Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Peter Collinson via X11-users]

Does this help?

You can create a symlink to somewhere from root - then automount somewhere on 
the Data partition.

https://derflounder.wordpress.com/2020/01/18/creating-root-level-directories-and-symbolic-links-on-macos-catalina/
 


Caveat. I have no direct experience of this.

Regards
--
Peter Collinson

> On 29 Jun 2020, at 10:13, René J.V. Bertin via X11-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Sunday June 28 2020 00:45:57 Tom Lane wrote:
> 
>>> It also works without reboot to restart autoFS:
>>> sudo automount -vc
>> 
>> Hm, that used to work, but for me it does not since Catalina.
>> I do not think automount has enough privilege to create the
>> /net symlink if it missed the chance to do so during system
>> startup.
> 
> If it helps to disable SIP (and family), why not do that - do you feel you 
> really need it given your clearly not the average Joe User who "works" out of 
> Starbucks' and the like? ;)
> 
> Quoth Derek Currie
>>> (also ARM architecture!)…
>> 
>> Sorry but no. The PowerPC alliance of Apple, IBM and Motorola were known as
>> AIM. There was no connection to ARM architecture, apart from PPC chips also
>> being RISC architecture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC
>> 
>> Apple was involved with and investing in ARM early on. ARM architecture was
>> used in the Apple Newton! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture
> 
> My bad. Whatever it was from the article on ARM that got me on the wrong 
> foot, I cannot find it again. Worst thing, somewhere I knew, hence the 
> exclamation mark...
> 
> Oh well, a branch of my family can be proud, they hopped on the ARM bandwagon 
> when the first Acorn fell off the tree, while in my branch we stuck to the 
> 650x and x86 lineage 8-)
> 
> R.
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Sunday June 28 2020 00:45:57 Tom Lane wrote:

>> It also works without reboot to restart autoFS:
>> sudo automount -vc
>
>Hm, that used to work, but for me it does not since Catalina.
>I do not think automount has enough privilege to create the
>/net symlink if it missed the chance to do so during system
>startup.

If it helps to disable SIP (and family), why not do that - do you feel you 
really need it given your clearly not the average Joe User who "works" out of 
Starbucks' and the like? ;)

Quoth Derek Currie
>> (also ARM architecture!)…
> 
> Sorry but no. The PowerPC alliance of Apple, IBM and Motorola were known as
> AIM. There was no connection to ARM architecture, apart from PPC chips also
> being RISC architecture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC
> 
> Apple was involved with and investing in ARM early on. ARM architecture was
> used in the Apple Newton! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture

My bad. Whatever it was from the article on ARM that got me on the wrong foot, 
I cannot find it again. Worst thing, somewhere I knew, hence the exclamation 
mark...

Oh well, a branch of my family can be proud, they hopped on the ARM bandwagon 
when the first Acorn fell off the tree, while in my branch we stuck to the 650x 
and x86 lineage 8-)

R.
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Derek G Currie via X11-users]

Correction: 

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 3:37 PM, René J.V. Bertin via X11-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Note that ARM is bi-endian; apparently it does default to little-endian, but 
> we all know that Apple's PPC machines (also ARM architecture!)…

Sorry but no. The PowerPC alliance of Apple, IBM and Motorola were known as 
AIM. There was no connection to ARM architecture, apart from PPC chips also 
being RISC architecture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC

Apple was involved with and investing in ARM early on. ARM architecture was 
used in the Apple Newton!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture

To quote from the Wikipedia article:

> In the late 1980s, Apple Computer 
>  and VLSI Technology 
>  started working with Acorn on 
> newer versions of the Arm core. In 1990, Acorn spun off the design team into 
> a new company named Advanced RISC Machines Ltd., which became Arm Ltd when 
> its parent company, Arm Holdings  
> plc, floated on the London Stock Exchange 
>  and NASDAQ 
>  in 1998. The new Apple-Arm work would 
> eventually evolve into the Arm6, first released in early 1992. Apple used the 
> Arm6-based Arm610 as the basis for their Apple Newton 
>  PDA.


:-Derek


Derek G Currie
derekcur...@mac.com
derekcur...@lavabit.com
derekcur...@protonmail.com
derekcur...@tutanota.com




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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Saturday June 27 2020 15:47:17 Don MacQueen wrote:

>As far as I can tell, X Windows is still the best environment for certain 
>types of work, including remote computing. I would agree that XWin users are 
>outside Apple’s concept of their customer base.

At some point Jeremy told me that Apple also care about customers like us, who 
use Macs as Unix workstations with a "just works" desktop environment. Of 
course that was back in the day where Linux didn't yet fall into that same 
category (and the Aqua/Cocoa/whatever DE still gave the kind of control I 
want). Heck, Apple may still have had their "Apple in science" pages up... *) 
So lots of water under lots of bridges.

Jeremy also told me that if ever Wayland could be made to run as it should on 
Mac, that would also address a number of XQuartz issues (because Wayland does 
provide to run unported or simply remote X11 applications, apparently). I 
haven't followed this myself, holding out as I am on OS X 10.9 but I do notice 
that the number of missing kernel features required for the basic Wayland 
libraries has been dwindling.
Advances in this area would probably have to be driving by demand from the 
communities who most need X11 (and some of which probably also have "easy" 
access to computer science students looking for interesting/useful projects ;) )

>(btw, if one wants “always there when you need it” availability of a network 
>file system, NFS with automounting is still superior to SMB and AFS, in my 
>experience)

I use the "fish:" protocol in KDE (e.g. Dolphin) for that, but do indeed fall 
back to NFS if I need to transfer larger amounts of data and cannot use rsync 
(which would be a lot faster). What AFS are you talking about here, A standing 
for Apple, or for Andrew (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenAFS)? I looked into 
the latter recently because NFS does have a number of annoying issues for use 
at home where not all computers are on all the time, but got discouraged by the 
sheer amount of set-up work required so I cannot say anything good about if 
from personal experience.
But the "actively developped" bit coming from an independent foundation does 
sound reassuring in the context of "will Apple continue to support/allow ".

*) Seriously, I'm a bit surprised at the brand loyalty. I've left science 
almost 10y ago now but haven't heard anything that suggests that the chronic 
dwindling funding issue has been  dealt with (except of course in "hot" topics 
like Covid research ;)). It was already hard for me to justify the "Apple Tax" 
back in the day, right now it'd be simply impossible (esp. if the software 
you're running requires X11 and so is mostly likely not locked-in to a specific 
platform).

R.
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Tom Lane via X11-users]

Maximilian Ebert via X11-users  writes:
> It also works without reboot to restart autoFS:
> sudo automount -vc

Hm, that used to work, but for me it does not since Catalina.
I do not think automount has enough privilege to create the
/net symlink if it missed the chance to do so during system
startup.

regards, tom lane
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Maximilian Ebert via X11-users]

It also works without reboot to restart autoFS:

sudo automount -vc

So edit the auto_master and then run the above command.

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> On Jun 28, 2020, at 12:32 AM, Tom Lane  wrote:
> 
> Maximilian Ebert via X11-users  > writes:
>> tom, this is exactly what I was thinking! I couldn’t find a way to fix the 
>> NFS thing.
> 
> It's not *hard*, it's just annoying.
> 
> (1) Edit /etc/auto_master to uncomment the line
> 
> #/net-hosts  -nobrowse,hidefromfinder,nosuid
> 
> (2) Reboot.  (There does not seem to be any lesser way to get this
> to take effect, because the /net symlink isn't there at all otherwise;
> and you can't cause it to be created after / has been made read-only.)
> 
> I filed a bug complaining about Catalina re-commenting that line
> on every update, but it's been radio silence so far ... which is
> par for the course with Apple.  I wonder why they bother to have
> a bug reporter mechanism when it's such a black hole.
> 
>   regards, tom lane


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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Tom Lane via X11-users]

Maximilian Ebert via X11-users  writes:
> tom, this is exactly what I was thinking! I couldn’t find a way to fix the 
> NFS thing.

It's not *hard*, it's just annoying.

(1) Edit /etc/auto_master to uncomment the line

#/net-hosts  -nobrowse,hidefromfinder,nosuid

(2) Reboot.  (There does not seem to be any lesser way to get this
to take effect, because the /net symlink isn't there at all otherwise;
and you can't cause it to be created after / has been made read-only.)

I filed a bug complaining about Catalina re-commenting that line
on every update, but it's been radio silence so far ... which is
par for the course with Apple.  I wonder why they bother to have
a bug reporter mechanism when it's such a black hole.

regards, tom lane
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Maximilian Ebert via X11-users]

tom, this is exactly what I was thinking! I couldn’t find a way to fix the NFS 
thing.

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> On Jun 27, 2020, at 10:50 PM, Tom Lane via X11-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Don MacQueen via X11-users  > writes:
>> As far as I can tell, X Windows is still the best environment for certain 
>> types of work, including remote computing. I would agree that XWin users are 
>> outside Apple’s concept of their customer base.
> 
> Yeah.  But AFAICS, there's not really any risk of X11 not working on
> next-gen macOS.  What we're whining about here is only that there won't
> be an "officially supported" build, and we'll have to get it from MacPorts
> or build it ourselves.
> 
>> But, remarkably, even after upgrading one of my machines to Catalina I
>> was *still* able to edit /etc/auto_master and create /etc/auto_nfs to
>> enable NFS auto mounting of an exported file system.
> 
> *This* is what worries me.  Every time I do an OS update, Catalina reverts
> /etc/auto_master to disable NFS automounts.  I'm afraid that that means
> Apple is thinking of dropping NFS support altogether --- and that does not
> seem like something that can be stuck back on top, like X11 can be.
> 
>   regards, tom lane
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Don MacQueen via X11-users]

As far as I can tell, X Windows is still the best environment for certain types 
of work, including remote computing. I would agree that XWin users are outside 
Apple’s concept of their customer base.

But, remarkably, even after upgrading one of my machines to Catalina I was 
*still* able to edit /etc/auto_master and create /etc/auto_nfs to enable NFS 
auto mounting of an exported file system. So there’s hope…  (btw, if one wants 
“always there when you need it” availability of a network file system, NFS with 
automounting is still superior to SMB and AFS, in my experience)

Don MacQueen
m...@comcast.net



> On Jun 27, 2020, at 2:51 PM, Mick Mueck via X11-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> I use X11 on OS X every day, and I'd be screwed if it didn't exist. That 
> being said, let's be real here. X11 isn't even on viable life support and 
> it's been that way for years, plus it's about the worst implementation of X11 
> on any platform out there (just calling it like I see it). Seriously, Apple 
> don't care about X11 one little bit, and with all the work they're looking 
> down the barrel of with the new hardware they're going to care even less. 
> That being said, nothing would please me more than being proven wrong!
> 
> There's someone like me in every crowd, sorry. I'm a circuit designer, not a 
> software developer - if I could program worth a lick I'd chip in and help. 
> I'm very glad that we even have what we have, but I just don't see things 
> getting any better.
> 
> Bracing myself to be shot down in flames - I surely asked for it...
> 
>> On 2020.0627, at 17:34, JF Mezei via X11-users > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Platforms State of the Union:
>> 
>> https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/102/
>> 
>> at 15:30
>> And they will be amazing Unix Machine fopr developpers and scientific
>> communities for any software they like.
>> 
>> Perhaps some pressure on Apple to produce a new XQuarts kit that can
>> easily be installed on the Macs? (since they mentioned Unix apps for
>> developpers and scientific community).
>> 
>> 
>> At 20:20:
>> Discussion on the porting of open sources software.
>> Homebrews and Macports in the list.  (as are Zlig abd FFmpeg).
>> But XQuarts not there.
>> 
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Mick Mueck via X11-users]

I use X11 on OS X every day, and I'd be screwed if it didn't exist. That being 
said, let's be real here. X11 isn't even on viable life support and it's been 
that way for years, plus it's about the worst implementation of X11 on any 
platform out there (just calling it like I see it). Seriously, Apple don't care 
about X11 one little bit, and with all the work they're looking down the barrel 
of with the new hardware they're going to care even less. That being said, 
nothing would please me more than being proven wrong!

There's someone like me in every crowd, sorry. I'm a circuit designer, not a 
software developer - if I could program worth a lick I'd chip in and help. I'm 
very glad that we even have what we have, but I just don't see things getting 
any better.

Bracing myself to be shot down in flames - I surely asked for it...

> On 2020.0627, at 17:34, JF Mezei via X11-users  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Platforms State of the Union:
> 
> https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/102/
> 
> at 15:30
> And they will be amazing Unix Machine fopr developpers and scientific
> communities for any software they like.
> 
> Perhaps some pressure on Apple to produce a new XQuarts kit that can
> easily be installed on the Macs? (since they mentioned Unix apps for
> developpers and scientific community).
> 
> 
> At 20:20:
> Discussion on the porting of open sources software.
> Homebrews and Macports in the list.  (as are Zlig abd FFmpeg).
> But XQuarts not there.
> 
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[JF Mezei via X11-users]

Platforms State of the Union:

https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/102/

at 15:30
And they will be amazing Unix Machine fopr developpers and scientific
communities for any software they like.

Perhaps some pressure on Apple to produce a new XQuarts kit that can
easily be installed on the Macs? (since they mentioned Unix apps for
developpers and scientific community).


At 20:20:
Discussion on the porting of open sources software.
Homebrews and Macports in the list.  (as are Zlig abd FFmpeg).
But XQuarts not there.

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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Friday June 26 2020 16:35:31 JF Mezei wrote:

>Since ARM and Intel share little-endian and 64 bits, the code should
>compile cleanly.

For the 64-bit aspect yes (though I expect that the X server will compile 
cleanly on 32 bit systems as well). Endianness typically does not cause issues 
at compile time, it's (almost?) purely a runtime aspect.

Note that ARM is bi-endian; apparently it does default to little-endian, but we 
all know that Apple's PPC machines (also ARM architecture!) were through and 
through big-endian (so much so that I had simply written them off as 
big-endian, period). With good reason AFAIC; it makes reasoning about (and 
implementing) just about any operation at the bit level (pixels...) such much 
easier. Well, to me at least ...

> unix applications will be supported

Did he give a definition of what those are? I'm guessing that the OS is going 
to remain a certified Unix, which would make any supported app a Unix 
application ;)

R
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Maximilian Ebert via X11-users]

Actually I remember now that I saw that OpenGL remains in a YouTube video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfhAtxdLDLM 


So I am not sure if it is true. But he says so.

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> On Jun 26, 2020, at 9:43 PM, Maximilian Ebert  wrote:
> 
> I saw in the documentation that OpenGL will ship with ARM64 Big Sur.
> 
> --
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> support inquiries: supp...@chemcomp.com 
> 
> 
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> 
>> On Jun 26, 2020, at 4:35 PM, JF Mezei via X11-users 
>> mailto:x11-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Couple of generic comments:
>> 
>> Since ARM and Intel share little-endian and 64 bits, the code should
>> compile cleanly.
>> 
>> However, Apple has mentioned that it will be using its own graphics
>> cards on the new ARM-based Macs I am more concerned about whether the
>> graphical API used by XQuartz continues to be supported.
>> 
>> 
>> What is interesting is that in the keynote, Craig F explicitely
>> mentioned unix applications will be supported, and they also provided a
>> list of public do,ain apps they had already ported. I would have to go
>> back to that 2 secodn slide to see of Xquartz was there. I had just
>> spotted ffmpeg.
>> 
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Maximilian Ebert via X11-users]

I saw in the documentation that OpenGL will ship with ARM64 Big Sur.

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> On Jun 26, 2020, at 4:35 PM, JF Mezei via X11-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Couple of generic comments:
> 
> Since ARM and Intel share little-endian and 64 bits, the code should
> compile cleanly.
> 
> However, Apple has mentioned that it will be using its own graphics
> cards on the new ARM-based Macs I am more concerned about whether the
> graphical API used by XQuartz continues to be supported.
> 
> 
> What is interesting is that in the keynote, Craig F explicitely
> mentioned unix applications will be supported, and they also provided a
> list of public do,ain apps they had already ported. I would have to go
> back to that 2 secodn slide to see of Xquartz was there. I had just
> spotted ffmpeg.
> 
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[JF Mezei via X11-users]

Couple of generic comments:

Since ARM and Intel share little-endian and 64 bits, the code should
compile cleanly.

However, Apple has mentioned that it will be using its own graphics
cards on the new ARM-based Macs I am more concerned about whether the
graphical API used by XQuartz continues to be supported.


What is interesting is that in the keynote, Craig F explicitely
mentioned unix applications will be supported, and they also provided a
list of public do,ain apps they had already ported. I would have to go
back to that 2 secodn slide to see of Xquartz was there. I had just
spotted ffmpeg.

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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Friday June 26 2020 09:40:25 Peter Collinson wrote:
>I moved to the MacPorts X server when I finally felt brave enough to switch to 
>Catalina. It seems to work the same. 

I installed the -devel version a while back, but maybe by now the regular port 
ships a newer version. I'd say it works better: XQuartz had started to give me 
issues (crashing, not starting correctly) even on 10.9.5 . AFAICT the MacPorts 
version is rock solid.

R
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Thursday June 25 2020 22:25:16 Maximilian Ebert wrote:
>
>A pre-built would still be easier than compiling via macports etc. any reason 
>why no-one make new binary bundles?

MacPorts should provide binaries of the required ports (or at least you 
shouldn't have to do anything more for installing them from source (supposing 
you already have Xcode set up but your sig suggests that is already the case).

> If someone ports X11 to new Mac ARM chips, would that make it easy to port
> to iPad as well?

A priori only if the same drivers can be used one way or another, and of course 
that port should benefit from any Apple/ARM specific performance improvements 
(and potential issues related to endianness, of course). But all that won't 
give you any more control over what you can install or not (or should I say, 
what the average user can install, who doesn't jailbreak, doesn't pay Apple a 
yearly fee or has a computing dept that takes care of such matters).

R.
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Mike Alexander via X11-users]

On 25 Jun 2020, at 22:25, Maximilian Ebert via X11-users wrote:

This sounds encouraging at least :) lets hope we can save x11 one more 
time. A pre-built would still be easier than compiling via macports 
etc. any reason why no-one make new binary bundles?


If you use the default variants MacPorts will download precompiled 
binaries for most things and you don't have to recompile them on your 
machine.


  Mike Alexander
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Judith via X11-users]

If someone ports X11 to new Mac ARM chips, would that make it easy to port to 
iPad as well?  Or is there already a good native app for iPad (in particular 
aimed at iPad Pro with keyboard and trackpad)?


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 25, 2020, at 20:25, Maximilian Ebert via X11-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> This sounds encouraging at least :) lets hope we can save x11 one more time. 
> A pre-built would still be easier than compiling via macports etc. any reason 
> why no-one make new binary bundles?
> 
> --
> Maximilian Ebert
> Application Scientist
> Chemical Computing Group | www.chemcomp.com meb...@chemcomp.com | +1 (514) 
> 393-1055 For support inquiries: supp...@chemcomp.com
> 
> 
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> 
> Manage Communications: www.chemcomp.com/Manage_Subscription.htm
> 
>> On Jun 25, 2020, at 6:58 PM, Jonathan Prescott via X11-users 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The “whole bunch more” is the customization of the ARM architecture, memory 
>> system enchancement, new GPU architectures, core designs, controller 
>> designs, Neural Engine and other specialized processors all on one chip (4 
>> nm TSMC fab).  The only thing that is “ARM” is the instruction set 
>> architecture.
>> 
>> Jonathan
>> 
>>> On Jun 25, 2020, at 6:42 PM, René J.V. Bertin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Thursday June 25 2020 16:21:36 Jonathan Prescott wrote:
>>> 
>>> Peachy O:-)
>>> 
>>> I guess it was coming, giving how they've been making them behave more and 
>>> more like giant iPads with keyboards and such...
>>> Oh well, it was already clear that I'd never buy a new Mac anymore.
>>> 
 Based on the announcements at WWDC, Macs are going to transition to “Apple 
 Silicon” based on Apple implementation of ARM64, plus a whole bunch more
>>> 
>>> One *could* read this as "a whole bunch of other computer makers are going 
>>> to transition" and "Apple will become a silicon pusher". That (the 1st bit) 
>>> *would* be interesting...
>>> 
>>> Either way I assuming there will be a new Rosetta framework, so for some 
>>> time at least existing x86 applications should continue to function more or 
>>> less normally. I seem to remember that XQuartz/PPC ran quite properly under 
>>> Rosetta, am I wrong?
>>> 
>>> R.
>>> 
>> 
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Maximilian Ebert via X11-users]

This sounds encouraging at least :) lets hope we can save x11 one more time. A 
pre-built would still be easier than compiling via macports etc. any reason why 
no-one make new binary bundles?

--
Maximilian Ebert
Application Scientist
Chemical Computing Group | www.chemcomp.com meb...@chemcomp.com | +1 (514) 
393-1055 For support inquiries: supp...@chemcomp.com


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> On Jun 25, 2020, at 6:58 PM, Jonathan Prescott via X11-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> The “whole bunch more” is the customization of the ARM architecture, memory 
> system enchancement, new GPU architectures, core designs, controller designs, 
> Neural Engine and other specialized processors all on one chip (4 nm TSMC 
> fab).  The only thing that is “ARM” is the instruction set architecture.
> 
> Jonathan
> 
>> On Jun 25, 2020, at 6:42 PM, René J.V. Bertin  wrote:
>> 
>> On Thursday June 25 2020 16:21:36 Jonathan Prescott wrote:
>> 
>> Peachy O:-)
>> 
>> I guess it was coming, giving how they've been making them behave more and 
>> more like giant iPads with keyboards and such...
>> Oh well, it was already clear that I'd never buy a new Mac anymore.
>> 
>>> Based on the announcements at WWDC, Macs are going to transition to “Apple 
>>> Silicon” based on Apple implementation of ARM64, plus a whole bunch more
>> 
>> One *could* read this as "a whole bunch of other computer makers are going 
>> to transition" and "Apple will become a silicon pusher". That (the 1st bit) 
>> *would* be interesting...
>> 
>> Either way I assuming there will be a new Rosetta framework, so for some 
>> time at least existing x86 applications should continue to function more or 
>> less normally. I seem to remember that XQuartz/PPC ran quite properly under 
>> Rosetta, am I wrong?
>> 
>> R.
>> 
> 
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Jonathan Prescott via X11-users]

The “whole bunch more” is the customization of the ARM architecture, memory 
system enchancement, new GPU architectures, core designs, controller designs, 
Neural Engine and other specialized processors all on one chip (4 nm TSMC fab). 
 The only thing that is “ARM” is the instruction set architecture.

Jonathan

> On Jun 25, 2020, at 6:42 PM, René J.V. Bertin  wrote:
> 
> On Thursday June 25 2020 16:21:36 Jonathan Prescott wrote:
> 
> Peachy O:-)
> 
> I guess it was coming, giving how they've been making them behave more and 
> more like giant iPads with keyboards and such...
> Oh well, it was already clear that I'd never buy a new Mac anymore.
> 
>> Based on the announcements at WWDC, Macs are going to transition to “Apple 
>> Silicon” based on Apple implementation of ARM64, plus a whole bunch more
> 
> One *could* read this as "a whole bunch of other computer makers are going to 
> transition" and "Apple will become a silicon pusher". That (the 1st bit) 
> *would* be interesting...
> 
> Either way I assuming there will be a new Rosetta framework, so for some time 
> at least existing x86 applications should continue to function more or less 
> normally. I seem to remember that XQuartz/PPC ran quite properly under 
> Rosetta, am I wrong?
> 
> R.
> 

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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Jonathan Prescott via X11-users]

Yes, they already demonstrated Intel-programs running on MacOS Big Sur (version 
10.16, or is it OS X 11, no one seems to know yet) on an Apple Silicon Mac.  
They also announced new virtualization hypervisor in the new MacOS that will 
make virtual machines running Linux and Windows faster and more efficient in 
terms of power, heat, etc..  The only sticking point is Boot Camp, much of it 
depending on much Microsoft ARM64 Windows 10 can or cannot be moved to new Mac.

Jonathan

> On Jun 25, 2020, at 6:42 PM, René J.V. Bertin  wrote:
> 
> On Thursday June 25 2020 16:21:36 Jonathan Prescott wrote:
> 
> Peachy O:-)
> 
> I guess it was coming, giving how they've been making them behave more and 
> more like giant iPads with keyboards and such...
> Oh well, it was already clear that I'd never buy a new Mac anymore.
> 
>> Based on the announcements at WWDC, Macs are going to transition to “Apple 
>> Silicon” based on Apple implementation of ARM64, plus a whole bunch more
> 
> One *could* read this as "a whole bunch of other computer makers are going to 
> transition" and "Apple will become a silicon pusher". That (the 1st bit) 
> *would* be interesting...
> 
> Either way I assuming there will be a new Rosetta framework, so for some time 
> at least existing x86 applications should continue to function more or less 
> normally. I seem to remember that XQuartz/PPC ran quite properly under 
> Rosetta, am I wrong?
> 
> R.
> 

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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Thursday June 25 2020 16:21:36 Jonathan Prescott wrote:

Peachy O:-)

I guess it was coming, giving how they've been making them behave more and more 
like giant iPads with keyboards and such...
Oh well, it was already clear that I'd never buy a new Mac anymore.

>Based on the announcements at WWDC, Macs are going to transition to “Apple 
>Silicon” based on Apple implementation of ARM64, plus a whole bunch more

One *could* read this as "a whole bunch of other computer makers are going to 
transition" and "Apple will become a silicon pusher". That (the 1st bit) 
*would* be interesting...

Either way I assuming there will be a new Rosetta framework, so for some time 
at least existing x86 applications should continue to function more or less 
normally. I seem to remember that XQuartz/PPC ran quite properly under Rosetta, 
am I wrong?

R.

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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Jonathan Prescott via X11-users]

Based on the announcements at WWDC, Macs are going to transition to “Apple 
Silicon” based on Apple implementation of ARM64, plus a whole bunch more

Jonathan

Sent from my iPhone

Jonathan Prescott
(919) 884-6451

> On Jun 25, 2020, at 4:04 PM, René J.V. Bertin via X11-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Thursday June 25 2020 10:43:07 Maximilian Ebert wrote:
> 
>> What are the chances that there will be an office ARM64 binary bundle of 
>> xQuartz? Many scientific applications depend on the X11 server and it would 
>> be sad to see them go.
> 
> Macs are going to change CPU architecture AGAIN, or are you in fact referring 
> to running an X server under iOS?
> 
> That said, AFAIK there is no longer an officially supported XQuartz, nowadays 
> you're better off using an X server package from MacPorts. If ARM64 Macs 
> become a thing you can bet that someone will make certain the Xorg server 
> builds on that platform, as long as it doesn't require lowlevel libraries 
> that have to come from Apple.
> 
> If meant X11 for iOS, I'd say if that were to happen it'd have happened 
> already. One can be pretty certain that apps are not allowed to depend on 
> another app (the X server) to run, and from what I understand the remote X11 
> protocol isn't exactly secure (and maybe Apple have other reasons to 
> distinguish an X11 server from VNC clients). Besides, do XQuartz and its 
> descendants even have sufficient builtin support (drivers) for touchscreen 
> and on-screen keyboard interfaces?
> In short, your best bet to use your iPhone or iPad as an X11 terminal would 
> be to use them as VNC clients of an X11-enabled VNC server.
> 
> R.
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Re: ARM64 version of xQuartz

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Thursday June 25 2020 10:43:07 Maximilian Ebert wrote:

>What are the chances that there will be an office ARM64 binary bundle of 
>xQuartz? Many scientific applications depend on the X11 server and it would be 
>sad to see them go.

Macs are going to change CPU architecture AGAIN, or are you in fact referring 
to running an X server under iOS?

That said, AFAIK there is no longer an officially supported XQuartz, nowadays 
you're better off using an X server package from MacPorts. If ARM64 Macs become 
a thing you can bet that someone will make certain the Xorg server builds on 
that platform, as long as it doesn't require lowlevel libraries that have to 
come from Apple.

If meant X11 for iOS, I'd say if that were to happen it'd have happened 
already. One can be pretty certain that apps are not allowed to depend on 
another app (the X server) to run, and from what I understand the remote X11 
protocol isn't exactly secure (and maybe Apple have other reasons to 
distinguish an X11 server from VNC clients). Besides, do XQuartz and its 
descendants even have sufficient builtin support (drivers) for touchscreen and 
on-screen keyboard interfaces?
In short, your best bet to use your iPhone or iPad as an X11 terminal would be 
to use them as VNC clients of an X11-enabled VNC server.

R.
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ARM64 version of xQuartz

[Maximilian Ebert via X11-users]

Hi there,

I just joined the list so the question might have been asked this month already 
(I only found the archive up to May). What are the chances that there will be 
an office ARM64 binary bundle of xQuartz? Many scientific applications depend 
on the X11 server and it would be sad to see them go.

Cheers,
Max


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