Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011, Bill McGonigle wrote: On 11/07/2010 03:55 PM, M A Young wrote: If the plan to get key xen drivers into 2.6.38 succeeds With the caveat that I don't really know what I'm looking for, I didn't see these make 2.6.38-rc1 (plenty of other Xen work, though). I saw a proposed patch for netback hit xen-devel yesterday. There was talk of userland netback and blkback in xen 4.1 which use the gntdev interface which did make it into 2.6.38 (userland blkback apparently gives the similar performance as the kernel one, netback is not as good). I am not sure of the details though, nor how you might use them if they are available. Michael Young -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 09:47:43AM +0200, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 09:34:50PM -0500, Bill McGonigle wrote: On 11/07/2010 03:55 PM, M A Young wrote: If the plan to get key xen drivers into 2.6.38 succeeds With the caveat that I don't really know what I'm looking for, I didn't see these make 2.6.38-rc1 (plenty of other Xen work, though). I saw a proposed patch for netback hit xen-devel yesterday. So, did we miss Fedora 15? Yep, netback most probably won't be in 2.6.38. Upstreaming of the various dom0 bits needs to be done step-by-step, the previous everything at once clearly didn't work. netback could always be added as an out-of-tree patch, or even some dkms module/rpm ? If what is left of netback is a purely self-contained driver module which doesn't touch any central kernel/arch code, then I think you'd stand a good chance of convincing the Fedora kernel maintainers to take it as a add-on patch to the official kernels. Daniel -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 08:39:46AM +, M A Young wrote: On Thu, 20 Jan 2011, Bill McGonigle wrote: On 11/07/2010 03:55 PM, M A Young wrote: If the plan to get key xen drivers into 2.6.38 succeeds With the caveat that I don't really know what I'm looking for, I didn't see these make 2.6.38-rc1 (plenty of other Xen work, though). I saw a proposed patch for netback hit xen-devel yesterday. There was talk of userland netback and blkback in xen 4.1 which use the gntdev interface which did make it into 2.6.38 (userland blkback apparently gives the similar performance as the kernel one, netback is not as good). I am not sure of the details though, nor how you might use them if they are available. Xen folks worked to give QEMU a userland netback/blkback implementation, but I don't believe this functionality is integrated into the mgmt stack at this time, so likely not much use yet. Daniel -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
On 11/07/2010 03:55 PM, M A Young wrote: If the plan to get key xen drivers into 2.6.38 succeeds With the caveat that I don't really know what I'm looking for, I didn't see these make 2.6.38-rc1 (plenty of other Xen work, though). I saw a proposed patch for netback hit xen-devel yesterday. So, did we miss Fedora 15? -Bill -- Bill McGonigle, Owner BFC Computing, LLC http://bfccomputing.com/ Telephone: +1.603.448.4440 Email, IM, VOIP: b...@bfccomputing.com VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf Social networks: bill_mcgonigle/bill.mcgonigle -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 09:34:50PM -0500, Bill McGonigle wrote: On 11/07/2010 03:55 PM, M A Young wrote: If the plan to get key xen drivers into 2.6.38 succeeds With the caveat that I don't really know what I'm looking for, I didn't see these make 2.6.38-rc1 (plenty of other Xen work, though). I saw a proposed patch for netback hit xen-devel yesterday. So, did we miss Fedora 15? Yep, netback most probably won't be in 2.6.38. Upstreaming of the various dom0 bits needs to be done step-by-step, the previous everything at once clearly didn't work. netback could always be added as an out-of-tree patch, or even some dkms module/rpm ? -- Pasi -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
Dear Santa, I don't have much, but I am willing to give up any and all of my Christmas presents if you can see your way to bring Christmas to a boy in the UK. You see, they have even less there in the UK - surveillance cameras everywhere to make sure they keep in line and boiled gruel twice a day if they are lucky. There is a boy, Michael, he works ever so hard - first shift at a coal mine and then second shift at a textile mill - and then after 2 10 hour shifts of backbreaking labor, he only has a couple hours per day by candle light while eating his nightly gruel to work on Xen for Fedora. Mr. Scrooge and the other fat cats at Scrooge, Inc. tell Michael and the rest of us that we should be happy with their KVM. This, while dining on the finest roasted meats and full cream puddings in front of roaring fires fueled by wood gathered by orphans and widows paid in crust of week-old bread while young, robust, well-fed hamsters on whale oiled wheels run their giant gleaming servers - you see Santa, our hamsters are gaunt, long-of-tooth and have only a portion of Michael's nightly gruel that he is able to share with them and alas we have no monies for whale blubber with which to oil their wheels. The rich seem to believe that we press for Xen only through laziness or recalcitrance - I can assure you this is not the case, we have simple needs and wants, we ask not for full bodied HVM capable X5680s but only that our humble, yet proud and hardworking Core, Pentium and Opterons are not dumped on the ground and doused in kerosene that they might never be used again. We are not asking for luxury and riches, just humble tools that a man might fashion an honest day's work from what he has. These hopes ride on young Michael's work. They are not the sole hopes of Michael or me but the hopes of thousands, living lives of quiet desperation, hoping beyond hope that one call goes their way, of having one branch to grab onto. Dearest Santa - please don't leave these desperate souls a lump of KVM in their stocking. Thank you and god bless us every one! On 11/8/10 8:00 AM, Dor Laor wrote: On 11/08/2010 04:55 AM, M A Young wrote: I am trying to work out whether it is practical to propose Dom0 xen support as a feature for Fedora 15. The kernel situation is that Domain 0 has been accepted upstream for 2.6.37. Assuming a 3 month kernel release cycle, F15 will most likely ship with a 2.6.37.x kernel, with 2.6.38 coming out either after the F15 release or just before but too late to be included. If the plan to get key xen drivers into 2.6.38 succeeds, then F15 may be become usable as a Domain 0 system at some point during its lifetime as the kernel package in a Fedora version typically has one major update. If the kernel team accept backported patches then it might just be possible to ship F15 with usable Domain 0 support but the timescale for that would be very tight. The other thing we would need to consider is what needs to be done to make xen friendly enough to be usable by an ordinary user. The page https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/XenPvopsDom0 contains plans from when dom0 xen support was expected to make a quick return to Fedora, but they are a couple of years old now so probably need updating. I think as a minimum we would need a way to add a dom0 enabled grub entry for a kernel, rather than requiring the user to hand edit the grub file. We should also make sure that xen works with the other Fedora virtualisation tools. What do others think about this? For example is it achievable as a feature, is it too early and better to wait for F16, and what else should we aim to do to make xen usable in Fedora? Have you consider kvm? it's upstream since 2.6.20 and now its more ready than ever. Michael Young ___ virt mailing list v...@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/virt -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
+1 -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Digimer li...@alteeve.com wrote: On 10-11-09 11:49 AM, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: AFAIK there are some issues with that benchmark not being free. What I'm basically looking for is a simple comparison of a few key metrics between common setups. For example a simple bonnie++ run on XenPV and KVM+virtio_blk could already give people at least some baseline numbers. Regards, Dennis I'd be happy to run some benchmarks. I've got some identical (if humble) machines... Would you want just a Xen vs. KVM? If so, what parameters or setup options would provide the best apples to apples comparison? The machines are; - quad core athlon II x4 - 4gb ddr3 - 1x 7200rom 500GB drive - Fedora 14, stripped (but identical) installs If these are too low end for useful results, let me know. Otherwise, I'll fire up Xen under Michael's 2.6.32-25-172 kernel with the stock 4.0.1 hypervisor on one machine, and can use the stock KVM/QEMU setup for another. Assuming all is fine, would it matter whether the VMs were F14 vs CentOS 5.5? I was thinking 3x runs each of; - bonnie++ - Recompile Michael's kernel - ?? Please make suggestions There is also an ongoing discussion about Xen vs. KVM performance on the CentOS virt list http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-virt/2010-October/002074.html -- Todd Deshane http://todddeshane.net http://runningxen.com -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
On 10-11-12 09:57 AM, Todd Deshane wrote: I'd be happy to run some benchmarks. I've got some identical (if humble) machines... Would you want just a Xen vs. KVM? If so, what parameters or setup options would provide the best apples to apples comparison? The machines are; - quad core athlon II x4 - 4gb ddr3 - 1x 7200rom 500GB drive - Fedora 14, stripped (but identical) installs If these are too low end for useful results, let me know. Otherwise, I'll fire up Xen under Michael's 2.6.32-25-172 kernel with the stock 4.0.1 hypervisor on one machine, and can use the stock KVM/QEMU setup for another. Assuming all is fine, would it matter whether the VMs were F14 vs CentOS 5.5? I was thinking 3x runs each of; - bonnie++ - Recompile Michael's kernel - ?? Please make suggestions There is also an ongoing discussion about Xen vs. KVM performance on the CentOS virt list http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-virt/2010-October/002074.html One thing I can say already, I've been unable to get Fedora 14 to start as a KVM VM with more than one CPU. I'm having to rework my test bed to use RHEL 6.0 now that it's out and hope that it solves the problem. :) -- Digimer E-Mail: digi...@alteeve.com AN!Whitepapers: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
Config (.config) might be different for pvops kernel running as vanilla or under xen. Boris. --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Daniel P. Berrange berra...@redhat.com wrote: From: Daniel P. Berrange berra...@redhat.com Subject: Re: [fedora-virt] [Fedora-xen] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15? To: Richard W.M. Jones rjo...@redhat.com Cc: Boris Derzhavets bderzhav...@yahoo.com, Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com, xen@lists.fedoraproject.org, v...@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 5:30 AM On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 09:55:19AM +, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 10:40:10AM -0800, Boris Derzhavets wrote: And I would hope that the installer would be clever enough to see if KVM is supported and offer xen if not. Doesn't need to be default, available is fine. What if i don't want KVM install no matter of hardware ? I will want Xen on icore7 + ASUS P6TDT+ 16 GB RAM , Dell PowerEdge and so on ... I guess you will have to manually yum install kernel-xen. We can't magically know your preference, but it makes sense to default to KVM (by which I am really saying default to a plain Linux kernel) because that is far less intrusive for users. NB, there is no kernel-xen anymore with pvops dom0. To enable xen you just need to yum install xen-hypervisor and update grub to boot the kernel under the hypervisor Regards, Daniel -- |: Red Hat, Engineering, London -o- http://people.redhat.com/berrange/ :| |: http://libvirt.org -o- http://virt-manager.org -o- http://deltacloud.org :| |: http://autobuild.org -o- http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :| |: GnuPG: 7D3B9505 -o- F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505 :| -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
On 11/09/10 20:44, M A Young wrote: On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, Don Dutile wrote: IMO, the pieces that the Xen folks have to whip into shape are the tools; the missing kernel pieces are fairly well known (backend drivers), although Xen folks are considering blkback in userspace instead of kernel space, so that may be a new twist. I did see a post which mentioned that qemu had blkback and netback and wondering if they would work with xen, but I don't know any more than that. Last time I tested they worked fine. blkback should even provide reasonable performance. netback most likely will be outperformed by far by the kernel's netback implementation. cheers, Gerd -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 09:55:19AM +, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 10:40:10AM -0800, Boris Derzhavets wrote: And I would hope that the installer would be clever enough to see if KVM is supported and offer xen if not. Doesn't need to be default, available is fine. What if i don't want KVM install no matter of hardware ? I will want Xen on icore7 + ASUS P6TDT+ 16 GB RAM , Dell PowerEdge and so on ... I guess you will have to manually yum install kernel-xen. We can't magically know your preference, but it makes sense to default to KVM (by which I am really saying default to a plain Linux kernel) because that is far less intrusive for users. NB, there is no kernel-xen anymore with pvops dom0. To enable xen you just need to yum install xen-hypervisor and update grub to boot the kernel under the hypervisor Regards, Daniel -- |: Red Hat, Engineering, London-o- http://people.redhat.com/berrange/ :| |: http://libvirt.org -o- http://virt-manager.org -o- http://deltacloud.org :| |: http://autobuild.org-o- http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :| |: GnuPG: 7D3B9505 -o- F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505 :| -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
Exactly, i only need on Fedora :) # yum install kernel-xen Boris. --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Richard W.M. Jones rjo...@redhat.com wrote: From: Richard W.M. Jones rjo...@redhat.com Subject: Re: [fedora-virt] [Fedora-xen] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15? To: Boris Derzhavets bderzhav...@yahoo.com Cc: Daniel P. Berrange berra...@redhat.com, Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com, xen@lists.fedoraproject.org, v...@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 4:55 AM On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 10:40:10AM -0800, Boris Derzhavets wrote: And I would hope that the installer would be clever enough to see if KVM is supported and offer xen if not. Doesn't need to be default, available is fine. What if i don't want KVM install no matter of hardware ? I will want Xen on icore7 + ASUS P6TDT+ 16 GB RAM , Dell PowerEdge and so on ... I guess you will have to manually yum install kernel-xen. We can't magically know your preference, but it makes sense to default to KVM (by which I am really saying default to a plain Linux kernel) because that is far less intrusive for users. Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones Read my programming blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com Fedora now supports 80 OCaml packages (the OPEN alternative to F#) http://cocan.org/getting_started_with_ocaml_on_red_hat_and_fedora -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
Digimer wrote: On 10-11-09 11:49 AM, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: AFAIK there are some issues with that benchmark not being free. What I'm basically looking for is a simple comparison of a few key metrics between common setups. For example a simple bonnie++ run on XenPV and KVM+virtio_blk could already give people at least some baseline numbers. Regards, Dennis I'd be happy to run some benchmarks. I've got some identical (if humble) machines... Would you want just a Xen vs. KVM? If so, what parameters or setup options would provide the best apples to apples comparison? The machines are; - quad core athlon II x4 - 4gb ddr3 - 1x 7200rom 500GB drive - Fedora 14, stripped (but identical) installs If these are too low end for useful results, let me know. Otherwise, I'll fire up Xen under Michael's 2.6.32-25-172 kernel with the stock 4.0.1 hypervisor on one machine, and can use the stock KVM/QEMU setup for another. Assuming all is fine, would it matter whether the VMs were F14 vs CentOS 5.5? I was thinking 3x runs each of; - bonnie++ - Recompile Michael's kernel - ?? Please make suggestions Thanks for the offer. The services which have in the past shown significant differences (my experience) are small, with lots of connects and io. Examples are NNTP (ak usenet news) and POP mail servers. I suspect that DHCP and DNS have too little io to show the effect, but I never had enough load to know. Unless web service has a lot of dynamic content, I doubt it would have enough load to show the difference unless someone has server image and load generator to use. I could probably dig up a simulated load for NNTP, but I don't have an easy way to preload a server. My days of generating test loads were when I ran ISP NNTP servers and only had to provide test loading against the servers. Performance aside, There is still a lot of old or small hardware that just can't do KVM at all, and which are easier to administer with a VM which can be moved. -- Bill Davidsendavid...@tmr.com We can't solve today's problems by using the same thinking we used in creating them. - Einstein -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
Dor Laor wrote: On 11/08/2010 04:55 AM, M A Young wrote: I am trying to work out whether it is practical to propose Dom0 xen support as a feature for Fedora 15. The kernel situation is that Domain 0 has been accepted upstream for 2.6.37. Assuming a 3 month kernel release cycle, F15 will most likely ship with a 2.6.37.x kernel, with 2.6.38 coming out either after the F15 release or just before but too late to be included. If the plan to get key xen drivers into 2.6.38 succeeds, then F15 may be become usable as a Domain 0 system at some point during its lifetime as the kernel package in a Fedora version typically has one major update. If the kernel team accept backported patches then it might just be possible to ship F15 with usable Domain 0 support but the timescale for that would be very tight. The other thing we would need to consider is what needs to be done to make xen friendly enough to be usable by an ordinary user. The page https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/XenPvopsDom0 contains plans from when dom0 xen support was expected to make a quick return to Fedora, but they are a couple of years old now so probably need updating. I think as a minimum we would need a way to add a dom0 enabled grub entry for a kernel, rather than requiring the user to hand edit the grub file. We should also make sure that xen works with the other Fedora virtualisation tools. What do others think about this? For example is it achievable as a feature, is it too early and better to wait for F16, and what else should we aim to do to make xen usable in Fedora? Have you consider kvm? it's upstream since 2.6.20 and now its more ready than ever. There are some good tutorials which should explain the difference between xen and kvm, particularly the performance and hardware requirements of each. -- Bill Davidsendavid...@tmr.com We can't solve today's problems by using the same thinking we used in creating them. - Einstein -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
Re: [Fedora-xen] [fedora-virt] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15?
On 11/08/2010 06:02 PM, Andrew Cathrow wrote: - Original Message - From: Bill Davidsendavid...@tmr.com To: dl...@redhat.com Cc: xen@lists.fedoraproject.org, v...@lists.fedoraproject.org, M A Youngm.a.yo...@durham.ac.uk Sent: Monday, November 8, 2010 11:52:08 AM Subject: Re: [fedora-virt] [Fedora-xen] Dom0 xen support in Fedora 15? Dor Laor wrote: On 11/08/2010 04:55 AM, M A Young wrote: I am trying to work out whether it is practical to propose Dom0 xen support as a feature for Fedora 15. The kernel situation is that Domain 0 has been accepted upstream for 2.6.37. Assuming a 3 month kernel release cycle, F15 will most likely ship with a 2.6.37.x kernel, with 2.6.38 coming out either after the F15 release or just before but too late to be included. If the plan to get key xen drivers into 2.6.38 succeeds, then F15 may be become usable as a Domain 0 system at some point during its lifetime as the kernel package in a Fedora version typically has one major update. If the kernel team accept backported patches then it might just be possible to ship F15 with usable Domain 0 support but the timescale for that would be very tight. The other thing we would need to consider is what needs to be done to make xen friendly enough to be usable by an ordinary user. The page https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/XenPvopsDom0 contains plans from when dom0 xen support was expected to make a quick return to Fedora, but they are a couple of years old now so probably need updating. I think as a minimum we would need a way to add a dom0 enabled grub entry for a kernel, rather than requiring the user to hand edit the grub file. We should also make sure that xen works with the other Fedora virtualisation tools. What do others think about this? For example is it achievable as a feature, is it too early and better to wait for F16, and what else should we aim to do to make xen usable in Fedora? Have you consider kvm? it's upstream since 2.6.20 and now its more ready than ever. There are some good tutorials which should explain the difference between xen and kvm, particularly the performance and hardware requirements of each. re: hardware requirements, KVM's requirement for VT-X/AMD-V extensions certainly used to be a concern 2-3 years ago but today even laptops come with this support. And regarding performance they days of Xen outperforming KVM have long-since passed. Citations needed. I'm not saying what you claim isn't true but without data this opinion doesn't carry much weight. Regards, Dennis -- xen mailing list xen@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen
