Bill!,br/br/A 'point' in evolution is probably a better choice of word than
peak. Never-the-less, regardless of whether the intellect interferes with our
true nature, or not, my point that we alone are in a position to transcend the
instinct to survive (and cause harm to others) still stands.
Merle,br/br/You missed the point again.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/It's beyond me to make it any
clearer.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bil!,br/br/It is possible understand the illusion of duality whilst
operating from the relative. We do it all the time (have to to survive) and is
what Buddha pointed out 2,500 years ago.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Avoiding what truth? I can guarantee you that anyone here who
has read that quote will agree with it. It's you that are out in the top
paddock. Lol!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/'There is no good or bad. Only thinking makes it so' -
Shakespeare.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Fraud's 'ego' and Buddhist 'ego' are not the same thing. You
need to do more research...br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail
for iPad
Merle,br/br/I'm not attempting to say anything. I wrote it in black and
white and clearly: humans are in a unique position to become self-realised by
following the Dharma (law of reality). You added the destructive
bit.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bill!,br/br/I think we're covering ground once trodden before! The
difference with us though is that we don't have to blindly follow our instincts
and can act altruistically even *against* our own welfare. This is rarely seen
in the animal kingdom. It's not judging that we are somehow better,
Merle,br/br/It is a basic tenet in Buddhism that all sentient beings have
Buddha Nature, but humans are in a unique position to follow a path to realise
it (not withstanding all the waffle about 'there is no path' yadayada). As for
vegetables, they make a good addition to any Sunday
Suresh,br/br/No offence, but these passages are just basic Buddhist
teachings rehashed into today's vernacular - somewhat re-confirming, but
certainly not anything new. Do you see anything in his work that is unique and
can be contributed to his own personal
insights?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent
Merle,br/br/what planet are you coming from??br/br/The one that
took billions of years to form naturally and needs no supernatural
explanation.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/If you have no concrete, empirical evidence of a creator god
then it's all just preconceived and presupposed. In other words - made
up.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Ironically, that's another non-sequitur disguised as a sequitur
using the title 'Non-Sequitur'!br/br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bill!,br/br/There's nothing wrong with maps as long as they're not taken to
be the 'real' destination. Same as time (clocks) and spiritual paths (although,
of course, there is a danger in believing that a spiritual path leads to a
destination). These are good examples of Buddha's teaching that
Merle,br/br/what the hell did you think god was?...br/br/I'm not
sure, but does he wear the Welsh number 15 shirt and convert the winning kick
against England last year?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail
for iPad
Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on
a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is
fun. Each to their own, I suppose.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo!
Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Maybe you could explain how having a belief in an imaginary
creator sky-god and painting imaginary legs on an imaginary snake is fun.
Call me strange, but I considered it for about 3 seconds and the fun just
wasn't happening. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Larry,br/br/I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people
may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that
liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a
god.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
And a 6000 year old one, at that.br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/The meaning of 'painting legs on a snake' indicates the
pointlessness of giving something it doesn't need and can do without. It has
nothing to do with 'having fun'. My original point still stands that the
universe works perfectly well without giving it imaginary fairy-stories as to
The creating and identifying of the ego as self is what creates suffering: the
First Noble Truth.br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Read KG's post again. Do you understand the difference between
a noun and a verb?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Simply because your's is not the meaning of the phrase as it relates to Zen and
how I originally used it.br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Where did I say I thought Aboriginal culture was crap?br/br/br/Sent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Exnnhj,br/br/Hertl njjik ddfoim doom wiki kklko ujji p
ship.br/br/Njiikbr/br/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
I hardly think employing the basic rules and conventions of communication makes
me a text book fanatic. Where do you come up with these
things?!!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
I thought it was a 60s flashback thing..br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail
for iPad
Merle,br/br/Is it National Non-Sequitur Week in Australia, or
something?br/br/Mike br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Hey, since when did you become the official forum entertainment
officer? Fun and nonsense is fine (and I hardly think I could be accused of
having no sense of humour), but you jumped from the middle of a discussion on
the lack of a need for a creator god to 'painting legs on a
Mikebr/br/Well, that would depend on whether you wish to have a discussion
and stick to the topic or traipse off into unrelated matters, wouldn't
it?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Case in point: I just typed in random letters and the spell-checker did the
rest. See how you (we) imagine things that aren't there without agreed upon
rules of communication? I understand that Zen masters and poets can turn such
rules on their head to make a point, but we were still
Merle,br/br/Anything you might be able to follow thru' on...
br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced
'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras?
I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them,
but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of
Larry,br/br/Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating
an unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to
create a Creator.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPad
Merlebr/br/They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some
relative truth.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Utility is no measure of
Truth.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
God is no different than a haemorrhoid cream. I like
it!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it
true. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
But they're both so comforting!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/From you or from me?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/The idea behind self-realisation to to stop the weaving and
deconstruct. You should know that..br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Just winding you up. You know it's a favourite pastime of mine
: )br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Tell that to Oscar Wilde! br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
I meant the blah blah blah - not the intellectualisation. Nobody would accuse
you of that. ; )br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most
people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why
paint legs on a snake?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPad
Edgar,br/br/Congratulations! You must be relieved to have finally finished
it.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
M,br/br/I began practicing Zen 10 years, or so, ago. I discovered Vipassana
meditation about 5 years ago. I have found that Vipassana explains things that
Zen leaves empty (pun noted). My (Zen) practice has deepened considerably since
discovering Vipassana and one of the factors is focusing on
Bill!,br/br/Would you say that when you are in shikantaza that you are also
in samadhi?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bill!,br/br/If you have time, take a look at this 1995 newsletter from Chan
Center.
br/br/http://chancenter.org/cmc/1995/02/01/shikantaza-and-silent-illumination/br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Hal, Bill!,br/br/I guess counting the breath is 'bread and butter' for most
people starting out (and also for seasoned meditators). I have found, however,
that the meditation on the breath as taught in the sutras says nothing
whatsoever about counting our breaths. Instead, we just focus on the
Bill!,br/br/When you put shikantaza into practice, is there a conscious
decision to drop the following of the breath which leads into shikantaza, or
does it just naturally cease? When I enter the jhanas/samadhi, I find the
breath becomes so fine/subtle that it seems to have stopped. This
Edgar,br/br/Awesome. Now you just have to understand what you wrote and
apply it ; )br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bill!,br/br/I'm probably using human nature in a different way than you.
My meaning is more specifically 'body-mind': that reality can only be known
sensorially.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Edgar,br/br/Won't be my job. In high school I never got passed 'sums'.
Still have a maths phobia.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail
for iPad
Edgar,br/br/Every Zen teacher and Buddha agree with you is a bit
revealing... Anyway, no, not exactly. Buddha taught us to go within to discover
reality. Speculating what 'out there' is made of is the role of philosophers
and meta-physicians. If nothing else, the Buddha was practical. That's
Merle,br/br/br/ blind freddie knows there are 2...br/br/I wise and
knowledgable person such as yourself might understand this, but evidently it is
not that obvious given the constant arguing between Edgar and
Bill!.br/br/hey i thought truth was a forbidden word / notion in zen?
Bingo!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Now you're stuck in the relative. How can you apply your
understanding of the absolute in this
matter?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
I heard he shot his woman down.br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
br/Bill!,br/br/No. Worse than that. Caught her agreeing with
Edgar.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/That's exactly right! When you're mindful of the body-mind -
*that's* where you'll find and know reality. Only then can practice
begin.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Edgar,br/br/How about a bat or an ant? Plus, my reality is different to
yours. This iPad in front of me creates many sensations and perceptions, yet
for you it doesn't exist. But my previous point is that you can't know if
something is what you perceive it to be. The perception is more crucial
Edgar, br/br/I think you'll find that I've been arguing here that just
THIS! isn't really the full picture. But anyway, I completely disagree with
you. Yes, there is an ultimate reality, but that reality can only be known
subjectively. That's why my iPad creates sensations for me, but
Edgar,br/br/When have you ever said that?? Btw, ego has nothing to do with
my stance. I've been stating the Buddhist line ever since I've been here and
you've just about disagreed with everything I've ever said (or just got basic
Buddhist principles plain wrong). br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from
Edgar,br/br/You still haven't answered. You seem to be far more interested
in metaphysical entanglements than reality. Like I said previously, reality has
many definitions, but the one that counts is the one that affects our mental
processes and how we respond to them. Trying to figure out
Edgar,br/br/But you don't experience reality like that. Do you have to
understand the endocrine system to take a pee?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Edgar,br/br/There many gold standards for what reality is, but surely what
we experience as humans is all we have to go on? If I see a snake at night, how
I react at that time is far more important than in the morning realising it was
just a piece of old rope. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from
Edgar,br/br/Sorry, I'm not following. What difference does it make whether
it's a snake or a piece of rope if thats what I sincerely perceive at the time?
It's my reaction that is important. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Edgar,br/br/Seriously, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. How
would I know if it's a snake and not a piece of rope - especially if my
reaction was to avoid it believing it to be poisonous? What if i killed it
believing it was a snake I believed to be poisonous, but it turned out to
Merle,br/br/If we're talking about the same 'shrooms, then do you know you
by posting them you could face a 2 to 25 year sentence and possible forfeiture
of your house? Best hang onto them until I make it over to NSW
sometime!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Congrats on your sale - it must be satisfying to have someone
appreciate what you do to the point of paying money for it.br/br/I agree
with Bill! that art, maths are only universal in that they apply to humans. The
only things that are truly universal are the factors Buddha found:
Merle,br/br/Yeh, but I was originally talking about the shrooms they
traditionally don't serve in your local restaurant.. ;
)br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
br/Merle,br/br/If you go to Mars or the furthest galaxy away from us you
will find impermanence, cause and effect, dependent origination, but you won't
find art. In relative terms, your 2 hands exist and can be seen, touched etc.,
but the number '2' exists only in logic and the minds of
Now we're on the same page!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bill!br/br/You're becoming quite the 'Buddhist'! Glad you can see that just
saying, Just THIS! doesn't suit all
occasions.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
There's life on Mars? You'd better break the news to David
Bowie!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
You mean you knew and you were going to send them by mail?? You rebel,
you!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/I think the confusion here is because you're referring to the
relative (nothing wrong with that!) and Bill! is talking from the
absolute.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Um You asked for my postal address!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPad
Well, at least something that can reproduce! Are you saying there's no
difference between organic and inorganic material?? I've yet to meet a rock
that can do calculus, finger-paint or whistle a
tune!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Umm, they're lyrics from a song by Elton
John.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Yes, a rock is inorganic. And it can't perform art, language or
math. Therefore they are not universal. A rock, however, is impermanent, has no
inherent self and exist due to prior conditions. These things *are* universal.
I can't explain it clearer than that.br/br/in·or·gan·ic
Merle,br/br/I'd say the opposite is true. Rocks 'exist' because we name and
label them as such.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/A sunset just is. In Zen terms, adding adjectives to it is
like painting legs on a snake. Beauty is not intrinsic to a sunset. In fact, it
doesn't even exist *in itself* when you consider it only appears from the
perspective of where you stand to view it.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent
Merle,br/br/I'm sure you did! I was just giving you the Zen view about
'adding nothing'.br/br/ Btw, if you're seeing snakes with legs then I want
some of those wild mountain mushrooms you must be cooking.. ;
)br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
NOO!! Merle, I think we have different kinds of mushrooms
in mind!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bill!,br/br/It's just two sides of the same coin. Zen just gets you to
awaken with very little explanation and instruction - The sutras explain the
processes of the mind that create a self and suffering and the steps necessary
to awaken and be liberated. Both work. Zen is a steep cliff-face
Bill!,br/br/What happened in your past? A Buddhist monk steal your
girlfriend from you or something?? You're so way off understanding what
Buddhism is. Can you honestly say you've studied Buddhism or are you just going
by what you see lay followers in Thailand do? Do you really think John in
Bill!,br/br/Let's not forget the Composer heard the music before the notes
were laid down.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bill!,br/br/Thing is tho, I see people following Zen who seem to get stuck
along the way far more than in traditional Buddhism. If Zen is so simple and
direct - why aren't practitioners instantly 'transported' to the top of the
mountain? Your criticism of Buddhist practitioners would seem to
Bill!,br/br/Gotta go boxing. I'll carry on when I get
back.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Edgar,br/br/It's just an analogy. Calm down. Besides, if all it takes is to
just look around, then why have you written 300 pages to say
that?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
You got it!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/They said so themselves.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPad
br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and
none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with
formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying here? Evidence of what?
And do you really think a symphony could be written without musical notation
(never mind performed or taught!)?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo!
Mail for iPad
Bill!, Edgar,br/br/It's funny to hear you to argue that you think you both
have a better way to the truth than the Buddhadharma. Goes to show what a
formidable little critter the ego is. And to think you two both argue about its
delusional nature! Lmfao! : )br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo!
Bill!,br/br/1) Actually, the Noble Eightfold Path (NEP) is divided into 3
categories: br/br/Ethical Conduct: (right speech; right
livelihood)br/Mental Development: (right effort; right mindfulness; right
concentration)br/Wisdom: (right intention; right view)br/br/2) On What is
Rightbr/br/Right
Bill!,br/br/The only thing I would say in response is that the Buddha
Dharma is far more that just a tool to motivate, but is actually a path that
can take you to the other shore ( I know, I know! There is no other shore ;
)br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
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