Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Richard Johnston]

Thank you Kenneth for the heads up on TagBot. I really agree on the  
usefullness of tags. I find it so much easier visually to find a  
particular file amidst a list of similar type and content files  
rather than a smorgasbord of all the different kinds of files on my  
computer that get dragged up in a Spotlight type of search.


Richard

On Apr 4, 2007, at 7:32 AM, Kenneth Kirksey wrote:


The reason people clamor for nested folders is that they're  
comfortable with that metaphor. I hung on to that metaphor for much  
too long myself. Yojimbo helped me break free of that outmoded way of  
thinking.


My documents folder in the finder has no structure or subfolders.  
It's just a collection of files, tagged and organized with TagBot.  
Since I dumped the nested folders metaphor, I've found it much easier  
to find and organize my documents.




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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Michael Eckblad]

I understand that the conversation has since reverted to nested  
folders, but…


The blogger made a mistake; It appears Eagle Filer uses a  
combination of flat file structure AND Core Data (SQLite db) for  
its database, instead of Yojimbo's exclusive use of Core Data.


Flat file system? What version of EagleFiler did you try that did  
not have hierarchical folders for storage? Are you misrepresenting  
EagleFiler? ;-)


The blogger used the phrase "flat file structure" to describe the  
finder-based directory hierarchy it uses for file storage. The point  
was that Eagle Filer uses a flat file structure as well as Core Data,  
which contradicts the blogger's claim about an "additional database  
engine" and "corruption and loss". If anything Eagle filer is more  
susceptible to corruption because it relies on the disk catalog  
(especially if the disk format is an older HFS format), but that  
shouldn't be a deciding factor, should it… ;-)



The documents themselves are not in the database.


Right.

I think both Yojimbo and EagleFiler are great products (I have  
licences for both), and I do not think it's misrepresenting Yojimbo  
to say that it does not support nested folders and does not store  
its documents in the file system, which seemed to be two  
requirements of the blogger. In fact, I think this discussion is  
most benefic for both products as it shows real cases where users  
have some needs not covered by one or the other application. (For  
instance, I really miss the encryption capabilities of Yojimbo when  
I use EagleFiler.)


It is misrepresenting when, of the final 4 deciding factors, 1.  
(quick input panel) does not appear to be substantiated by other  
users as a "known issue", and  4. (method of data storage) is  
partially erroneous. 2. (Nested Folders) and 3. (Encryption) are  
mutually exclusive in either application, so pick your poison and  
wait for your feature request to come through. A more accurate  
decision defense could have been simplified to a preference towards  
nested folders and a finder-browseable file hierarchy.


But then, it is a blog, and I wouldn't be the first one frustrated  
when trying to hold a blogger to traditional Journalistic standards,  
would I…


Now, where were we? Oh, nested folders, right…

Michael
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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Marlyse Comte]

Yes, I did the same, read all the entries of the blog, agree with some
of the points, others not and checked out the apps mentioned which I
didn't already either know or own. And I do know what my favorite all-
rounder would be, a mix of :

Yojimbo (passwords & serials / selective encryption / network sync'ing /
nice feel)
+DevonThinkOffice (files easy accessible on finder level / mail
backkup / quick search / stores everything / sheets with record
entries / OCR /several databases possible)
+Journler (interface / nested folders / smart within smart folders /
tables etc. possible / mark as done)
+VoodooPad (great little wiki)
+Yep (great for PDF's, and version 1.5.2 greatly improved over the review)
+Curios (sketching / various background / great sleuth integration /
flow-charting)


Haha, I know I know, but this would be quite perfect in an unperfect world :-)

It really would be great to have a true "all-in-one", but then the
danger is the same as with DevonThink which had been for me in the past
to through just about everything at it and (oh yes, this was fun) to
loose a whole database because it had gone corrupt - many, many versions
earlier than the current version (it handles databases completely
different now and this could no longer happen). They used to have some
sync between machines but if I remember correctly, that had been part of
my problem then.

All this said and because this IS the Yojimbo list : looking over all
the features and what Yojimbo shines at for my personal use, there are
only 2 things I would really like to see implemented : nested folders
and some better image handling (i.e. when I drag a photo to it that it
gets stored as it's own thing and not that I have to drag&drop into some
new text file and the image then remains there just as some sort of
picture clipping.


---marlyse


 former message(s) quotes: -

>My .02...
>
>I read the blog and immediately went into download and try a bunch of  
>the apps he reviewed.  I then started making my own checklist in my  
>mind on why I would want to purchase app x with app y.  I think it  
>would be great to know of what is coming out in Yojimbo at some point  
>in the future.  Barebones should release a roadmap in a form they are  
>comfortable with so folks like me can know whether or not I should go  
>purchase some other app because it supports X which I really want and  
>Yojimbo does not.
>
>I also would like to see more frequent updates on YoJimbo.  The one  
>nice thing about the shareware apps is the developers, often, do  
>updates very frequently.
>
>Curtis


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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Richard Wayman]

Notwithstanding PW's horse-flogging point, may I make a more general  
observation about multiple ways of working?


There is more than one use for a nested folder system - a desire for  
nested folders doesn't necessarily mean you aren't using tags  
effectively or searching for data effectively. The more powerful and  
flexible an application (Yojimbo being a case in point), the more  
different ways of working are desirable, and one does not necessarily  
negate or replace the other.


Here is one way I would use nested folders right now that has nothing  
to do with 'replacing' tagging:


I use Yojimbo to manage my GTD-style 'To Do' system. I have hundreds  
of fully-tagged notes representing current projects and so on in my  
system. I also have a series of tags to denote specific individuals I  
need to discuss things with (Agendas).


When I need to consult an individual about a project, I add the  
agenda tag for that individual to the Yojimbo item for that project.  
This then automatically adds the item to the tag collection  
representing the daily agenda for that person. I have 8-10 different  
tag collections representing agendas for various individuals (and  
this is likely to grow in the future) and I would like them all in  
one folder I can collapse when I'm not speaking to any of those people.


And no, I don't want to have to do a search for the specific agenda  
tag every time I need to talk to someone. The more complex and  
powerful tag collections (and in future smart collections) become,  
the less a simple search in the search box is going to be able to  
replace them.


It is therefore perfectly possible for nested folders to complement  
tags, just as labels can complement tags and so on. It is rash to  
assume that one way of working is diametrically opposed to another,  
or that just because you don't see a use for something no one else  
does either.


Rich


On 4 Apr 2007, at 3:42 pm, Patrick Gilmour wrote:

Nested folders are more visual, for me at least. I find it easier  
to maintain a mental overview of what I have collected with nested  
folders - which is important for me. And, of course, what's nice  
about including Nested Folders is that you don't have to use them  
if you don't want to!



On Apr 4, 2007, at 10:18 AM, Mehboob Alam wrote:


I'm not entirely sure what the fuss about "nested" folders is. Going
back to the original Macintosh Finder and the 400K diskettes, the
filesystem was flat, and then the nested structure was introduced as
an "virtual" structure. But the filestorage system is still flat.

I'm missing something about this.. tagging seems more reasonable
because items can be stored with multiple tags.. isnt that how the
mind works, as opposed to how the real-world filing cabinet works?

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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Patrick Gilmour]

Nested folders are more visual, for me at least. I find it easier to  
maintain a mental overview of what I have collected with nested  
folders - which is important for me. And, of course, what's nice  
about including Nested Folders is that you don't have to use them if  
you don't want to!



On Apr 4, 2007, at 10:18 AM, Mehboob Alam wrote:


I'm not entirely sure what the fuss about "nested" folders is. Going
back to the original Macintosh Finder and the 400K diskettes, the
filesystem was flat, and then the nested structure was introduced as
an "virtual" structure. But the filestorage system is still flat.

I'm missing something about this.. tagging seems more reasonable
because items can be stored with multiple tags.. isnt that how the
mind works, as opposed to how the real-world filing cabinet works?

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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Lee Hinde]

On 4/4/07, Mehboob Alam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I'm not entirely sure what the fuss about "nested" folders is. Going
back to the original Macintosh Finder and the 400K diskettes, the
filesystem was flat, and then the nested structure was introduced as
an "virtual" structure. But the filestorage system is still flat.

I'm missing something about this.. tagging seems more reasonable
because items can be stored with multiple tags.. isnt that how the
mind works, as opposed to how the real-world filing cabinet works?



Tags are great, but so are nested folders. There's a reason  nested
folders accompanied that terrific technological advance, the 800k
floppy.


--
"And those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others" -
Groucho Marx

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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Sherman Wilcox]

On Apr 4, 2007, at 8:18 AM, Mehboob Alam wrote:


I'm missing something about this.. tagging seems more reasonable
because items can be stored with multiple tags.. isnt that how the
mind works, as opposed to how the real-world filing cabinet works?


Well, on the one hand, I think you're right Mehboob. That probably is  
how the mind works: we associate some item with lots of 'tags'. It's  
about X, and Y, and Z, in various strengths.


But I also think that when we use our computers, many years of  
"nested folder" thinking gets imprinted onto our minds, making it  
hard to break free of nested folders and rely solely on tags.

--
Sherman



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[admin] Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Patrick Woolsey]

Before this already-skeletal equine is reduced to dust :-), may I
recommend referring to the extensive discussions about nested folders
in the list archives, perusal of which also won't fill up everyone
else's mailbox... :-).


Regards,

 Patrick Woolsey  /  Director of Technical Services
==
Bare Bones Software, Inc.
P.O. Box 1048, Bedford, MA 01730-1048

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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Kenneth Kirksey]

On Apr 4, 2007, at 10:18 AM, Mehboob Alam wrote:


I'm missing something about this.. tagging seems more reasonable
because items can be stored with multiple tags.. isnt that how the
mind works, as opposed to how the real-world filing cabinet works?


What are the 7 words most often heard in a Baptist church?

"We've never done it that way before!"

:)

The reason people clamor for nested folders is that they're  
comfortable with that metaphor. I hung on to that metaphor for much  
too long myself. Yojimbo helped me break free of that outmoded way of  
thinking.


My documents folder in the finder has no structure or subfolders.  
It's just a collection of files, tagged and organized with TagBot.  
Since I dumped the nested folders metaphor, I've found it much easier  
to find and organize my documents.




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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Mehboob Alam]

I'm not entirely sure what the fuss about "nested" folders is. Going
back to the original Macintosh Finder and the 400K diskettes, the
filesystem was flat, and then the nested structure was introduced as
an "virtual" structure. But the filestorage system is still flat.

I'm missing something about this.. tagging seems more reasonable
because items can be stored with multiple tags.. isnt that how the
mind works, as opposed to how the real-world filing cabinet works?

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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Patrick Gilmour]

Agree totally, though I don't want to use two app's to store stuff  
and so am sticking to Yojimbo, with regular backups, a few  
Applescripts to export etc. and a deep sigh of longing every time I  
see nested folders elsewhere in a similar app!



On Apr 4, 2007, at 4:04 AM, Alan Schmitt wrote:

In fact, I think this discussion is most benefic for both products  
as it shows real cases where users have some needs not covered by  
one or the other application.



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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Mehboob Alam]

Ohhh.. the filesystems label function is a poorly designed leftover
from the past. I'm looking forward to a future filesystem that has a
built-in database to store file meta-data. Read this for an idea of
what may come in the near future



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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Mehboob Alam]

From my experience with another application that inexplicably used XML

to store its database instead of SQLite, promising future
functionality is a recipe for great user frustration and
dissatisfaction. Especially if some functionality of the future OS
release is tied in with the release of the application.

Just work on making this version stable, and improve its functionality
in synching with different computer without using .Mac as a
repository.

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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Michael Tsai]

On Apr 4, 2007, at 4:04 AM, Alan Schmitt wrote:

As far as I know, the database is used to store tags, labels, and  
the relation between files and notes (if they have one), as well as  
the index for fast searches. (Each note contains a link to the  
record it is attached to.) The documents themselves are not in the  
database.


Right, although to be precise: EagleFiler labels are regular Mac file  
labels, so they are stored in the file system, and the indexes for  
content searching are stored in separate files, not in the database.


--
Michael Tsai 


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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Curtis Almond]

My .02...

I read the blog and immediately went into download and try a bunch of  
the apps he reviewed.  I then started making my own checklist in my  
mind on why I would want to purchase app x with app y.  I think it  
would be great to know of what is coming out in Yojimbo at some point  
in the future.  Barebones should release a roadmap in a form they are  
comfortable with so folks like me can know whether or not I should go  
purchase some other app because it supports X which I really want and  
Yojimbo does not.


I also would like to see more frequent updates on YoJimbo.  The one  
nice thing about the shareware apps is the developers, often, do  
updates very frequently.


Curtis

On Apr 3, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Patrick Gilmour wrote:


Hi,

I just read Melodie Neal's conclusions on the best file-organiser- 
litter-sorter app's on the Mac. Seems EagleFiler pipped Yojimbo to  
the post because of the the flat file structure (instead of the  
SQLite db) and wait for it... (drum roll now...)... Nested  
Folders


But that debate's closed, right?

Link: http://melodien.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html

Pat






On Mar 11, 2007, at 22:09 PM, Melodie Neal wrote:


People

Some weeks ago I undertook to do a review of Yojimbo and applications
of a similar ilk.  At the time I expected to spend a few days looking
at software and writing a page or two of assessment: this has proved
to be an unreasonably optimistic estimate of the work involved.

Since I have already written quite a screed, and I'm no where near
done, I've decided to post the documents on my blog, starting at
http://melodien.blogspot.com/2007/03/litter-sorters-personal- 
evaluation-of.html
.  This is merely part one, part two is in late draft and should  
go up

in the next day or so;  parts three, four and probably five will
follow along in due course.  You will see that emailing this stuff to
the list would have been completely impractical.

I hope my maunderings will be of practical use to someone.

rgds

Melodie

--
Melodie Neal, CISSP, JP
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.linkedin.com/in/melodieneal

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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Alan Schmitt]

On 4 avr. 07, at 00:23, Michael Eckblad wrote:

The blogger made a mistake; It appears Eagle Filer uses a  
combination of flat file structure AND Core Data (SQLite db) for  
its database, instead of Yojimbo's exclusive use of Core Data.


Flat file system? What version of EagleFiler did you try that did not  
have hierarchical folders for storage? Are you misrepresenting  
EagleFiler? ;-)


As far as I know, the database is used to store tags, labels, and the  
relation between files and notes (if they have one), as well as the  
index for fast searches. (Each note contains a link to the record it  
is attached to.) The documents themselves are not in the database.


I think both Yojimbo and EagleFiler are great products (I have  
licences for both), and I do not think it's misrepresenting Yojimbo  
to say that it does not support nested folders and does not store its  
documents in the file system, which seemed to be two requirements of  
the blogger. In fact, I think this discussion is most benefic for  
both products as it shows real cases where users have some needs not  
covered by one or the other application. (For instance, I really miss  
the encryption capabilities of Yojimbo when I use EagleFiler.)


Alan

--
Alan Schmitt 

The hacker: someone who figured things out and made something cool  
happen.

 .O.
 ..O
 OOO




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Re: Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Michael Eckblad]

The blogger made a mistake; It appears Eagle Filer uses a combination  
of flat file structure AND Core Data (SQLite db) for its database,  
instead of Yojimbo's exclusive use of Core Data. I would probably  
prefer a similar hybrid in Yojimbo, but that strikes the blogger's  
claim about being "a little uneasy about having to run an additional  
database engine, with all the possibilities of corruption and loss",  
especially because Core Data is already OS part of the OS  
architecture, not to mention solid. THere's no additional "running"  
involved for either application.
Personally, I've never had a problem with Yojimbo's Drop Dock, I  
agree nested folders would be nice (or something more usable/ 
innovative), and they're just wrong about their Core Data claims.  
I've never used Eagle Filer, but Yojimbo seems to have been  
erroneously represented in the final decision-making.


Michael

Core Data reference: 

On Apr 3, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Patrick Gilmour wrote:


Hi,

I just read Melodie Neal's conclusions on the best file-organiser- 
litter-sorter app's on the Mac. Seems EagleFiler pipped Yojimbo to  
the post because of the the flat file structure (instead of the  
SQLite db) and wait for it... (drum roll now...)... Nested  
Folders


But that debate's closed, right?

Link: http://melodien.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html

Pat






On Mar 11, 2007, at 22:09 PM, Melodie Neal wrote:


People

Some weeks ago I undertook to do a review of Yojimbo and applications
of a similar ilk.  At the time I expected to spend a few days looking
at software and writing a page or two of assessment: this has proved
to be an unreasonably optimistic estimate of the work involved.

Since I have already written quite a screed, and I'm no where near
done, I've decided to post the documents on my blog, starting at
http://melodien.blogspot.com/2007/03/litter-sorters-personal- 
evaluation-of.html
.  This is merely part one, part two is in late draft and should  
go up

in the next day or so;  parts three, four and probably five will
follow along in due course.  You will see that emailing this stuff to
the list would have been completely impractical.

I hope my maunderings will be of practical use to someone.

rgds

Melodie

--
Melodie Neal, CISSP, JP
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.linkedin.com/in/melodieneal

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Application reviews by Melodie Neal

[Patrick Gilmour]

Hi,

I just read Melodie Neal's conclusions on the best file-organiser- 
litter-sorter app's on the Mac. Seems EagleFiler pipped Yojimbo to  
the post because of the the flat file structure (instead of the  
SQLite db) and wait for it... (drum roll now...)... Nested  
Folders


But that debate's closed, right?

Link: http://melodien.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html

Pat






On Mar 11, 2007, at 22:09 PM, Melodie Neal wrote:


People

Some weeks ago I undertook to do a review of Yojimbo and applications
of a similar ilk.  At the time I expected to spend a few days looking
at software and writing a page or two of assessment: this has proved
to be an unreasonably optimistic estimate of the work involved.

Since I have already written quite a screed, and I'm no where near
done, I've decided to post the documents on my blog, starting at
http://melodien.blogspot.com/2007/03/litter-sorters-personal- 
evaluation-of.html

.  This is merely part one, part two is in late draft and should go up
in the next day or so;  parts three, four and probably five will
follow along in due course.  You will see that emailing this stuff to
the list would have been completely impractical.

I hope my maunderings will be of practical use to someone.

rgds

Melodie

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Melodie Neal, CISSP, JP
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.linkedin.com/in/melodieneal

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