Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
Simon Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Or, if someone wants to distribute something which includes zope and > one or more GPL products. I mean, eg, you want to distribute your end-user package Easy Portal Creator 2000, based on zope/ptk/squishdot/zwiki. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
> > On Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:48:20 +0100 (MET), [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Juan > David Ibáñez Palomar) wrote: > > > it's illegal to distribute GPL code together > >with [ZPL] code > > I dont see this as an issue for Zope (taken as a whole). There is no > problem with other developers releasing GPL products for Zope, as long > as they do not create a combined distribution of Zope+TheirProduct. > Separate rpms is enough. > it's important only if you want your GPL Zope products to be redistributed by others, for example by Debian. regards, jdavid ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Jimmie Houchin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The GPL would protect DC from predatory competitors. It would also allow > > for Zope's adoption in certain environments. I also believe some people > > And prevent it in others. > > > would relicense their products to the GPL if it were Zope's native > > license. > > While other products would suddently become license-incompatible. > I'm not going to talk now about the Zope license, as Paul requested; by the way, thanks Paul for your message, it has been hopefully. Instead I'll show my rationale to decide with which license I release my software. As Jimmie I also like copyleft licenses because they protect my work. But the GPL is not the only copyleft license, the LGPL is too, are there more copyleft licenses? The GPL-incompatibility issue is a GPL issue, one way to avoid it is not to use it. But the GPL is a widely used license, so it's important for me not to release software with a GPL-incompatible license. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't want to write my own license nor modify an existing one. For now I'll stay with the LGPL beacuse it's copyleft and doesn't has the incompatibility problems of the GPL. There're other issues like dual-licensing or the possibly outdated concept of library that the LGPL uses, but I wanted to keep this message as short and clear as possible to show the fundamental issues that are important for me: GPL-Compatibility and copyleft. regards, jdavid ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
On Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:48:20 +0100 (MET), [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Juan David Ibáñez Palomar) wrote: > it's illegal to distribute GPL code together >with [ZPL] code I dont see this as an issue for Zope (taken as a whole). There is no problem with other developers releasing GPL products for Zope, as long as they do not create a combined distribution of Zope+TheirProduct. Separate rpms is enough. I agree that GPL-compatability would be better for some of Zope's components which are useful outside of Zope (ZPublisher, ZODB, ZEO, etc) On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:09:40 -0600, Jimmie Houchin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >The GPL would protect DC from predatory competitors. It would also allow >for Zope's adoption in certain environments. I also believe some people >would relicense their products to the GPL if it were Zope's native >license. If a future version of Zope was released under GPL, I (and I guess many others) would *need* to create a fork from the last non-GPL version. This is to nobodys benefit. Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jimmie Houchin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The GPL would protect DC from predatory competitors. It would also allow > for Zope's adoption in certain environments. I also believe some people And prevent it in others. > would relicense their products to the GPL if it were Zope's native > license. While other products would suddently become license-incompatible. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
I personally do not have a problem with the Zope license. However, I do use a lot of GPLed software and appreciate it. I also am appreciative of the ability to use Zope and to take advantage of the wonderful work that DC has produced. When the original debate occurred I was in support of DC maintaining some type of button crediting DC. DC has provided us with an incredible tool and has provided the community with tools in which to have a community and contribute toward Zope. Whatever license is chosen I would like to see it be one which protects everybody, especially DC. About a year or two ago Lutris, the people who do Enhydra, were debating about how to license their product XMLC. After researching the idea they decided, with the communities support, to adopt the GPL. Their primary reason was to prevent a bigger fish (with $$$) from capitalizing on their work and possibly inhibiting their ability to compete. The GPL would protect DC from predatory competitors. It would also allow for Zope's adoption in certain environments. I also believe some people would relicense their products to the GPL if it were Zope's native license. The source code maintains DC's intellectual credit and investment in Zope. Zope.org could also possibly provide a higher profile for DC without necessarily being "obnoxious" or being overtly/overly possessive. I've made some statements about how the GPL can help DC and the community. What I don't see is if or what negatives would come into play with such a change. Does anybody see any problems? Does anyone at DC including Hadar and their new VC friends? Jimmie Houchin Paul Everitt wrote: > > Some quick points on this. > > First, feel free to talk on this list about ways that Zope > developers can license their stuff. It's a constructive > discussion, and since I'm not a Zope developer, I can ignore > it. :^) > > Second, regarding the licensing of Zope itself, ChrisP is > right that I'm the guy on that. Or more specifically, Hadar > Pedhazur (our board chairman) and I run the zope-license > email alias. He and I had previously decided that, after > the round closed, we'd take a fresh look at our licensing > strategy. > > Basically, we'd like to get out of the business of having > our own license, and we're open to the idea of a license > that is more GPL-friendly, in the spirit of Apache, Python, > etc. > > Thus, continue discussing what you need to do your jobs and > give us some time to hash out a proposal. Thanks! > > --Paul > > On 14 Nov 2000 09:29:11 -0800 > Simon Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Juan, thanks for shining some light towards this murky > > area. Maybe > > ZWiki and other zope products need to be LGPL or > > dual-licensed, maybe > > the zope license can use some refinement. I for one won't > > know without > > seeing some enlightened discussion of the issue. > > > > This stuff is unsexy but important. > > > > Best regards, > > -Simon ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
Some quick points on this. First, feel free to talk on this list about ways that Zope developers can license their stuff. It's a constructive discussion, and since I'm not a Zope developer, I can ignore it. :^) Second, regarding the licensing of Zope itself, ChrisP is right that I'm the guy on that. Or more specifically, Hadar Pedhazur (our board chairman) and I run the zope-license email alias. He and I had previously decided that, after the round closed, we'd take a fresh look at our licensing strategy. Basically, we'd like to get out of the business of having our own license, and we're open to the idea of a license that is more GPL-friendly, in the spirit of Apache, Python, etc. Thus, continue discussing what you need to do your jobs and give us some time to hash out a proposal. Thanks! --Paul On 14 Nov 2000 09:29:11 -0800 Simon Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Juan, thanks for shining some light towards this murky > area. Maybe > ZWiki and other zope products need to be LGPL or > dual-licensed, maybe > the zope license can use some refinement. I for one won't > know without > seeing some enlightened discussion of the issue. > > This stuff is unsexy but important. > > Best regards, > -Simon > > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
Juan, thanks for shining some light towards this murky area. Maybe ZWiki and other zope products need to be LGPL or dual-licensed, maybe the zope license can use some refinement. I for one won't know without seeing some enlightened discussion of the issue. This stuff is unsexy but important. Best regards, -Simon ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
> > > > Regaurding licensing, twhile I wouldn't want to snuff out freedom of speech, > I would say that we have already had the "Licensing Wars" about 18 months > ago, and things are settled and non negotiable at this point. Arguing only > creates tension in the community, which does more damage than good. If > people choose not to use Zope because it doesn't have a GPL-style license, > that is their freedom and we are sorry to see them leave the community, but > it is impossible to please all of the people all of the time, and the ZPL > pleases most of the people most of the time---including our investors. > > No speaking for Digital Creations! ;-) > > Chris > > I didn't know it had already been discussed, I wasn't here 18 months ago, so that's all, thanks for your patience. regards, jdavid ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
> this is not about religion and a flame war is the last thing I want > > I only wanted to let you know about these facts, and yes there're > projects that have been hurt by "license issues", for example KDE. Regaurding licensing, twhile I wouldn't want to snuff out freedom of speech, I would say that we have already had the "Licensing Wars" about 18 months ago, and things are settled and non negotiable at this point. Arguing only creates tension in the community, which does more damage than good. If people choose not to use Zope because it doesn't have a GPL-style license, that is their freedom and we are sorry to see them leave the community, but it is impossible to please all of the people all of the time, and the ZPL pleases most of the people most of the time---including our investors. No speaking for Digital Creations! ;-) Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
> > Has any open source license issue actually come to court yet? > > How many people really care about this compared to the number of people > who just want to get on, develop and use software in an open source > community fashion and don't want to get involved in religious flame > wars? > > My $0.02 > > Chris (who doesn't really bother about license issues and hasn't been > hurt by it yet...) > > this is not about religion and a flame war is the last thing I want I only wanted to let you know about these facts, and yes there're projects that have been hurt by "license issues", for example KDE. regards, jdavid (who has bet for Zope and is worried about its future) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
Juan David IbXXez Palomar wrote: > > And more, there's already zope software with the GPL license, for > example ZWiki. ZWiki is included in Debian, probably the Debian > developer that maintains the package is not aware of these license > issues. Has any open source license issue actually come to court yet? How many people really care about this compared to the number of people who just want to get on, develop and use software in an open source community fashion and don't want to get involved in religious flame wars? My $0.02 Chris (who doesn't really bother about license issues and hasn't been hurt by it yet...) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
> > Juan David IbXXez Palomar wrote: > > > > software, but I know there's people that don't use Zope because of this > > incompatibility. > > their loss... > > Chris > yes, their loss, but also our loss www.barrapunto.com is the most important weblog about free software in Spain and probably in all the spanish speaking countries, there are more than 300.000.000 people that speaks spanish in the world. They considered the possibility to use Squishdot but finally they choosed SlashCode, the problem with the license was one of the reasons to not use Zope and Squishdot. It's not only about the publicity they could give to Zope, they are also good developers we have lost. Probably there's more people in a similar situation. And more, there's already zope software with the GPL license, for example ZWiki. ZWiki is included in Debian, probably the Debian developer that maintains the package is not aware of these license issues. regards, jdavid ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
Juan David IbXXez Palomar wrote: > > software, but I know there's people that don't use Zope because of this > incompatibility. their loss... Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
> > The FSF page says this in regards to the ZPL: > > [snip] > > We urge you not to use the license of Zope for software you write. > However, > > there is no reason to avoid running programs that have been released under > > this license, such as Zope. > > So what is the issue you are raising? Any software you write on or for Zope > can be licensed in any manner you choose. Stallman et al may not "approve" > of the ZPL mostly I think because it has more in common with the BSD license > than the GPL, in that binary distribution of Zope is allowed without the > source code. > > As Lalo Martins has pointed out the problem is with the fourth clause of the ZPL, which rms calls "the obnoxious advertising clause". That clause makes the ZPL GPL-Incompatible, it's illegal to distribute GPL code together with GPL-Incompatible code, that's what stopped Debian to distribute KDE. Because of this I've decided to use LGPL instead of GPL for my zope software, but I know there's people that don't use Zope because of this incompatibility. regards, jdavid ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] License issues
The FSF page says this in regards to the ZPL: [snip] > We urge you not to use the license of Zope for software you write. However, > there is no reason to avoid running programs that have been released under > this license, such as Zope. So what is the issue you are raising? Any software you write on or for Zope can be licensed in any manner you choose. Stallman et al may not "approve" of the ZPL mostly I think because it has more in common with the BSD license than the GPL, in that binary distribution of Zope is allowed without the source code. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] License issues
On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 06:40:31PM +0100, Juan David Ibáñez Palomar wrote: > > has come to my ears that there's people who doesn't use Zope because > its license is GPL-incompatible, more info here: > > http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/license-list.html#GPLIncompatibleLicenses They say it's an instance of "the obnoxious advertising clause". I tend to agree, this clause should be removed. All my non-Zope software is GPLed, all my Zope software has a very permissive X11-like license without the obnoxious adv. clause. []s, |alo + -- Hack and Roll ( http://www.hackandroll.org ) News for, uh, whatever it is that we are. http://zope.gf.com.br/lalo mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgp key: http://zope.gf.com.br/lalo/pessoal/pgp Brazil of Darkness (RPG)--- http://zope.gf.com.br/BroDar ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
