Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
On Tue, 27 May 2003 23:00:24 -0400 Jon Spencer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I, on the other hand, while watching the situation very carefully, > have not > yet asked for a Prozac prescription. While I do not trust the > government, > neither do I assume evil intent. Indeed. Never ascribe evil intent to something which is more likely inspired by laziness, ignorance, stupidity, or good intentions gone awry because they're not inspired of God. (The last really comes under "stupidity" now that I think of it.) Of course, our common adversary is just as quick to take advantage of laziness, ignorance, and stupidity as of evil intent. *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
OK - I think you are taking a wise stance. George - Original Message - From: "Scott McGee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses > George, > > I don't necessarily see it that way, but I certainly consider that as one > of the likely possibilities. I also see saving the US as a possibility, > and would like to hope that is what happens. My own personal guess would > tend to be more like what you suggest or perhaps saving some small > portion of the US as a constitutionally run entity while the majority of > the US lapses into something less desirable and less livable. > > Scott > > On Wed, 28 May 2003 10:31:19 -0600, "George Cobabe" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > I think that you will find that the elders of the church are not > > prophesied > > to save the constitution, but rather the "principles" of the > > constitution. > > I suggest that means that after the United States has gone down in flames > > the only people that will still be free with the constitutional > > principles > > intact will be the people of Zion. > > > > You might want to read or review Lunds book - "The Coming of the Lord." > > > > George > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:32 PM > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses > > > > > > > Doesn't prophesy say that the Elders will save it? But prophesy also says > > > that the Elders will be killed so there will be a 7 to 1 ratio of the > > > righteous, women to men. > > > > > > What's a mother (or father for that matter) to do? > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Steven Montgomery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:06 PM > > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses > > > > > > > > > > At 08:19 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: > > > > >It makes me wonder, can it really be long before the Elders of the > > Church > > > > >have to save the constitution? > > > > > > > > > >Scott > > > > > > > > . . . if it can be saved at all. > > > > > -- > Scott McGee > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
I can direct you to our local station's news story and what our local libraries are doing about it. Most libraries already have signs posted telling patrons about the new Patriot Act's policies. http://www.wndu.com/news/contact16/contact16_3291.php val On Wed, 28 May 2003 05:37:40 -0700 Stacy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Well, I'd like more verification that this is actually taking place. > I > understand that "censored e-mails" have just been a joke. I'd like > to have > verification that the government is keeping tabs on what I am doing > at the > Braille Institute, for example, or what I'm doing in my doctor's > office. Or how about what books I download off the NLS web braille > > site? I'd like verification of what is happening. > > Stacy. > > At 02:35 PM 05/27/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > >Okay Zionisti: > > > >For a long time, I have perused and mused as I read John > Redelfs' > >thoughts on conspiricy theories. You see, I grew up with a dad who > spoke > >very much the way John does, and so, as progeny often will, I > >intentionally went opposite in my thinking from where my dad was. > > > >See, I had this altruistic view of our government, that they > wouldn't > >intentionally do things that would harm us. My dad must have read > one > >too many books etc. etc. > > > >Now-- ever since 9/11 I feel that our government has been doing > its > >darndest to, not gently erode the constitution, but to take > massive > >chunks of our freedoms under the thinly guised pretense of > protecting us. > > This has bothered me for some time, and I get uneasy everytime I > hear > >people say "I understand why they need to search my body for > hidden > >weapons. . .blah blah blah [or should I say baaa baaa baaa]." > > > >Tonight, though, came the straw. Under the provisions of the > Patriot Act > >(sounds so. . .patriotic!) the feds can, at will, check out what > you are > >reading and checking out at your library!! This includes not only > books, > >but ANYTHING you've read on the Internet. Of course, "they" say > that it > >is only used for suspected terrorists etc., but come on!! The > news also > >reported that they can find out what you've been buying at the book > >stores as well--under the provisions of the Patriot Act. > > > >Our founding fathers must be having fits as they watch the masses > accept > >this with nothing more than a shrug of the shoulders and a quick > "Oh > >well." > > > >Does anyone else see this or feel the same way? Or do I need to > get a > >prescription for Prozac? > > > >your cynical sis in Mishawaka > >val > > > > > >.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. > >«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ > > > > > >The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > >Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > >Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > > > // > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > / > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 03/10/2003 > > / / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > > .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
George, I don't necessarily see it that way, but I certainly consider that as one of the likely possibilities. I also see saving the US as a possibility, and would like to hope that is what happens. My own personal guess would tend to be more like what you suggest or perhaps saving some small portion of the US as a constitutionally run entity while the majority of the US lapses into something less desirable and less livable. Scott On Wed, 28 May 2003 10:31:19 -0600, "George Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > I think that you will find that the elders of the church are not > prophesied > to save the constitution, but rather the "principles" of the > constitution. > I suggest that means that after the United States has gone down in flames > the only people that will still be free with the constitutional > principles > intact will be the people of Zion. > > You might want to read or review Lunds book - "The Coming of the Lord." > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:32 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses > > > > Doesn't prophesy say that the Elders will save it? But prophesy also says > > that the Elders will be killed so there will be a 7 to 1 ratio of the > > righteous, women to men. > > > > What's a mother (or father for that matter) to do? > > > > Jon > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Steven Montgomery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:06 PM > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses > > > > > > > At 08:19 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: > > > >It makes me wonder, can it really be long before the Elders of the > Church > > > >have to save the constitution? > > > > > > > >Scott > > > > > > . . . if it can be saved at all. > > > -- Scott McGee [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
George, I don't necessarily see it that way, but I certainly consider that as one of the likely possibilities. I also see saving the US as a possibility, and would like to hope that is what happens. My own personal guess would tend to be more like what you suggest or perhaps saving some small portion of the US as a constitutionally run entity while the majority of the US lapses into something less desirable and less livable. Scott On Wed, 28 May 2003 10:31:19 -0600, "George Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > I think that you will find that the elders of the church are not > prophesied > to save the constitution, but rather the "principles" of the > constitution. > I suggest that means that after the United States has gone down in flames > the only people that will still be free with the constitutional > principles > intact will be the people of Zion. > > You might want to read or review Lunds book - "The Coming of the Lord." > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:32 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses > > > > Doesn't prophesy say that the Elders will save it? But prophesy also says > > that the Elders will be killed so there will be a 7 to 1 ratio of the > > righteous, women to men. > > > > What's a mother (or father for that matter) to do? > > > > Jon > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Steven Montgomery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:06 PM > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses > > > > > > > At 08:19 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: > > > >It makes me wonder, can it really be long before the Elders of the > Church > > > >have to save the constitution? > > > > > > > >Scott > > > > > > . . . if it can be saved at all. > > > -- Scott McGee [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Scott McGee [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
At 10:37 AM 5/28/2003, you wrote: Steven - even in Knowlton's quote it does not say the nation would be saved, only that the constitution will be borne away from destruction. This may very well be separate from the entity known as the United States. It is unlikely, for example, that the city of Zion in the Mississippi valley will be established without some prior upheaval in the nation - simply based on the eventual size of the "city." I have not heard from you on our other topic for some time - are we through with that? George Correct. It does not say the "nation would be saved." I believe I made it clear that the "saving" references were strictly to those in reference to the United States Constitution--or at least the principles contained therein. Regarding "our other topic." I thought I had responded and was waiting for a further response back from you. But, I've been so busy the last few weeks that I might have missed it. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] The overall performance of the college graduates in the Convention of 1787 speaks forcefully for the proposition that Latin, rhetoric, philosophy, and mathematics can be a healthy fare for political heroes.Clinton Rossiter // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
Steven - even in Knowlton's quote it does not say the nation would be saved, only that the constitution will be borne away from destruction. This may very well be separate from the entity known as the United States. It is unlikely, for example, that the city of Zion in the Mississippi valley will be established without some prior upheaval in the nation - simply based on the eventual size of the "city." I have not heard from you on our other topic for some time - are we through with that? George - Original Message - From: "Steven Montgomery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses > At 09:32 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: > >Doesn't prophesy say that the Elders will save it? > > > >Jon > > There are different versions and remembrances of Joseph Smith's statement > (Given on July 19th 1840). Orson Hyde, in recalling Joseph Smith's words, > put it this way: > > "I believe he said something like this--that the time would come when the > Constitution and the country would be in danger of overthrow; and said he: > 'If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this > Church.' I believe this is about the language, an nearly as I can recollect > it." (See JD 6: 152) > > If Hyde's version is correct then this makes the prophecy conditional. > However, to be fair, President Ezra Taft Benson liked the version recorded > by Martha Jane Knowleton, which is more explicit that the Constitution will > be saved. Knowleton's version is this: > > "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and > tumbling to the ground; and when the Constitution is upon the brink of > ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean; and > they shall bear the constitution away from the very verge of destruction. " > > I say, how can the Constitution be saved by the Elders of Israel when many > of them don't even know its basic precepts? For instance, how many "Elders" > know the reason the Founders setup the Electoral College the way they did? > Or the reason that originally, before the 17th amendment, that Senators > were elected by State legislatures? > > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > It is no accident, then, that so many who gathered at Philadelphia to > declare independence and a decade later to draft a constitution were men > who had apprenticed themselves to Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, > and Cicero, and who could debate at length on the various constitutional > forms of the classical world before they chose one for the new American > nation. We owe our very existence as a people in great part to classical > learning.T. L. Simmons > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
I think that you will find that the elders of the church are not prophesied to save the constitution, but rather the "principles" of the constitution. I suggest that means that after the United States has gone down in flames the only people that will still be free with the constitutional principles intact will be the people of Zion. You might want to read or review Lunds book - "The Coming of the Lord." George - Original Message - From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses > Doesn't prophesy say that the Elders will save it? But prophesy also says > that the Elders will be killed so there will be a 7 to 1 ratio of the > righteous, women to men. > > What's a mother (or father for that matter) to do? > > Jon > > - Original Message - > From: "Steven Montgomery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:06 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses > > > > At 08:19 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: > > >It makes me wonder, can it really be long before the Elders of the Church > > >have to save the constitution? > > > > > >Scott > > > > . . . if it can be saved at all. > > > > > > > > -- > > Steven Montgomery > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > " . . . today the Christian Constitutionalist weeps as he walks about his > > country. He sees the spiritual and political faith of his fathers > > betrayed, by wolves in sheep's garments. He sees the forces of evil > > increasing in strength and momentum under the leadership of Satan, the > > archenemy of freedom. ---Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1967. > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > / > > > > > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
At 08:54 AM 5/28/2003, you wrote: Stacy Smith: I have most of the writings of Joseph Smith. I'm going to hunt up what was said. ___ I think someone already posted the two best quotes I have ever heard on the subject. The problem, as I see it, is that if the elders are going to save the constitution as it hangs by a thread (or however it was really put), the correlation committee is going to have to put a lesson in the priesthood manual about the constitution if very many of them are going to know what it is we are even talking about. Larry Jackson A good primer might be President Ezra Taft Benson's talk entitled, "The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner," which can be read here: http://www.geocities.com/graymada/tcahb.html -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] ". . . in the future the opposition from Satan will be both more subtle and more open. While in some ways it may be more blatant, it will be masked with greater sophistication and cunning. We will need greater spirituality to perceive all the forms of evil and greater strength to resist it." (President James E. Faust, CR, April 2003) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
Stacy Smith: I have most of the writings of Joseph Smith. I'm going to hunt up what was said. ___ I think someone already posted the two best quotes I have ever heard on the subject. The problem, as I see it, is that if the elders are going to save the constitution as it hangs by a thread (or however it was really put), the correlation committee is going to have to put a lesson in the priesthood manual about the constitution if very many of them are going to know what it is we are even talking about. Larry Jackson The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
Well, I'd like more verification that this is actually taking place. I understand that "censored e-mails" have just been a joke. I'd like to have verification that the government is keeping tabs on what I am doing at the Braille Institute, for example, or what I'm doing in my doctor's office. Or how about what books I download off the NLS web braille site? I'd like verification of what is happening. Stacy. At 02:35 PM 05/27/2003 -0500, you wrote: Okay Zionisti: For a long time, I have perused and mused as I read John Redelfs' thoughts on conspiricy theories. You see, I grew up with a dad who spoke very much the way John does, and so, as progeny often will, I intentionally went opposite in my thinking from where my dad was. See, I had this altruistic view of our government, that they wouldn't intentionally do things that would harm us. My dad must have read one too many books etc. etc. Now-- ever since 9/11 I feel that our government has been doing its darndest to, not gently erode the constitution, but to take massive chunks of our freedoms under the thinly guised pretense of protecting us. This has bothered me for some time, and I get uneasy everytime I hear people say "I understand why they need to search my body for hidden weapons. . .blah blah blah [or should I say baaa baaa baaa]." Tonight, though, came the straw. Under the provisions of the Patriot Act (sounds so. . .patriotic!) the feds can, at will, check out what you are reading and checking out at your library!! This includes not only books, but ANYTHING you've read on the Internet. Of course, "they" say that it is only used for suspected terrorists etc., but come on!! The news also reported that they can find out what you've been buying at the book stores as well--under the provisions of the Patriot Act. Our founding fathers must be having fits as they watch the masses accept this with nothing more than a shrug of the shoulders and a quick "Oh well." Does anyone else see this or feel the same way? Or do I need to get a prescription for Prozac? your cynical sis in Mishawaka val .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 03/10/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
Before our current attacks from terrorists I wasn't worried about any freedoms being jeopardized. Now with the threat of Al Queda and other groups getting to us and the likelihood that more attacks like 9/11 I think we can look forward to such. Stacy. At 09:06 PM 05/27/2003 -0600, you wrote: At 08:19 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: It makes me wonder, can it really be long before the Elders of the Church have to save the constitution? Scott . . . if it can be saved at all. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] " . . . today the Christian Constitutionalist weeps as he walks about his country. He sees the spiritual and political faith of his fathers betrayed, by wolves in sheep's garments. He sees the forces of evil increasing in strength and momentum under the leadership of Satan, the archenemy of freedom. ---Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1967. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 03/10/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
I have most of the writings of Joseph Smith. I'm going to hunt up what was said. Stacy. At 12:42 AM 05/28/2003 -0700, you wrote: This is probably one of the most poorly reported prophecies of Joseph Smith. We need to remember that the Prophet gave this statement before the days of any reasonably accurate recording device, including shorthand. As a result, the basic facts may vary widely. The basis of the prophecy, however, is pretty plain. We are in for very hard times, and our basic liberties will be under increasingly greater attack. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
This is probably one of the most poorly reported prophecies of Joseph Smith. We need to remember that the Prophet gave this statement before the days of any reasonably accurate recording device, including shorthand. As a result, the basic facts may vary widely. The basis of the prophecy, however, is pretty plain. We are in for very hard times, and our basic liberties will be under increasingly greater attack. Harold Stuart On Tuesday, May 27, 2003, at 08:57 PM, Steven Montgomery wrote: At 09:32 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: Doesn't prophesy say that the Elders will save it? Jon There are different versions and remembrances of Joseph Smith's statement (Given on July 19th 1840). Orson Hyde, in recalling Joseph Smith's words, put it this way: "I believe he said something like this--that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of overthrow; and said he: 'If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church.' I believe this is about the language, an nearly as I can recollect it." (See JD 6: 152) If Hyde's version is correct then this makes the prophecy conditional. However, to be fair, President Ezra Taft Benson liked the version recorded by Martha Jane Knowleton, which is more explicit that the Constitution will be saved. Knowleton's version is this: "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground; and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean; and they shall bear the constitution away from the very verge of destruction. " I say, how can the Constitution be saved by the Elders of Israel when many of them don't even know its basic precepts? For instance, how many "Elders" know the reason the Founders setup the Electoral College the way they did? Or the reason that originally, before the 17th amendment, that Senators were elected by State legislatures? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is no accident, then, that so many who gathered at Philadelphia to declare independence and a decade later to draft a constitution were men who had apprenticed themselves to Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, and Cicero, and who could debate at length on the various constitutional forms of the classical world before they chose one for the new American nation. We owe our very existence as a people in great part to classical learning.T. L. Simmons // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
At 09:32 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: Doesn't prophesy say that the Elders will save it? Jon There are different versions and remembrances of Joseph Smith's statement (Given on July 19th 1840). Orson Hyde, in recalling Joseph Smith's words, put it this way: "I believe he said something like this--that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of overthrow; and said he: 'If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church.' I believe this is about the language, an nearly as I can recollect it." (See JD 6: 152) If Hyde's version is correct then this makes the prophecy conditional. However, to be fair, President Ezra Taft Benson liked the version recorded by Martha Jane Knowleton, which is more explicit that the Constitution will be saved. Knowleton's version is this: "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground; and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean; and they shall bear the constitution away from the very verge of destruction. " I say, how can the Constitution be saved by the Elders of Israel when many of them don't even know its basic precepts? For instance, how many "Elders" know the reason the Founders setup the Electoral College the way they did? Or the reason that originally, before the 17th amendment, that Senators were elected by State legislatures? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is no accident, then, that so many who gathered at Philadelphia to declare independence and a decade later to draft a constitution were men who had apprenticed themselves to Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, and Cicero, and who could debate at length on the various constitutional forms of the classical world before they chose one for the new American nation. We owe our very existence as a people in great part to classical learning.T. L. Simmons // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
Doesn't prophesy say that the Elders will save it? But prophesy also says that the Elders will be killed so there will be a 7 to 1 ratio of the righteous, women to men. What's a mother (or father for that matter) to do? Jon - Original Message - From: "Steven Montgomery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses > At 08:19 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: > >It makes me wonder, can it really be long before the Elders of the Church > >have to save the constitution? > > > >Scott > > . . . if it can be saved at all. > > > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > " . . . today the Christian Constitutionalist weeps as he walks about his > country. He sees the spiritual and political faith of his fathers > betrayed, by wolves in sheep's garments. He sees the forces of evil > increasing in strength and momentum under the leadership of Satan, the > archenemy of freedom. ---Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1967. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
At 08:19 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: It makes me wonder, can it really be long before the Elders of the Church have to save the constitution? Scott . . . if it can be saved at all. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] " . . . today the Christian Constitutionalist weeps as he walks about his country. He sees the spiritual and political faith of his fathers betrayed, by wolves in sheep's garments. He sees the forces of evil increasing in strength and momentum under the leadership of Satan, the archenemy of freedom. ---Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1967. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
I, on the other hand, while watching the situation very carefully, have not yet asked for a Prozac prescription. While I do not trust the government, neither do I assume evil intent. I fear the activism of the judicial branch far more than I fear the effects of the Patriot Act (interesting name, that, eh?). I feel that many are over-reacting before they need to. Repeated outcries against everything causes people to reject the views of Libertarian Conservatives (I like that phrase!) when they truly have something to say. The Act is a Fact. I encourage all to be on their guard, but prognosticating the beginning of the end seems a bit over the top. Is this any worse than having an IRS that for decades has been able to confiscate private property without due process, or any of a number of other much worse travesties? Jon - Original Message - From: "Scott McGee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses Yes, Val, some of the rest of us _DO_ feel that way. Most of us are less vocal than John, but, at least on this issue, I am very concerned. I don't know what I can do about it, but I am very alarmed at the way the US citizenry has just rolled over and given the Feds anything they want on this issue. Truthfully, I see the current set of changes as the pivotal ones that will eventually take us from a free society to one that is obviously not free. I think history will look back on this time as when the country turned the corner by turning its back on freedom. It makes me wonder, can it really be long before the Elders of the Church have to save the constitution? Scott Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote: > Okay Zionisti: > > For a long time, I have perused and mused as I read John Redelfs' > thoughts on conspiricy theories. You see, I grew up with a dad who spoke > very much the way John does, and so, as progeny often will, I > intentionally went opposite in my thinking from where my dad was. > > See, I had this altruistic view of our government, that they wouldn't > intentionally do things that would harm us. My dad must have read one > too many books etc. etc. > > Now-- ever since 9/11 I feel that our government has been doing its > darndest to, not gently erode the constitution, but to take massive > chunks of our freedoms under the thinly guised pretense of protecting us. > This has bothered me for some time, and I get uneasy everytime I hear > people say "I understand why they need to search my body for hidden > weapons. . .blah blah blah [or should I say baaa baaa baaa]." > > Tonight, though, came the straw. Under the provisions of the Patriot Act > (sounds so. . .patriotic!) the feds can, at will, check out what you are > reading and checking out at your library!! This includes not only books, > but ANYTHING you've read on the Internet. Of course, "they" say that it > is only used for suspected terrorists etc., but come on!! The news also > reported that they can find out what you've been buying at the book > stores as well--under the provisions of the Patriot Act. > > Our founding fathers must be having fits as they watch the masses accept > this with nothing more than a shrug of the shoulders and a quick "Oh > well." > > Does anyone else see this or feel the same way? Or do I need to get a > prescription for Prozac? > > your cynical sis in Mishawaka > val > > > .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. > «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > -- I'd rather be riding! - Scott McGee ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) web site: http://themcgees.org/scott/ // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
Yes, Val, some of the rest of us _DO_ feel that way. Most of us are less vocal than John, but, at least on this issue, I am very concerned. I don't know what I can do about it, but I am very alarmed at the way the US citizenry has just rolled over and given the Feds anything they want on this issue. Truthfully, I see the current set of changes as the pivotal ones that will eventually take us from a free society to one that is obviously not free. I think history will look back on this time as when the country turned the corner by turning its back on freedom. It makes me wonder, can it really be long before the Elders of the Church have to save the constitution? Scott Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote: Okay Zionisti: For a long time, I have perused and mused as I read John Redelfs' thoughts on conspiricy theories. You see, I grew up with a dad who spoke very much the way John does, and so, as progeny often will, I intentionally went opposite in my thinking from where my dad was. See, I had this altruistic view of our government, that they wouldn't intentionally do things that would harm us. My dad must have read one too many books etc. etc. Now-- ever since 9/11 I feel that our government has been doing its darndest to, not gently erode the constitution, but to take massive chunks of our freedoms under the thinly guised pretense of protecting us. This has bothered me for some time, and I get uneasy everytime I hear people say "I understand why they need to search my body for hidden weapons. . .blah blah blah [or should I say baaa baaa baaa]." Tonight, though, came the straw. Under the provisions of the Patriot Act (sounds so. . .patriotic!) the feds can, at will, check out what you are reading and checking out at your library!! This includes not only books, but ANYTHING you've read on the Internet. Of course, "they" say that it is only used for suspected terrorists etc., but come on!! The news also reported that they can find out what you've been buying at the book stores as well--under the provisions of the Patriot Act. Our founding fathers must be having fits as they watch the masses accept this with nothing more than a shrug of the shoulders and a quick "Oh well." Does anyone else see this or feel the same way? Or do I need to get a prescription for Prozac? your cynical sis in Mishawaka val .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- I'd rather be riding! - Scott McGee ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) web site: http://themcgees.org/scott/ // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
