Re: [ZION] Freedom versus capitalism
Perhaps I should add a little to this. The point of capitalism is to acquire the greatest wealth. Primary Capitalism allows one to gather the greatest wealth. Remember that temporal items are considered secondary property. Money is a representation of secondary property and thus should only be an indicator of how well one has handled primary property. Wealth is gained as the result of profit, which I define to be any moral increase in happiness resulting from (necessarily moral) actions of an individual. A moral action is one that does not violate the property (primordial [life], primary or secondary) of another. Hopefully, this will help one understand the prior post. And by the way, I spent 1 1/2 years studying these concepts prior to gaining a true stomach understanding of them, what mechanisms would be required to make the system complete, and how they could be partially applied in this society. It is folly of me to try to convince anyone that this is a valid approach with a couple of posts. Thus that is not my intent. I post these comments solely to pique the curiosity of some to enter into further discussions on some points. Jon - Original Message - From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 11:17 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Freedom versus capitalism > The main point of Primary Capitalism, or what I believe is true capitalism, > is that money is a secondary issue. Integrity, endurance, commitment, > gratitude, etc. are the prime components of capitalism. Charity that does > not rob a person of his self-confidence just to benefit oneself is a valid > component of that capitalism. True charity is an investment in the society > that you live in, one that yields tremendous returns. > > I honestly do not think that the United order was properly set up, although > on my own I don't think that I could have done any better. But I do believe > now that one reason it failed was that there was an attempt to make everyone > equal when they were not. I do not believe that the UO was truly in tune > with the gospel, because in the gospel, one is rewarded for his efforts; > everyone does not receive the same thing. The parable of the talents is > right in line with Primary Capitalism, as is the parable of the ten virgins. > A true capitalist emulates Christ by expecting others to do their best, > teaching them to do so, and then making up the temporal difference for those > who try this but fall short. > > A primary capitalist pays what is due to all, especially to those whose > ideas helped him along the way. He pays his debt of gratitude to all. > Tithing is an excellent PC action. > > That's all for now. > > Jon > > - Original Message - > From: "Gary Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 6:27 PM > Subject: [ZION] Freedom versus capitalism > > > > Would you then say that there is no true freedom in the United > > Order/consecration? I think a capitalist society is okay, but it is too > > often the case that financial markets replace true freedom, which begins > > not with the pocket book, but with a respect for life and ideas. > > > > K'aya K'ama, > > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www > > .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's ree." - > > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > > > Jon: > > There is much more to this than I have given in this short quip. There > > are > > volumes written on the topic. But suffice it to say that without true > > capitalism, it is impossible to have freedom. > > > > Of course, you may have a different definition of freedom. But be > > careful, > > if you do, it had better fit into a larger scheme of things that > > generates > > freedom for all (otherwise called "liberty"). > > > > > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > / > > > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > ///
Re: [ZION] Freedom versus capitalism
The main point of Primary Capitalism, or what I believe is true capitalism, is that money is a secondary issue. Integrity, endurance, commitment, gratitude, etc. are the prime components of capitalism. Charity that does not rob a person of his self-confidence just to benefit oneself is a valid component of that capitalism. True charity is an investment in the society that you live in, one that yields tremendous returns. I honestly do not think that the United order was properly set up, although on my own I don't think that I could have done any better. But I do believe now that one reason it failed was that there was an attempt to make everyone equal when they were not. I do not believe that the UO was truly in tune with the gospel, because in the gospel, one is rewarded for his efforts; everyone does not receive the same thing. The parable of the talents is right in line with Primary Capitalism, as is the parable of the ten virgins. A true capitalist emulates Christ by expecting others to do their best, teaching them to do so, and then making up the temporal difference for those who try this but fall short. A primary capitalist pays what is due to all, especially to those whose ideas helped him along the way. He pays his debt of gratitude to all. Tithing is an excellent PC action. That's all for now. Jon - Original Message - From: "Gary Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 6:27 PM Subject: [ZION] Freedom versus capitalism > Would you then say that there is no true freedom in the United > Order/consecration? I think a capitalist society is okay, but it is too > often the case that financial markets replace true freedom, which begins > not with the pocket book, but with a respect for life and ideas. > > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www > .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > Jon: > There is much more to this than I have given in this short quip. There > are > volumes written on the topic. But suffice it to say that without true > capitalism, it is impossible to have freedom. > > Of course, you may have a different definition of freedom. But be > careful, > if you do, it had better fit into a larger scheme of things that > generates > freedom for all (otherwise called "liberty"). > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Freedom versus capitalism
I think we could very easily have total unrestricted capitalism in this country if certain people have their way. Stacy. At 10:50 PM 12/09/2002 -0600, you wrote: I found this old article on my hard drive by Charlie Reese. It reminded me of a very important fact: I can be a believer in freedom without believing in an unrestricted capitalist system, and that too many people equate them. In reality, I look forward to Zion, where there will be great freedom to govern oneself, but there will be restricted capitalism. It isn't communism, though. We won't force anyone to do it, they will just simply be asked to leave... K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe By Charley Reese of The Sentinel Staff Published in The Orlando Sentinel on July 22, 1999. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce has sent a delegation to Cuba to discuss free enterprise. Aside from the fact that the group won't find much, the trip offers a good occasion to point out that a market economy and political freedom are not the same thing. Too many Americans seem to think that a country that allows a free-market economy to operate is free. Not so. A free country is defined by the political rights of its citizens not the form of its economy. Other Americans seem to think that a market economy will inevitably produce political freedom. Not so again. Many dictatorships have operated with a market economy, the dictator simply skimming some of the profits. There was free enterprise in Cuba under the dictator Fulgencio Batista but not political freedom. Now, under Castro, there is neither. Keep in mind that one of the purest examples of free enterprise is criminal gangs involved in such businesses as illicit drugs. They operate entirely without government supervision and make enormous profits. Does that make them moral? Political rights include the right to free speech, to assemble and to petition the government, to change the government, to publish freely, to live under a system of laws enacted by elective representatives as binding on the ruler as on the ruled. None of these is present in Cuba or in China, even though both countries have allowed foreign investments and very much want to increase their economic trade with other countries. Frankly, it should not matter to Americans what kind of an economy another country has. We should be advocates of political freedom, not capitalism. Virtually all of our European allies now have socialist governments. Japan's form of capitalism is certainly not the same as ours. What difference does it make to us if the foreign products we buy are made in a capitalist plant, a co-op or a government plant? None. Nor does the form the economy takes have any effect on government-to-government relationships. The Chinese government now allows some free-market activity within its borders, but that doesn't mean that the government likes us. When American-based corporations look for foreign-investment opportunities, they are looking for either cheap labor to build something they will export back to the United States or a way to get a wedge into a foreign market. Unless you own a lot of stock in the corporation, there is no benefit to the average American. The only effect on us is that we may lose our jobs if it's our plant that's shut down and moved overseas. Robert Reich, former secretary of Labor, pointed out long ago that about half of what the ignoratti refer to as trade is really nothing more than intercorporate transfers. Pappy used to say, "Never mix business with friendship or pleasure." What he was saying is good advice for citizens to keep in mind. The purpose of business is to make a profit not to be patriotic, not to advance human rights, not to do what is right for the country. Because big money heavily influences both political parties and owns most of the communications media, often what is good for business is presented as good for the country. Don't believe it. Don't confuse business with politics, benevolence, humanitarianism or, for that matter, even common decency. One of the Founding Fathers remarked that the only country a merchant knows is the spot he stands on in front of his money drawer. The founders of this country did not invent government to be the handmaiden of business. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 /
Re: [ZION] Freedom versus capitalism
Unfortunately, the article you gave us talked about the evils of RESTRICTED CAPITALISM, not free markets. I mean, how can a market which includes a dictator who manipulates the market be called a "free market?" My definition of capitalism/free markets does not include using the government to control the market, or to gain unfair advantage. It does not include stealing ideas from others, nor forming coercive monopolies. Rather, my definition of capitalism comes from through a man named Andrew J. Galambos, and is called "primary capitalism." This form requires complete freedom for every individual, which requires that each individual have 100% control over his own property. Property is defined as one's life and all non-procreative derivatives thereof. What we have now in the US AJG called "partial secondary capitalism," where "secondary" refers to secondary property, which in short is tangible (temporal) items. Again, in short, primary property is ideas. Primary capitalism means that no one steals or defrauds you. A business which acts without integrity is driven out of business that day unless restitution is immediately made. The lowliest janitor who keeps all of his commitments has a higher credit rating than a billionaire who breaks his commitments. There is much more to this than I have given in this short quip. There are volumes written on the topic. But suffice it to say that without true capitalism, it is impossible to have freedom. Of course, you may have a different definition of freedom. But be careful, if you do, it had better fit into a larger scheme of things that generates freedom for all (otherwise called "liberty"). Jon Gary Smith wrote: > I found this old article on my hard drive by Charlie Reese. It reminded > me of a very important fact: I can be a believer in freedom without > believing in an unrestricted capitalist system, and that too many people > equate them. In reality, I look forward to Zion, where there will be > great freedom to govern oneself, but there will be restricted capitalism. > It isn't communism, though. We won't force anyone to do it, they will > just simply be asked to leave... // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
