[ZION] Starts with F Gossip
This is the post that Natasha is keeping to herself. It will probably show up a week or two from now: I choose to discuss Gossip today. I tried this out on FAIR and got no response, so I'm sure ZION can do at least that well. I stumbled across a three part test for sharing information about people and sorting out what is appropriate to tell and what is gossip. You ask yourself these three simple questions: 1. Is this fact about so and so kind? 2. Do I have undisputable knowledge of it, in other words, is it true? 3. Does the person I'm planning to share this with have a need to know? Setting aside certain special relationships of a confidential or ethical nature (for example I can never share things that I learn in my law office about people, even if they are kind, true and someone might have a need to know. Likewise a nurse in the hospital has special ethical responsibilities for what she learns... etc.) But setting those things aside the test is that if you can answer yes to any two of the above you can share it. For example if it comes to your attention that so and so is pregnant. That may or may not be a kind thing depending upon the circumstances. If it's someone you know who has been aching for a child forever and your source is good (it's true) then you can share that happy news with others. But if this is about a 14 year old in your ward, you don't tell anyone else, unless that person has a special need to know. Build your own scenario, apply the test and then let me know about it, especially if you think of applications where the test doesn't work. I'm trying to figure out if it is reliable or not. That's right. For today G is for Gossip. Of course the best test is in Ephesians 4: 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Paul certainly emphasizes the truthfulness and kindness part of the test. The need to know part is just meant to deal with those rare special occasions when unkind things need to be shared. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Farinacci's Test
I remember when Jeff first posted this about 9 years ago--then revised it several times. I also remember some new Zionisti thinking it was a serious survey! Funny thing is, it's still pretty relevant! val On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:51:06 -0900 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: With great fondness I remember a list member, Jeff Farinacci, who delighted us with his New Member Survey. For nostalgia's sake I post it here: Welcome to the ZION List. But before becoming a full-fledged member, you must first fill out this survey and return it back to the list. Thanks for your cooperation. 1. Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? 2. Do you sustain Gordon B. Hinckley as the President of the Church, and as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator? 3. Do you sustain the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators? 4. Do you sustain your local leaders? 5. Are you now or have you ever been involved with, or supported (either financially, emotionally, spiritually, or otherwise) any individual or groups of individuals who are apostates to the Church? 6. WHITE SHIRTS a. Do you own any white shirts? If so, how many? b. Do you wear them on Sunday? c. Have you ever worn a shirt that was not white on Sunday? d. Do you have a white belt and shoes to match? e. Have you ever worn white shoes after Labor Day? 7. WORD OF WISDOM a. Have you ever drank or do you now drink Coca-Cola, or Pepsi? b. Have you ever drank or do you now drink herbal teas ? c. Do you eat chocolate? d. Do you drink Gatorade so you can be like Mike ? e. Do you do these things on Sunday? 8. PLAYING CARDS a. Do you now play or have you ever played cards? b. Do you own playing cards? c. Do you have any card games on your computer? d. Have you ever watched anybody play cards? e. Have you ever known anybody from Las Vegas? f. Is a Royal Flush better than a Full House? 9. FEMINISTS a. Have you ever used the term feminazi before? b. Do you sympathize with the feminist movement or feminist agenda? c. Do you watch or have you ever watched TV talk shows like Sally Jessy Raphael, Oprah, Donahue or Geraldo? 10. POLITICAL AGENDA a. Are you a conservative or liberal? (Please do not answer middle of the road here. You must identify yourself as one or the other.) b. Do you drink Orange Juice? c. Did you vote for Bill Hillary? d. Have you ever listened to or do you now listen to Rush Limbaugh? e. Please list all publications (magazines, newspapers etc) you read. 11. CHURCH a. Please describe any and all callings that you have had in the Church. b. When do you think the Second Coming of the Lord will be? c. Do you consider yourself to be an iron rodder? d. Do you play basketball? What position? Height? 12. SACRAMENT a. Do you take the sacrament with your right hand? b. Do you save the bread until the water comes? c. Do you smack others who take the sacrament with their left hand? d. Are you left-handed? e. Have you ever sneezed on the sacrament trays? 13. SPIRIT BIRTH When does the spirit enter the body? a. Immediately after conception b. After conception but before birth c. At birth d. After birth but before the age of eight e. I've known some people who had no soul at all. 14. GUNS a. Do you think that guns are immoral or unchristian? b. Do you own any guns? If so, list them. Attach a separate page, if needed. c. Have you ever fired a gun? When was the last time? d. Do you support the right to bear arms? e. Do you support the right to arm bears? f. Are you a member of the NRA, NOW, BSA, FBI, CIA, JBS, or CNN? 15. MEDIA a. Do you think the media is biased? b. Do you trust what the media reports? c. Do you think it is okay to bash the media? 16. MISSIONARY WORK a. Did you serve a mission? If so, where? b. Did you get married within 18 months of returning? c. Can you still fit into your mission clothes? d. How many ties do you own? 17. MISCELLANEOUS a. Do you ever use the term GA to refer to a General Authority? b. Do you ever refer to Church Leaders by their initials? c. Do you own a ouija board? d. Do you own a dartboard? e. How does Teflon stick to the pan? f. Why are manhole covers round? g. Do you have a garden at home? Have you ever grown zucchini? If so, what is the largest zucchini you've grown? h. Do you wear a mask at Halloween? Do you wear a mask at any other time of the year? i. Do you eat Lime Jell-O? j.
RE: [ZION] About Marc
-Steven- I think highly of you too. Are you sure you don't want to reconsider and be a part of ZION again? Steven, I'm flattered that you even remember me. My good friend John has asked that I return, as well. Guess he thought there wasn't enough bickering on the list... As you might be able to tell from my delayed response, I have very little time these days for online correspondence, but I will keep my Zion membership active and see if I can contribute occasionally. Thanks for the warm welcome. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts with F Gossip
Gossip is cruel. It destroys lives. It damages self-esteem. It destroys friendships. It breaks up marriages. It weakens families. It is a fundamental violation of one of the Ten Commandments: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. If one hasn't got anything nice to say about someone, he ought to shut his trap. --JWR -- reply separator - Tom Matkin wrote: This is the post that Natasha is keeping to herself. It will probably show up a week or two from now: I choose to discuss Gossip today. I tried this out on FAIR and got no response, so I'm sure ZION can do at least that well. I stumbled across a three part test for sharing information about people and sorting out what is appropriate to tell and what is gossip. You ask yourself these three simple questions: 1. Is this fact about so and so kind? 2. Do I have undisputable knowledge of it, in other words, is it true? 3. Does the person I'm planning to share this with have a need to know? Setting aside certain special relationships of a confidential or ethical nature (for example I can never share things that I learn in my law office about people, even if they are kind, true and someone might have a need to know. Likewise a nurse in the hospital has special ethical responsibilities for what she learns... etc.) But setting those things aside the test is that if you can answer yes to any two of the above you can share it. For example if it comes to your attention that so and so is pregnant. That may or may not be a kind thing depending upon the circumstances. If it's someone you know who has been aching for a child forever and your source is good (it's true) then you can share that happy news with others. But if this is about a 14 year old in your ward, you don't tell anyone else, unless that person has a special need to know. Build your own scenario, apply the test and then let me know about it, especially if you think of applications where the test doesn't work. I'm trying to figure out if it is reliable or not. That's right. For today G is for Gossip. Of course the best test is in Ephesians 4: 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Paul certainly emphasizes the truthfulness and kindness part of the test. The need to know part is just meant to deal with those rare special occasions when unkind things need to be shared. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wish List
-JWR- I am compiling a wish list of people I miss, people that I wish would actively participate on the list. Would any of you care to help me make my wish list? Any such list would be doubtless incomplete, but in addition to those you've listed, I would have to add (of course) Marc Schindler, as well as Chris Grant (a worthwhile addition to any list) and Greg Prince (who probably didn't fit in here as well as some others politically, but who always had thoughtful posts and compelling ideas). Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Apostate Cat
Stephen Beecroft wrote: Actually, this is my recast version of Tom's poem, which was a bit freer and less versificated. I would hate for Tom to get blamed for my pedantry. :) I used it as a practice piece to see if I could impose some structure, and rather fancied the result. I don't have Tom's original, but I can write to him to get it, unless someone else has it. He posted it this morning, and accurately identified your version. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Apostate Cat
-Tom- The version of my poem that you have posted was a reworked version by Stephen Beecroft. Please disregard my previous post. ;) Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts with F Gossip
At 10:25 AM 11/3/2003 -0700, Uncle Presidente wrote: You ask yourself these three simple questions: 1. Is this fact about so and so kind? 2. Do I have undisputable knowledge of it, in other words, is it true? 3. Does the person I'm planning to share this with have a need to know? I suspect there are breakdowns in the system. Using your pregnancy example, I remember an instance where I was privy to such information, looked on favorably by the individual involved (quite excited, actually) (kindness test). I was given this information in confidence directly from the source (knowledge test). There were people who had a need to know (the family for example), but I know that I was correct in letting the individual personally disseminate the knowledge when and where she chose and just keep it to myself until it was a matter of public knowledge. Generally, though, I think it's a pretty sound test. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Wish List
At 05:26 PM 11/2/2003 -0900, you wrote: I am compiling a wish list of people I miss, people that I wish would actively participate on the list. Would any of you care to help me make my wish list? I can think of three quickly. Patty Crossett, Ron Scott (always good as a foil for the BLT), and D. Craig Huls. These are three that I have met face to face. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wish List
-JWR- You may be getting this news late, but Marc Schindler passed away in his sleep a little more than a week ago. I will miss him terribly. He was a real pillar of the Zion list. Yes, I had heard. In fact, I resubbed to Zion a while ago to express my condolences. I figured if we were making a wish list, though, I could wish as I wished... Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wish List
Yes, I had heard. In fact, I resubbed to Zion a while ago to express my condolences. I figured if we were making a wish list, though, I could wish as I wished... Stephen Well, if that's how we are wishing I'll bet Oliver Cowdery would be an interesting guy on Zion, and how about Nephi? Sam would be a super lurker. And what about J. Golden Kimball? And I think Esther and Ruth would be good. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Introduction
Friends: Like me, some of you may suffer from increasingly short-term memory loss and others here don't know me at all. So an introduction. Perhaps the best personal introduction is embodied in a message I recently sent to the members of Mormon-L, responding to a request that I comment on President Hinckley's ego. -Original Message- From: Christian Kamler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 9:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Mormon-l] General Conference Ø I wonder if Ron could comment on his impressions of the man with regard to ego. Some have felt there is some possibility of that. --Ron Scott Responds-- I'm not sure whether the last sentence above refers to President Hinckley's ego, or that some here felt I may be willing to share my impressions of him. I'll assume it's a reference to both. Some background: GBH was my dad's seminary teacher at South High; after serving a mission to Brazil (and Navy, for The Big WWII) my dad served under him on a team assigned to translate the DC, TPOGP, into Portuguese; GBH was a counselor in the stake presidency when our family moved to East Millcreek in 1955; my dad briefly tutored his oldest daughter, in chemistry; his middle daughter, Virginia (Virginia Hinckley Pearce), was my closest friend in high school and early college (a short-story I wrote about her in college launched my career as a writer) and, as a result, I have spent many hours in the Hinckley home, tended the younger Hinckley children; since college, as a journalist I have had several professional encounters (in NYC and SLC) with GBH, directly and indirectly; Wendall Ashton, GBH's life-long friend and former missionary companion and church public communications director, former publisher of the Deseret News, was a good friend of mine as well (his daughter was also a close friend in high school/college). So to the question: Does GBH have an ego? The answer: Don't we all? The implied question: Does GBH have an out-sized ego? The answer: No. Would he be delighted if the new conference center was renamed in his honor after he's gone? Assuming hes in a condition to be delighted about anything, I'd imagine the answer would be yes. I'd be delighted if the Powers That Be selected the alternative name: The Scott Conference Center -- in honor of my father, of course. Seriously, he has never impressed me as being arrogant (I can't say that of others I know in the FP and Q12). But determined and confidant and pragmatic? Yes. Absolutely yes. Does he have a testimony of God? Yes he does. I have heard him pray at home many times. No audience. It was like listening to one side of a telephone conversation between old friends. And, as I wrote above, he is pragmatic. Although I cant verify the authenticity of the account of his meeting in the temple with bishops and stake presidents, the report is consistent with what I sensed of his approach to the gospel. To wit and I paraphrase: take it one step at a time, apply what you know to be true hoping that it will lead you to the next discovery of truth; if the Joseph Smith story leaves you cold, focus on/apply what he taught it will make you a better man, father, citizen. I sensed that his pragmatic approach to the gospel may have been the root cause of his reaction to the Salamander letter. My words: he may have been so familiar with the hocus-pocus elements of our history, that he figured the forged (as it turned out) document could be yet another troublesome historical artifact. As he was more interested in the good the gospel does in the lives of people, he may have felt it was his responsibility to eliminate or suppress something that may turn away people who would otherwise benefit greatly by applying the gospel in their everyday lives. I seek not to justify his reaction to the letter it puzzled me as much as it did anyone however I do think pragmatism and doing the greater good may have driven and shaped his reaction. Some would love it if he would openly forsake the magical aspects of church history. Some would love it if more focus was placed on the practical aspects of Mormonism rather than the things that are harder to swallow. Of course some gripe that so much has been changed and ignored, that were getting rather too much like the Anglicans and Presbyterians. I mean, whod-a-thunk there would be an official lesson finally clarifying the grace business (I havent read the lesson, but Ill bet I can guess its central message: but for Christs freely-granted grace, we would be toast, no matter our good works). Liberals gripe that GBH is The Flack-meister, the personification of the organization man; fundamentalists and conservatives worry that he fits the description of a Korihor or Signaturi, the proverbial wolf in sheeps clothing. And Mike Wallace and Larry King thought he was the closest thing to Jesus theyd ever interviewed. I like him. I especially
Re: [ZION] Starts with F Gossip
Shouldn't someone change the subject line to Starts with Z Spelling? -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Wish List
Heck, Ron. I was just thinking about you the other day. Are you still writing poetry? I lost my husband last year, and I've been cleaning things out ever since. I found some of the poems that you had sent way back when. Re-reading them really struck a different chord with me. They mean much more to me now than they did then. I think last time I heard from you, Boston saints and the church were still fighting city hall about the temple and the height of the spire. So, how have you been? val On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:55:29 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Didn't know I was a foil. But, if I wasn't a kosher kind of guy I could go for a BLT. What is a BLT, anyway? BTW, Elmer, my youngest is dancing the Nutcracker. Don't know why JWR recruited me, but I've never known an invitation I didn't accept, especially from him. Ron Scott Still in Boston / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts with F Gossip
Subject: Re: [ZION] Starts with F Gossip Shouldn't someone change the subject line to Starts with Z Spelling? -- Ronn! :) It's a code Ronn!!nnoR edoc a s'tI It's a code edoc a s'tI It's a a s'tI It's G s'tI It's a a s'tI It's a code edoc a s'tI It's a code Ronn!!nnoR edoc a s'tI Either that or I can't type! Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Introduction
Ron Scott wrote: Enough said? I'm glad to be here. And, thanks again John for inviting me back for a fourth try. You are most welcome, Ron. Every discussion list needs a few good writers and enough difference of opinion to keep the juices of conversation flowing. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
