turn into decodes when the algorithm is properly tuned. Thanks for the

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve, On 10/2/2015 7:26 PM, Steven Franke wrote: > Very interesting Joe. Is there any reason to think that JT-65 and > WSJT-X use the same symbol metrics? Most of the signal processing in JT65-HF is Fortran code copied directly from WSJT. I haven't checked carefully to see what changes

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Joe, Yeah, I've been working S.Pac / IO ( or trying too ) on 20m in the (AM) my time. Been after VR2, FR5 but every (W6) in CA is calling me, I I really don't understand it as I can work W6 almost 24x7 on 20m, but when FR5, VR2, YB8, 3B9 are on and coming in well, I really don't want to

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

As Joe said, for EME we probably want to run very large numbers of trials. If one were to start multiple calls to sfrsd2, each with its own random seed, all at once, and ensure that each call runs in its own thread, would this accomplish much of what we are after? Steve > On Sep 30, 2015, at

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Bill, Thanks for the information on Apple compilers. Yes, there are several possible ways to slice the JT65 decoding task that could benefit from parallel processing. Divide-by-frequency is one possibility. A disadvantage is that it would provide little or no help in most EME situations,

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Mike -- I was fearful that as soon as I committed code using sfrsd that anyone could compile, there would be reports that "it did this" or "it didn't do that" ... It is *far* too early for any casual on-the-air comparisons to be useful. The new sfrsd code has simply been "dropped in" after

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve, I'm scratching my head... At SVN revision r5949, WSJT-X v1.6.1 uses sfrsd2 in place of kvasd. It seems to work well, but so far the only tuning I've done is to try both the original (kvasd-inspired) metrics and the simple ones based on p1/psum and p2/psum. In this instance the

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

If r5949 is indeed using sfrsd (is it just calling it kvasd to make the code happy?) Saw the 1st instance of different decodes at 17347running WSJT-X 1.6.0 r5881 along side. Got two decodes on r5949 at -15 and -20 that 1.6.0 did not see. Follow at 1738 by a -1 decode on 1.6.0 that r5949 did

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Joe - Just a quick note - I played a bit over lunch and can verify that things tune right up if the erasure matrix is matched to the metric. So far, no apparent advantage for the p1/psum form, but I haven’t tried the mr2 probabilities yet. Will look at it some more tonight. Steve k9an > On

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi, Please modify the Makefiles in the rsdtest directory, so that they can be used in the Linux environment too. Thank you. Best 88 de Claude -- ___ wsjt-devel mailing list

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve, On 9/30/2015 2:57 PM, Steven Franke wrote: > As Joe said, for EME we probably want to run very large numbers > of trials. If one were to start multiple calls to sfrsd2, each > with its own random seed, all at once, and ensure that each > call runs in its own thread, would this

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Claude, I have done all of my recent development work on sfrsd2.c on a linux virtual machine, and the Makefile in rsdtest works for me. Steve k9an > On Sep 30, 2015, at 1:43 AM, Claude Frantz > wrote: > > Hi, > > Please modify the Makefiles in the rsdtest

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Thanks Joe. Interesting. It could be, I suppose, that with large ntrials the mr2syms are helping us find more decodes, but they are rejected by the soft distance check. In any case, I agree that we should just stick with the current erasures-only scheme. but let's keep sfrsd3 on the side and

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve, Agreed on all counts. A surprise discovery: it seems that all of our recent tests have been using the original code in .../trunk/demod64a.f90, with its exp(x) symbol metrics. I tried switching back to your simple p1/psum, p2/psum mnetrics computed in .../trunk/rsdtest/demod64b.f90,

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

> A surprise discovery: it seems that all of our recent tests have been > using the original code in .../trunk/demod64a.f90, with its exp(x) > symbol metrics. I tried switching back to your simple p1/psum, p2/psum > mnetrics computed in .../trunk/rsdtest/demod64b.f90, with much degraded >

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve, On 9/30/2015 8:52 AM, Steven Franke wrote: >> A surprise discovery: it seems that all of our recent tests have been >> using the original code in .../trunk/demod64a.f90, with its exp(x) >> symbol metrics. I tried switching back to your simple p1/psum, p2/psum >> mnetrics computed in

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Joe, > On 9/30/2015 2:57 PM, Steven Franke wrote: >> As Joe said, for EME we probably want to run very large numbers >> of trials. If one were to start multiple calls to sfrsd2, each >> with its own random seed, all at once, and ensure that each >> call runs in its own thread, would this

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

On 09/30/2015 01:14 PM, Steven Franke wrote: Hi Steven, > Hi Claude, I have done all of my recent development work on sfrsd2.c > on a linux virtual machine, and the Makefile in rsdtest works for > me. Steve k9an At my site, it ends in the following manner: gcc -I. -DWIN32 -DWin32 -DBIGSYM

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi all, For the record: I have built a version of WSJT that calls sfrsd (with ntrials=1) rather than kvasd. Results in line 20, below, show that for the test data the new decoder is slightly better than kvasd (line 10). # Test Decodes False Time

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Claude, I have added the file int.h to the rsdtest directory. Please note that successfully executing this Makefile is unlikely to produce anything that you will find useful. -- Joe, K1JT On 9/30/2015 10:59 AM, Claude Frantz wrote: > On 09/30/2015 01:14 PM, Steven Franke wrote: > >

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

I'm not a Mac guy...but this claims a solution... http://stackoverflow.com/questions/29057437/compile-openmp-programs-with-gcc-compiler-on-os-x-yosemite On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Joe Taylor wrote: > Hi Bill, > > A week or so ago you wrote "On the concurrency side

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

On 30/09/2015 16:57, Joe Taylor wrote: > Hi Bill, Hi Joe, > > A week or so ago you wrote "On the concurrency side the option to use > OpenMP is not available as there is no C/C++ OpenMP available on Mac". > > Aren't we using OpenMP now in jt9[.exe], on all platforms? Are you > saying that on the

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Bill, A week or so ago you wrote "On the concurrency side the option to use OpenMP is not available as there is no C/C++ OpenMP available on Mac". Aren't we using OpenMP now in jt9[.exe], on all platforms? Are you saying that on the Mac we can use OpenMP from Fortran, but not from C/C++ ??

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Greg, Amusing tidbit. I just finished building WSJT-X v1.6.1 r5949 on my in-shack computer. The attached screen shot shows its first decodes of on-the-air JT65 signals, including KI7MT. -- Joe --

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

So the failures are a separate section? So a quad core should get something approaching 3X barring cache contention. Question would be how often in real life do failures occur? And would you make the # of trials dependent on # of cores? On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 3:50 PM, Joe Taylor

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Mike -- On 9/29/2015 5:29 PM, Michael Black wrote: > So the failures are a separate section? No. Have you looked at what the decoder is doing? If 25 or fewer of 63 received symbols are in error, the deterministic Berlekamp_Massey (BM) algorithm is guaranteed to succeed. With more than 25

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Excellent news! This will make both programs MUCH easier to get into distributions such as Fedora and Debian without the need for hokey workarounds. Thanks, Richard KF5OIM --

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

GM all, We have made excellent progress on the quest Steve started toward an open-source Reed Solomon decoder that's as good or better than the closed-source Koetter-Vardy algorithm. This message aims to be a summary of results up to now (for our own future reference), followed by some

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Joe, Interesting results! I agree with your interpretation of the differences between the histograms for the “all attempts” and “successful attempts” cases, and I also agree that your results seem to point to a needed adjustment in the erasure probabilities. I guess that this process of

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Steve -- That one always did look a bit odd. Quite possibly I made a mistake, trying to do too many things at once. I will investigate further... but it may be not until Monday. -- Joe On 9/25/2015 11:34 PM, Steven Franke wrote: > Hi Joe - > >> 17.WSJT + kvasd (SFM no ntest)

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve, On 9/26/2015 10:40 AM, Steven Franke wrote: > Don’t worry about it Joe - I tried scaling up my metrics by a factor > of 4 and then kvasd gave me 644 decodes. So it’s clear that kvasd > wants bigger numbers. For now, I’ll just focus on trying optimize sfrsd… > > Your rsdtest looks like a

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Don’t worry about it Joe - I tried scaling up my metrics by a factor of 4 and then kvasd gave me 644 decodes. So it’s clear that kvasd wants bigger numbers. For now, I’ll just focus on trying optimize sfrsd… Your rsdtest looks like a good way to do quick runs to test sfrsd. At your leisure,

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Joe - A correction - it turns out I had ntrials set to 2: current sfrsd ntrials 2: 709/1000 current sfrsd ntrials 1: 665/1000 Still, a worthwhile improvement. Steve > On Sep 26, 2015, at 5:18 PM, Joe Taylor wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > That's great! I've got

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve, That's great! I've got almost the same results here, obtained in a slightly different way. I carved the p1-rank, p2/p1 plane into 8 equal ranges for each coordinate, and accumulated 8x8 histograms for three cases: sym=mrsym, sym=mr2sym, and sym=neither. The first and last

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Can you do a plot of p1 vs p2 and show one plot with errors and one with correct? Since you have p1 in both axes you automatically get a correlation between them. And could you post a link to download the data you have with p1/p2/error/correct? Thanks Mike W9MDB On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 3:49 PM,

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Mike, Yes, I can, and have, done such a plot. As you noted, there is strong correlation between the rank of p1 and p2/p1 for each case (error and no-error). There is also correlation between p1 and p2. But the extent of correlation between p1 and p2 (or other quantities derived from them)

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Joe - Just FYI - two plots attached. These are 2D histograms of the symbol rank and p2/p1 ratio for all symbols associated with successfully decoded files from my batch of 1000 JTSim files with SNR=-24dB. Note that each of these quantities (rank, p2/p1) is invariant under any multiplicative

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Joe, > On Sep 26, 2015, at 8:54 PM, Joe Taylor wrote: > > Steve -- > > On 9/26/2015 6:31 PM, Steven Franke wrote: >> Joe - >> A correction - it turns out I had ntrials set to 2: >> >> current sfrsd ntrials 2: 709/1000 >> current sfrsd ntrials 1: 665/1000 >>

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Steve -- On 9/26/2015 6:31 PM, Steven Franke wrote: > Joe - > A correction - it turns out I had ntrials set to 2: > > current sfrsd ntrials 2: 709/1000 > current sfrsd ntrials 1: 665/1000 > > Still, a worthwhile improvement. Agreed. How did you define the erasure thresholds to get

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Joe - Is there an external way to turn off the attempts to decode the average in WSJT10? Not a big deal - I’m sure that I can figure out how to change the code to turn it off. As it stands, the program is calling the decoder to attempt to decode the averaged signal immediately after it tries

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve, Sorry, no -- you'll have to comment out those calls, or the equivalent. -- Joe On 9/25/2015 11:26 AM, Steven Franke wrote: > Joe - > > Is there an external way to turn off the attempts to decode the average in > WSJT10? Not a big deal - I’m sure that I can figure out how to

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve, Just a quick reply, after reading your thoughtful comments. Your thinking about what to try next is very similar to mine -- in particular, making use of the second-best symbol value as a substitute for simple erasures. I should have mentioned that I in my tests with ntrials=10^5

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Joe - > 17.WSJT + kvasd (SFM no ntest) 897 I can’t reproduce this test. Whenever I try to run kvasd using my metrics, I get no decodes. I have tried this using WSJT10 and WSJT-X. I have commented out the ntest/nlow check and also the birdie test. At these low SNR’s, my metrics

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve and all, I've added more lines to the table summarizing my tests of decoding weak, isolated JT65A signals. As before, the final number on each line is the number of valid decodes from a thousand files at S/N=-24 dB. 1. WSJT-X (BM only) 2 2. WSJT (BM only)

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Joe - Thanks for the new results! Getting ready for class here - so just a quick note. Your results, though more extensive than mine, point in the same direction. As it stands, sfrsd seems to be around 0.5 dB shy of kvasd. I have a long list of ideas to try to do better - but it will take

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

You might consider trying the geometric mean. Multiple probabilities should be normalized quite likely in this situation. Mike W9MDB On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 8:34 AM, Steven Franke wrote: > Hi Joe - > Thanks for the new results! Getting ready for class here - so just a

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve, I'm happy to see that our test results are fully consistent. I look forward to seeing how well sfrsd will perform in WSJT10 -- and subsequently how much we can improve the JT65 decoding sensitivity in WSJT-X. -- Joe, K1JT On 9/23/2015 9:02 PM, Steven Franke wrote: > Thanks

[wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Joe - I have committed a modification to demod64a that will compute new symbol metrics for sfrsd. This significantly improves performance. The default is to produce the normal kvasd metrics - it is necessary to go in and un-comment the sfrsd metrics to test sfrsd. It will also be necessary

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd

Hi Claude - Thanks for the feedback on sfrsd. As you discovered, it is not ready for use in QSOs. At the moment, it is still in the “proof of concept” stage, and all effort has been directed toward maximizing the probability of a successful decode. Little to no attention has been paid to

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve, Thanks for sharing some further comparisons of kvasd and sfrsd. When WSJT-X was first being expanded from a testbed for JT9 to a more capable, more general program for HF DXing, JT65A capability was added to make the program attractive to the large existing user base for that mode.

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve, On 9/23/2015 11:15 AM, Steven Franke wrote: > Hi Joe - > Yes - I hope that I didn’t give the impression that I was being > critical of any of your quick integration decisions. Not in the least!! I *very* much appreciate your input, and the expertise you bring to this particular part

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Hi Steve and all, Here's an update on my tests of decoding weak JT65A signals. I used 1000 files generated by SimJT, each containing one JT65A signal at S/N = -24 dB. I am using current code revisions of WSJT-X v1.6.1 (with minor edits noted below) and WSJT v10.0. For each line in the

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd testing

Thanks Joe - Your results in cases 1,3,4,5,7 agree with mine, to within a few decodes either way. All of my runs were on OS X with sfrsd compiled using gcc - but perhaps this produces a different set of random erasure vectors than either linux or windows. Just now, I’ve also confirmed your

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd

Hi Joe - I will likely not make much progress on the decoder stuff til next week, so I wanted to pass along the following information in case that you get around to doing some tests — I’ve tested the decoder on 2 separate batches of HF .wav files and also on 3 batches of SimJT weak-signal

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd

Hi Steve, Congratulations on a really first-rate piece of work!! I hope to find some time next week (or possibly the week after) to do some independent tests -- presumably, to confirm your results. I believe your test used simulated data on an AWGN channel. It might be useful to try also

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd

Joe - For the record, here are the results of analyzing 1000 SimJT JT65A files with sync level set to 0 (a setting of -1 gave the same results) and with Rx frequency set equal to the simulated signal’s frequency: kvasd (this result should be for the high-effort “on frequency” setting):

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd

Hi Bill, Thanks for the comments. I will have to use the Google to learn about the Futures and Promises model… I have been looking at this: http://clang-omp.github.io/ I have no idea what shape it’s in, but it looked like a potentially easy way for a low-level programmer like me to

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd

On 20/09/2015 16:11, Steven Franke wrote: > You have probably already noticed the fact that the sfrsd should be easy to > parallelize. It should be possible to test a bunch of candidate vectors at > once. Perhaps that is something worth investigating for sfrsd. In an earlier > thread, Bill had

[wsjt-devel] sfrsd

Hi Steve, I've looked again at the innards of sfrsd. I'm *much* impressed by what you have done. Soon, it may be time to look again at the upstream decisions made in the JT65 decoding chain -- decisions that determine what symbol vectors are passed on to the actual decoder. Among other

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd

Thanks Joe! This has been a fun project, and I’m learning a lot from it. I used your SimJT program to generate 1000 JT65A files at -24 dB SNR. Here’s what I get: kvasd (with Rx frequency set to 3000, so this should be the low-effort setting): 106 decodes out of 1000 (10.6%) sfrsd 5000

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd

Hi Steve -- On 9/19/2015 6:03 PM, Steven Franke wrote: > I have just now realized that the sync threshold is higher for “off > frequency” signals. Since I had set Rx freq to 3000, the results > reported below were obtained using the higher wideband sync threshold. > That probably explains the

Re: [wsjt-devel] sfrsd

I have just now realized that the sync threshold is higher for “off frequency” signals. Since I had set Rx freq to 3000, the results reported below were obtained using the higher wideband sync threshold. That probably explains the lower than expected yield. I’m re-running with Rx frequency set