Re: [Zope] Costs of implementation
At 8:32 AM +0200 6/13/2000, D Swart wrote: I am trying to motivate the use of Zope / Zcommerce, and to do this need some timing ideas - Does anyone have thoughts on how long (man hours per expertise) it took them to go from no Zope to (Zope + Steve Spickelmire and Co's EMarket) and to a successful transaction? From 0 to Zope in under 6.2 seconds! :) If you are totally new (no Zope in your blood) here is what I would expect. This does take into account that you know "something" about programming and variables and really good HTML as well as some server stuff (how to set up, IP addresses, shell scripts). I have put what it would take a Zopista in parenthesis (not me though, I only play one on the web). 1 day (1 hour) - Install Zope 1 day (done) - Download, print, read all guides and "howtos" 5 Days (2 days) - To get a basic site up and running. Log in, look and feel, tested, management, feel the power of Zope 1 day (2 hours) - Set up database backend and connect 5 days (2 days) - Build catalog system, Z SQL Methods, etc 2 days (2 days) - testing, testing, testing This is very rough but should be around the amount of time. This does mean full "developing days" which are about 10-14 hours. I don't know about transactions so you might want to pad it a bit. I will say though, that once you get into developing with Zope you realize just how fast you can develop new products with it. It is an amazing working environment. J ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: [ZCommerce] Re: [Zope] Costs of implementation
+[ J. Atwood ]- | | This is very rough but should be around the amount of time. This does | mean full "developing days" which are about 10-14 hours. I don't know Remind me to get paid by the hour if I ever do any work for you :-) -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068|[EMAIL PROTECTED]| ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Costs of implementation
Well, if you added it all up I was talking about 96 hours of development (8 days x 12 hours) which is a lot to bring up a site in Zope. I agree it does depend on the person but I have had graphics people once given a 10 minute intro to Zope not only start playing around with DTML but doing quick if/then statements. OO helps, and Python can help but some of things are not exactly the same as Python and TOO much Python can hurt. I wise man once said.. "There are only three timelines for programmers: 1) Something that can be done in 20 minutes 2) Something that can be done in a day 3) Something that can be done in a year" J From: Dan Rusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:36:16 -0500 To: "J. Atwood" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: D Swart [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zope] Costs of implementation I think that the timeline J provided is unrealistically optimistic. The amount of time it will take someone to go from 0 to Zope varies wildly. We have had developers come in and in a matter of a few days they are very productive. Others take much longer. Several things affect this. Someone to show you the ropes being primary. Previous knowledge, especially in OOP and in python or pythonish language, is also crucial. So how long depends on you. If you don't have someone who knows Zope and python expect to struggle up the near vertical learning curve of Zope. After helping to train several people on Zope I would recommend not reading any Zope documentation until after you understand python. In other words, learn the basics of python first. Know what a list, dictionary and tuple are and their syntax and operations and many of the mysteries of Zope will be cleared up (i.e. when do you need tics instead of quotes etc.). After garnishing a working knowledge (you don't need to be a Zen master of python) of python ,then read the Zope documentation and start working in Zope. Just my experience working with newbies. Dan "J. Atwood" wrote: At 8:32 AM +0200 6/13/2000, D Swart wrote: I am trying to motivate the use of Zope / Zcommerce, and to do this need some timing ideas - Does anyone have thoughts on how long (man hours per expertise) it took them to go from no Zope to (Zope + Steve Spickelmire and Co's EMarket) and to a successful transaction? From 0 to Zope in under 6.2 seconds! :) If you are totally new (no Zope in your blood) here is what I would expect. This does take into account that you know "something" about programming and variables and really good HTML as well as some server stuff (how to set up, IP addresses, shell scripts). I have put what it would take a Zopista in parenthesis (not me though, I only play one on the web). 1 day (1 hour) - Install Zope 1 day (done) - Download, print, read all guides and "howtos" 5 Days (2 days) - To get a basic site up and running. Log in, look and feel, tested, management, feel the power of Zope 1 day (2 hours) - Set up database backend and connect 5 days (2 days) - Build catalog system, Z SQL Methods, etc 2 days (2 days) - testing, testing, testing This is very rough but should be around the amount of time. This does mean full "developing days" which are about 10-14 hours. I don't know about transactions so you might want to pad it a bit. I will say though, that once you get into developing with Zope you realize just how fast you can develop new products with it. It is an amazing working environment. J ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Costs of implementation
Well, I'd say that much of it relies on the kind of project you're doing, too. Sure, if all your DTML is doing is simple if/then statements, maybe a loop or two, it'll only take a few minutes to get used to the management interface itself. However, if you've got some seriously complicated things going on, it will be a lot more difficult. We've got an application framework being developed that relies very heavily on some extraordinarily tricky acquisition to get pages to render correctly. Everything is determined by the path you take to actually get to the page you want to look at, so a difference of one directory being present in the acquisition path can *drastically* alter how a page is displayed and functions (just adding the "admin" folder, for instance). Everything's automatically rendered. You basically never have to touch HTML again, because there's all these Widgets all over the place doing everything for you. Expecting someone to just jump into that kind of thing after becoming comfortable with the management interface would be insane. (Once you're into the Zen of the thing, though, it's wonderful!) If you're just putting together some relatively simple webapps, your timeline's probably all right. However, if you want a fully-functional ZCommerce site up, running, *secure,* and easily expandable, I'd say there's a lot more you've got to get through. :) Just my opinion, though. Perhaps I'm just slow. :) Happy Zoping! -CJ "J. Atwood" wrote: Well, if you added it all up I was talking about 96 hours of development (8 days x 12 hours) which is a lot to bring up a site in Zope. I agree it does depend on the person but I have had graphics people once given a 10 minute intro to Zope not only start playing around with DTML but doing quick if/then statements. OO helps, and Python can help but some of things are not exactly the same as Python and TOO much Python can hurt. I wise man once said.. "There are only three timelines for programmers: 1) Something that can be done in 20 minutes 2) Something that can be done in a day 3) Something that can be done in a year" J From: Dan Rusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:36:16 -0500 To: "J. Atwood" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: D Swart [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zope] Costs of implementation I think that the timeline J provided is unrealistically optimistic. The amount of time it will take someone to go from 0 to Zope varies wildly. We have had developers come in and in a matter of a few days they are very productive. Others take much longer. Several things affect this. Someone to show you the ropes being primary. Previous knowledge, especially in OOP and in python or pythonish language, is also crucial. So how long depends on you. If you don't have someone who knows Zope and python expect to struggle up the near vertical learning curve of Zope. After helping to train several people on Zope I would recommend not reading any Zope documentation until after you understand python. In other words, learn the basics of python first. Know what a list, dictionary and tuple are and their syntax and operations and many of the mysteries of Zope will be cleared up (i.e. when do you need tics instead of quotes etc.). After garnishing a working knowledge (you don't need to be a Zen master of python) of python ,then read the Zope documentation and start working in Zope. Just my experience working with newbies. Dan "J. Atwood" wrote: At 8:32 AM +0200 6/13/2000, D Swart wrote: I am trying to motivate the use of Zope / Zcommerce, and to do this need some timing ideas - Does anyone have thoughts on how long (man hours per expertise) it took them to go from no Zope to (Zope + Steve Spickelmire and Co's EMarket) and to a successful transaction? From 0 to Zope in under 6.2 seconds! :) If you are totally new (no Zope in your blood) here is what I would expect. This does take into account that you know "something" about programming and variables and really good HTML as well as some server stuff (how to set up, IP addresses, shell scripts). I have put what it would take a Zopista in parenthesis (not me though, I only play one on the web). 1 day (1 hour) - Install Zope 1 day (done) - Download, print, read all guides and "howtos" 5 Days (2 days) - To get a basic site up and running. Log in, look and feel, tested, management, feel the power of Zope 1 day (2 hours) - Set up database backend and connect 5 days (2 days) - Build catalog system, Z SQL Methods, etc 2 days (2 days) - testing, testing, testing This is very rough but should be around the amount of time. This does mean full "developing days" which are about 10-14 hours. I don't know about transactions so you might want to pad it a bit. I will say though,
Re: [Zope] Costs of implementation
I am trying to motivate the use of Zope / Zcommerce, and to do this need some timing ideas - Does anyone have thoughts on how long (man hours per expertise) it took them to go from no Zope to (Zope + Steve Spickelmire and Co's EMarket) and to a successful transaction? Hopefully this will be of general interest for anyone doing a business case or planning, so if you have any thoughts on "we expected x by experienced y" it should make interesting reading. Zope has a sigmoidal[0] (is that the word?) learning curve. Out of the box it installs *very* nicely on unixen, and you can clickety-clickety around and create folders [1], upload files, and set up a static web site pretty easily. Then you want to connect up a database. My experience is limited to PostgreSQL, but the sigmoidal shape repeated itself. The database adapter dropped in without a hitch, and simple queries worked great. I implemented a reasonable database-backed problem tracking system for our company last summer in about 2 weeks of fiddling around and 2 solid weeks of implementation (my sql/web skills are ok, my python knowledge is um, a work in process). And it has been operating flawlessly for over a year. But then comes the steep part. Anytime you mix several languages inside themselves, things are hard. Productive as hell if you get it write, but hard. With Zope you've got to wrangle HTML, DTML, Python (at least for expressions) and SQL if you're connected to a database. A misplaced quote, comma, or bracket can throw you off for a long time. Ok, we've got the source, but debugging Zope stack dumps can be a pain. But after a while it gets better. I *think* I'm starting to at least see the shallow part of the learning curve at the top, where you can do things like implement a ZClass container that acts like a Dynamic HTML layer in an afternoon. Which I did, but only after 3 very bad false starts. The base Zope documentation needs some work. The HOWTOS and TIPS have saved the day many, many times. But back to the business case. My feeling is that even with the steep bits of the learning curve, Zope is a big win for implementing services. Zope wins because if you do a good job getting things working, you have an incredibly flex able system for dealing with the inevitable never ending stream of change requests. And thats where the payoff is. At list I *hope* so :) -- cary [0] S-shaped. like this ( _/-). shallow/steep/shallow. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
