Re: [zfs-discuss] Apple's ZFS-alike - Re: Does raidzN actually protect against bitrot? If yes - how?

2012-01-16 Thread David Magda 
On Mon, January 16, 2012 11:22, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
> This seems very unlikely since the future needs of Apple show little
> requirement for zfs.  Apple only offers one computer model which
> provides ECC and a disk drive configuration which is marginally useful
> for zfs.  This computer model has a very limited user-base which is
> primarily people in the video and desktop imaging/publishing world.
> Apple already exited the server market, for which they only ever
> offered single limited-use model (Xserve).

Having "real" snapshots would certainly help Time Machine. That said,
Apple has managed to add on-disk Time Machine snapshots and better
encryption in 10.7 (Lion) via a logical file manager:

http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7.ars/13

Zpools aren't the only feature in ZFS after all. Oh well.

> There would likely be a market if someone was to sell pre-packaged zfs
> for Apple OS-X at a much higher price than the operating system
> itself.

Already a product:

http://tenscomplement.com/
http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/03/how-zfs-is-slowly-making-its-way-to-mac-os-x.ars


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Re: [zfs-discuss] Apple's ZFS-alike - Re: Does raidzN actually protect against bitrot? If yes - how?

2012-01-16 Thread Chris Ridd 

On 16 Jan 2012, at 16:56, Rich Teer wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Jan 2012, Freddie Cash wrote:
> 
>>> There would likely be a market if someone was to sell pre-packaged zfs for
>>> Apple OS-X at a much higher price than the operating system itself.
> 
> 10's Complement (?) are planning such a thing, although I have no idea
> on their pricing.  The software is still in development.

They have announced pricing for 2 of their 4 ZFS products: see 
.

Chris
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Apple's ZFS-alike - Re: Does raidzN actually protect against bitrot? If yes - how?

2012-01-16 Thread Rich Teer 
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012, Freddie Cash wrote:

> As an FS for their TimeMachine NAS boxes (Time Capsule, I think),
> though, ZFS would be a good fit.  Similar to how the Time Slider works
> in Sun/Oracle's version of Nautilus/GNOME2.  Especially if they expand
> the boxes to use 4 drives (2x mirror), and had the pool
> pre-configured.

Agreed.

> As a desktop/laptop FS, though, ZFS (in its current incarnation) is
> overkill and unwieldy.  Especially since most of these machines only
> have room for a single HD.

I respectfully disagree: end-to-end checksums are always a good thing,
and simple single-drive {desk,lap}top could use a single pool and gain
all the benfits of ZFS with none of the "unweildyness", although again
I disagree that ZFS is unweildy.

> > There would likely be a market if someone was to sell pre-packaged zfs for
> > Apple OS-X at a much higher price than the operating system itself.

10's Complement (?) are planning such a thing, although I have no idea
on their pricing.  The software is still in development.

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Rich Teer, Publisher
Vinylphile Magazine
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Apple's ZFS-alike - Re: Does raidzN actually protect against bitrot? If yes - how?

2012-01-16 Thread Freddie Cash 
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Bob Friesenhahn
 wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2012, David Magda wrote:
>> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/zfs-discuss/2009-October/033125.html
>>
>> Perhaps Apple can come to an agreement with Oracle when they couldn't with
>> Sun.
>
> This seems very unlikely since the future needs of Apple show little
> requirement for zfs.  Apple only offers one computer model which provides
> ECC and a disk drive configuration which is marginally useful for zfs.  This
> computer model has a very limited user-base which is primarily people in the
> video and desktop imaging/publishing world. Apple already exited the server
> market, for which they only ever offered single limited-use model (Xserve).

As an FS for their TimeMachine NAS boxes (Time Capsule, I think),
though, ZFS would be a good fit.  Similar to how the Time Slider works
in Sun/Oracle's version of Nautilus/GNOME2.  Especially if they expand
the boxes to use 4 drives (2x mirror), and had the pool
pre-configured.

As a desktop/laptop FS, though, ZFS (in its current incarnation) is
overkill and unwieldy.  Especially since most of these machines only
have room for a single HD.

> There would likely be a market if someone was to sell pre-packaged zfs for
> Apple OS-X at a much higher price than the operating system itself.
>
> Bob
> --
> Bob Friesenhahn
> bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
> GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
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fjwc...@gmail.com
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Apple's ZFS-alike - Re: Does raidzN actually protect against bitrot? If yes - how?

2012-01-16 Thread Bob Friesenhahn 

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012, David Magda wrote:


http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/zfs-discuss/2009-October/033125.html

Perhaps Apple can come to an agreement with Oracle when they couldn't with
Sun.


This seems very unlikely since the future needs of Apple show little 
requirement for zfs.  Apple only offers one computer model which 
provides ECC and a disk drive configuration which is marginally useful 
for zfs.  This computer model has a very limited user-base which is 
primarily people in the video and desktop imaging/publishing world. 
Apple already exited the server market, for which they only ever 
offered single limited-use model (Xserve).


There would likely be a market if someone was to sell pre-packaged zfs 
for Apple OS-X at a much higher price than the operating system 
itself.


Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Apple's ZFS-alike - Re: Does raidzN actually protect against bitrot? If yes - how?

2012-01-16 Thread David Magda 
On Mon, January 16, 2012 11:05, Rich Teer wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Jan 2012, Toby Thain wrote:
>
>> Rumours have long circulated, even before the brief public debacle of
>> ZFS in OS X - "is it in Leopard...yes it's in...no it's not...yes it's
>> in...oh damn, it's really not" - that Apple is building their own clone
>> of ZFS.
>
> I don't know why APple don't just get off the pot and officially adopy
> ZFS. I mean, they've embraced DTrace, so what's stopping them from using
> ZFS too?

This was discussed already:

>> [On Sat Oct 24 14:14:19 UTC 2009, David Magda wrote:]
>>
>> Apple can currently just take the ZFS CDDL code and incorporate it
>> (like they did with DTrace), but it may be that they wanted a "private
>> license" from Sun (with appropriate technical support and
>> indemnification), and the two entities couldn't come to mutually
>> agreeable terms.
>
> I cannot disclose details, but that is the essence of it.

http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/zfs-discuss/2009-October/033125.html

Perhaps Apple can come to an agreement with Oracle when they couldn't with
Sun.


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Re: [zfs-discuss] Apple's ZFS-alike - Re: Does raidzN actually protect against bitrot? If yes - how?

2012-01-16 Thread Rich Teer 
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012, Toby Thain wrote:

> Rumours have long circulated, even before the brief public debacle of ZFS in
> OS X - "is it in Leopard...yes it's in...no it's not...yes it's in...oh damn,
> it's really not" - that Apple is building their own clone of ZFS.

I don't know why APple don't just get off the pot and officially adopy ZFS.
I mean, they've embraced DTrace, so what's stopping them from using ZFS too?

-- 
Rich Teer, Publisher
Vinylphile Magazine
.  *   * . * .* .
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