So I'm looking to build a home disk server (with some database and web
activity, and email) using ZFS and hence Solaris, and I'm finding it hard to
locate hardware that's known to work.
I need a tower server, and something with office-level rather than lab-level
noise output. I need an
One of the obvious big differences between RAID-Z and RAID-5 is that Z can be
run on just two disks. I do note it suggests you really want three, but I've
run it on two (slices rather than whole disks, in a small test environment) and
it works and recovers from removal or severe damage to
So the question becomes, what are the tradeoffs
between running a two-way
mirror vs. running RAID-Z on two disks?
A two-way mirror would be better -- no parity
generation, and you have
the ability to attach/detach for more or less
replication. (We could
optimize the RAID-Z code for
Something like a Sun Ultra-20/X2100? These use a
fairly generic Opteron-based
motherboard with the familiar all-in-one I/O chipset.
The product differentiation
omes in the form factor, service processor, high
quality power supplies,
expandability, etc.
Yes, or the X4100. I believe
and cleanly. I think this is a way I haven't read about
before, and it makes perfect sense and seems fairly cheap (you only
have to look at all 128 on startup).
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, adding a second RAIDZ, is fine, and
doesn't compromise reliability.
It does, as you say, take up another whole parity disk (or two in your
raidz2 case). And requires add-ons to be in units bigger than just
one drive.
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RKBA
at once.
With the transactional nature and rotating pool of top-level blocks, I
think it will be pretty darned hard to corrupt a structure *short of*
deliberate damage exceeding the redundancy of the vdev. If you
succeed, you've found a bug, don't forget to report it!
--
David Dyer-Bennet, mailto
. I suspect it's something
that will come up in testing a LOT more than in real production use.
Although accidentally adding a device to the wrong thing is an
unfixable error at the moment, which is not good.
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On Thu, Jul 13, 2006 at 09:44:18AM -0500, Al Hopper wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
Adam Leventhal [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm not sure I even agree with the notion that this is a real
problem (and if it is, I don't think is easily solved). Stripe
widths
ZFS filesystems via SAMBA? Will some
kind of PC-NFS work better? And what about a MAC (client, I mean)?
And will this model take an IPMI card? It's not listed as an option
on the Supermicro site.
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be not worrying about this so
much?
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leading to trouble (running out of disk). Why do people set
systems up that way?
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motivated
to change the defaults unless they're convinced of a very good reason for it.
After the third time one or the other partition filled up while the
other one had lots of space, it seemed like a no-brainer to me.
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RKBA
On 8/15/06, Peter Bortas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 8/15/06, David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 8/15/06, Richard Elling - PAE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This can be configured with the local mail delivery agent. You could even
put incoming mail in someone's $HOME, however
On 8/15/06, Frank Cusack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On August 15, 2006 2:37:27 PM -0500 David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Oy, Kerberos. Never heard of any place that actually *uses* it, and
Lots of places use it.
Intellectually, I'm sure that's true -- because that much work
, shouldn't some of these error messages end up in some kind of
log file on disk somewhere? I found /var/log/syslog, and some other
log files nearby, and none of them had any disk-related issues at all.
Are those log files kept somewhere else entirely?
--
David Dyer-Bennet, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], http
On 9/9/06, Frank Cusack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On September 8, 2006 9:34:29 PM -0500 David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
My first real-hardware Solaris install. I've installed S10 u2 on a
system with an Asus M2n-SLI Deluxe nForce 570-SLI motherboard, Athlon
64 X2 dual core CPU
.
--
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On 9/9/06, Frank Cusack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On September 9, 2006 10:51:30 AM -0500 David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I see suggestions on what might be a usable workaround (basically
telling zfs manually to stop using the disk before physically removing
it), and a hope that full
On 9/9/06, Frank Cusack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On September 9, 2006 10:51:30 AM -0500 David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On 9/9/06, Frank Cusack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On September 8, 2006 9:34:29 PM -0500 David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
My first real-hardware Solaris
On 9/9/06, Dale Ghent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sep 9, 2006, at 12:04 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
Thanks, that seems fairly clear. So another approach I could take is
to buy one of the supported controllers, if they're available on a
card I could plug in.
The Silicon Image chipset
of guaranty provided by use of redundancy at the pool level.
Furthermore, as others have pointed out, this feature would add a high
degree of user-visible complexity.
From what I've seen here so far, I think this is a bad idea and should
not be added.
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. You're
probably right that fewer people would mind having *more* space than
an unthinking reading would show than less.
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failures.
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them feel safer *by making them
actually safer*.
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Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/
___
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On 9/18/06, Richard Elling - PAE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[appologies for being away from my data last week]
David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
The more I look at it the more I think that a second copy on the same
disk doesn't protect against very much real-world risk. Am I wrong
here? Are partial
On 9/19/06, Richard Elling - PAE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[pardon the digression]
David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
On 9/18/06, Richard Elling - PAE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Interestingly, the operation may succeed and yet we will get an error
which recommends replacing the drive. For example
.
This area seems to be a major minefield currently.
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___
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everything it carries. That'll tell you if the problem is
network performance, encryption overhead, or ZFS behavior.
For that matter, do the zfs send to /dev/null; that'll let you measure
the inescapable minimum ZFS part of the time.
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.
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needs to be done);
I don't insist that it work out-of-the-box, just that I be able to get
it working.
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A lot of this we're clearly not going to agree on and I've said what I
had to contribute. There's one remaining point, though...
On 10/5/06, Erik Trimble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 16:08 -0700, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
Actually, save early and often is exactly why
-discuss] solaris-supported 8-port PCI-X SATA controller
To: David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I am not able to directly reply to the list for some reason but the
only one that is supported
with the Marvell driver at this point is this one:
http://www.8anet.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2655lastcatid
it would have
been helpful.
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complex than snapshots alone). But
if people are going to decide against file versioning, I'd prefer it
to be based on a more accurate understanding of how it plays to users
:-).
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. This technology isn't completely lost yet
:-).
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but keep writing
transactions in ways that the OS can't isolate without input from the
app. E.g., databases. fsync(2) helps here, but lots and lots of
fsync(2)s would result in no useful versioning.
None of those are candidates for file versioning, and a darned good thing, too.
--
David Dyer
On 10/6/06, Erik Trimble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
On 10/6/06, Nicolas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Maybe Erik would find it confusing. I know I would find it
_annoying_.
Then leave it set to 1 version
Per-directory? Per-filesystem?
Whatever. What's
.
It has nothing to do with writing to files; if you update a file in
place, a new version isn't generated.
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it as
a minefield.
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ended up getting
screwed. Yeah, I'm a little bitter about this.
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Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info
performance without regard to
reliability.
Also, stacking it on top of an existing RAID setup is kinda missing
the entire point!
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Dragaera/Steven Brust
are always really drastic.
Now, in an uncompressed TIFF file, it'd be mostly invisible, because
it would affect only one pixel.
The issue is that jpeg is a heavily compressed format; the next data
always depends on the previous data, so everything after an error is
changed.
--
David Dyer-Bennet
On 11/28/06, Elizabeth Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 11/28/06, David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Looks to me like another example of ZFS noticing and reporting an
error that would go quietly by on any other filesystem. And if you're
concerned with the integrity of the data
realized that
was one of the problem points. (Probably too focused on the ZFS
content to think about the general issues enough!)
Very glad you're back in service, anyway!
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Richard Elling wrote:
What I would do:
2 disks: slice 0 3 root (BE and ABE), slice 1 swap/dump, slice 6
ZFS mirror
2 disks: whole disk mirrors
I don't understand slice 6 zfs mirror. A mirror takes *two* things of
the same size.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd
?
It is unlikely that the data you care about will be in just one of the
two sets, given how ZFS spreads data around.
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(not meaning to denigrate the professionalism of
anybodies home network of course). We can run to the store and buy
something rather quicker than lots of professional outfits seem to be
able to get spares in hand.
But what if you're away on business that week?
--
David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL
more vdevs (of appropriate redundancy) to your pool. (You can
also add vdevs of inappropriate redundancy, and that works fine, except
for the minor matter of the safety of your data.)
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Pics: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum, http
long-term, and the lack of any efficient easy way to back up and restore
the data (I *do* back it up to external firewire disks, but it takes 8
hours or so, so I don't want to have to have the system down for a full
two-way copy when I need to upgrade the disk sizes).
--
David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL
Christopher Gibbs wrote:
On 9/27/07, David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How long are you going to need this data? Do you have an easy and quick
way to back it all up? Is the volume you need going to grow over time?
For *my* home server, the need to expand over time ended up
at once to get the new capacity, so I
felt that sticking to mirrors (meaning only two disks in the vdev) was
more suitable for my expected future history.
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paid-for but unused capacity lying
around, and given the price and size of disk drives, that's a money-saver.
On 9/27/07, David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
Sure, that's the same process I have in mind, it's just that you have to
replace all the disks in the vdev at once to get
Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/
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otherwise perfect, but in the real world consumers have other reliability
issues to worry about that occur multiple orders of magnitude more frequently
than the kinds that ZFS protects against.
And yet I know many people who have lost data in ways that ZFS would
have prevented.
--
David Dyer
being only on the one roll of film back when I shot film.
The cameras currently in the field do not, of course, support writing to
cards formatted with ZFS, so it's not a practical choice today.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b
.
You need to get a grip and try to understand the *specifics* of what's being
discussed here if you want to carry on a coherent discussion about it.
You need to make your language less personal and emotional when engaging
in public technical discussions.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL
jumping ahead to agreeing that the space involved wasn't a
big factor so it didn't matter much for this discussion.
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; it's one of the things the original Unix
developers couldn't afford, so they had to try to write something that
would work for them and would run on hardware they *could* afford (the
other one was Multics of course).
--
David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd
interchangeable between
applications; but I'm not interested in trying to defend this position
for weeks based on 25-year-old memories.
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, which is good. ZFS can give me a view equivalent to an
incremental, can't it? Which I could then copy somewhere suitable?
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Richard Elling wrote:
David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
I'm interested in the same question. I'm looking at what to use for
backup from my Solaris file server. I've had rather bad experiences
with external Firewire and USB disks, especially in performance
(can't be absolutely sure the problem
would Firewire 400 be? How much does it depend on the
controller? My M2n-sli-deluxe motherboard has IEEE 1394, and there are
some hits on 1394 in syslog during startup, so that looks vaguely
hopeful.
I'm not unhappy with backing up 24GB in 14 minutes, all in all.
--
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it. Not
*necessarily* on different disks, but it *tries* to put it on different
disks. Over time isn't necessarily an issue, since a new full backup
could be done into a clean filesystem.
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Photos
before disconnecting an external device with a ZFS pool
on it? (Single device, simple pool, no redundancy).
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Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
autosnapshot script
may be just what I need for that part, though.)
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, somewhere
near the times.)
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destroy large portions of
a pool and cause unexpected behavior for mounted file
systems in use.
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easy to achieve. Simply place your code
explicitly in the public domain.
So stop trying to muck up what lots of the rest of us want, which is that
developments based on free code *stay* free, okay?
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to
an external 1TB drive easily.)
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Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b
format).
The enterprise features figure prominently, especially snapshots. And
it's a BIG DEAL for me to know that a scrub has verified data even if I
haven't accessed it lately; old photos in my collection are still
important to me.
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night, unless somebody says they need the
data, in which case I can work on getting the data out, if anybody can
give me some clues on *how* to get the data out.
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, I believe
that's nv101 code (or 101b?). What's my next step?
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___
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the memory, and no more problems).
Which leaves me wondering, how safe is running a scrub? Scrub is one of
the things that made ZFS so attractive to me, and my automatic reaction
when I first hook up the data disks during a recovery is run a scrub!.
--
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anything, and have very little risk of actually losing
a LOT.
But what I'm wondering is, are there known bugs in 101b that make
scrubbing inadvisable with that code? I'd love to *find out* what horrors
may be lurking.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd
On Fri, January 23, 2009 12:01, Glenn Lagasse wrote:
* David Dyer-Bennet (d...@dd-b.net) wrote:
But what I'm wondering is, are there known bugs in 101b that make
scrubbing inadvisable with that code? I'd love to *find out* what
horrors
may be lurking.
There's nothing in the release notes
on that liveCD. I *did* try
the 2008.11 liveCD, in addition to my installation, and they both crash
when I import the pool.
And I'm not going to do anything drastic and permanent today after all.
Hoping for insight from somebody!
On Sat, January 31, 2009 22:51, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
As I've said
them anyway.
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to have to recreate my data pool
(and restore from backups), I should deal with this at the same time. If
I can. I'll watch for answers to your actual question here, and if
necessary conduct a small-scale test of my own and report back.
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far too frequently. My particular example is an OCZ Core 2 64GB
unit. Oh; I should say I've been through the list of registry tweaks, and
I can't see they've helped more than a little.)
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
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something; I wonder if I'll remember it long enough to do
any good?
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
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Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
is going to be disastrously slow.
I'd say cp -a is the way to go, but I'm guessing that's not supported
under Solaris (don't have my system handy right now).
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
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about -- using zfs send piped through ssh (or
in some other way going from one system to another) is also sensitive to
this versioning issue.
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery
mypictures.zfssnap.split.a{a..g} testjoin
The first should work (unless they really broke the shell)
(Yes. I test it, and yes it works)
Good, because that's a syntax I still remember and use. And it has indeed
worked for me recently as well.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net
of ram even
for a home fileserver.
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
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Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
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zfs
On Thu, February 5, 2009 12:22, Will Murnane wrote:
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 13:10, David Dyer-Bennet d...@dd-b.net wrote:
On Thu, February 5, 2009 12:01, Eric D. Mudama wrote:
On Thu, Feb 5 at 17:46, Karl Rossing wrote:
Would there be another inexpensive way to add zil and l2arc to a
home
and label and
file 56 DVD-DL disks.
Looks like DL disks are of similar price (per GB) to external USB drives
-- and external drives can be used for more than one backup. (Rather
similar meaning within a factor of two either way; I only checked prices
one place.)
--
David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd
probably learn to stop worrying about it.
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
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Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
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to replicate the entire vdev.
Often people with 4 hot-swap bays running a 4-disk raidz.
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
is kinda scary. Turns out I'd
rather have 99% of my data than 0% -- who knew? :-) I'd much rather have
100.00% than either of course, and I'm running ZFS with mirroring, and
doing regular backups, because of that.
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd
disconnect of some sort, which might require hot-swap
hardware, but that's something one could live with. And if the
qualification procedure were widely believed to be good, aggregating
results would be useful.
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b
on the topic somewhat confusing, but
for what it's worth they're at
http://dd-b.net/ddbcms/2009/01/opensolaris-zfs-root-pool-mirroring/.
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http
that I've had a disk error in many cases (not quite
identical to determining that the data is still valid; after all, the data
and the checksum could have been corrupted in such a way that I get a
false positive on the checksum).
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http
to
handle a hot unplug without any prior notice without going belly up.
By chance, certainly not design.
No, I do think it's by design -- it's because the design isn't
aggressively exploiting possible performance.
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b
On Wed, February 11, 2009 10:49, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
On Wed, 11 Feb 2009, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
This all-or-nothing behavior of ZFS pools is kinda scary. Turns out I'd
rather have 99% of my data than 0% -- who knew? :-) I'd much rather
have
100.00% than either of course, and I'm
On Wed, February 11, 2009 12:23, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
On Wed, 11 Feb 2009, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
Then again, I've never lost data during the learning period, nor on the
rare occasions where I just get it wrong. This is good; not quite
remembering to eject a USB memory stick is *so
On Wed, February 11, 2009 13:45, Ian Collins wrote:
David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
I've spent $2000 on hardware and, by now, hundreds of hours of my time
trying to get and keep a ZFS-based home NAS working.
Hundreds of hours doing what? I just plugged in the drives, built the
pool and left
batteries to keep an IBM mainframe
running for three hours.
One can certainly do it if one wants to badly enough, which one should if
the data is important. I can't imagine anybody investing in 100TB of
enterprise-grade storage if the data WASN'T important!
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http
than that. I suppose we're dealing with
people who didn't work with floppies here, where that lesson got pretty
solidly beaten in to people :-.
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
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are committed.
Which is something Unix has been claiming (or pretending) to provide for
some time now, yes.
The lesson is that unprofessional hardware may prove to be unreliable
for professional usage.
Or any other usage. And the question is how can we tell them apart?
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David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd
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