[Zope-dev] Why are ZClasses Dead
I keep getting these negative email messages. Here is the most recent example. I think you should stop dreaming and face the reality. There is almost nobody interested of the developer community in ZClasses.. I have no idea what your goal is with your ongoing ZClasses postings..you're on siding and there is no way back. My goal is to deliver maintain and expand the software my business needs to run. In particular I am looking for a very very fast development environment, so whatever changes a client needs, I can make right away. So I literally do not understand why people think ZClasses are dead. Let me go through the possible reasons. The last one is the real reason I think. 1. There is no demand for a through the web development environment that works. I just don't believe that. 2. ZClasses have the following bug. That sounds better. That bug needs to get fixed. I have yet to be hurt by a ZClass bug. Although there are some features I now want. 3. There is no one to maintain ZClasses Again not true, I need to do it for my own interests. I am at the point where I want to upgrade ZClasses. 4. ZClasses is a single user development environment. That is right, and I am a single user developer. Part time at that, I recruit the rest of the time. And I am looking for some good python developers if you are interested. The only reason I can do both jobs is that ZClasses allow me to develop my applications very fast. 5. You have to do everything in Python Classes on the file system. That is the right way to do things. Dogma has its place, but I have long since left organized religion. OUCH! 6. We are moving ZClasses out of the core. Makes sense to me. AND HERE IS THE REAL ISSUE I THINK 7. Because of the way Zope is written, you just cannot do ZClasses right. You would have to change zope, and break lots of things. I think that is the core reason that some people say ZClasses are dead. I am just starting to understand it. I have been digging into the core of Zope. I keep excavating lower than I have ever excavated before. I would like to make a tree of classes, just like in the smalltalk browsers. Zope Products manager or whatever it is called does not like that. I would like a ZClass to have a subobject for every instance variable, and for that instance variable to say which role can read, and write it, independent of where you are in the ZODB tree. Not quite how Zope permissions work. So I think the structure of Zope prevents ZClasses from working correctly. Which is why ZClasses needs to die. Is that correct? Because to change the core of Zope is way too heretical. Better for ZClasses to die, than to change the core of Zope 2. Anyhow I would be grateful if any of the ZClasses-are-dead community would be more specific. Which reason makes you think that ZClasses are dead? Does anyone out there agree with my analysis? Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Why are ZClasses Dead
--On 18. April 2007 16:31:29 -0700 Christopher Lozinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3. There is no one to maintain ZClasses Again not true, I need to do it for my own interests. I am at the point where I want to upgrade ZClasses You're telling us that for years...submit code, human resources or money in order to keep ZClasses alive. You may have a legitimate in ZClasses just because of your business needs are as they are. Also as Martin Aspeli pointed out there might be some need in the Zope world for *something* ZClass-like. In the current Zope world we have better alternatives to get easy things implemented more easily - see GROK which is a really good example how to turn the Zope 3 into an easy-to-use system! Once again: you have a vision...that's good. However most of us don't share your vision when it comes to the implementation detail called ZClasses. If you want something better it is up to you to get ZClassesNG or whatever it would be called started. However the current ZClasses implementation isn't suitable for bigger projects as indicated multiple times. I am not negative because you talk about ZClasses but about that you're talking (and complaining) about ZClasses and their state since years without contributing anything to ZClasses. This makes you just implausible to me. Andreas pgpteT2dBcNJE.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Why are ZClasses Dead
--On 18. April 2007 16:31:29 -0700 Christopher Lozinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AND HERE IS THE REAL ISSUE I THINK 7. Because of the way Zope is written, you just cannot do ZClasses right. You would have to change zope, and break lots of things. I think that is the core reason that some people say ZClasses are dead. I am just starting to understand it. I have been digging into the core of Zope. I keep excavating lower than I have ever excavated before. I would like to make a tree of classes, just like in the smalltalk browsers. Zope Products manager or whatever it is called does not like that. I would like a ZClass to have a subobject for every instance variable, and for that instance variable to say which role can read, and write it, independent of where you are in the ZODB tree. Not quite how Zope permissions work. So I think the structure of Zope prevents ZClasses from working correctly. Which is why ZClasses needs to die. Is that correct? Because to change the core of Zope is way too heretical. Better for ZClasses to die, than to change the core of Zope 2. Why should be change the core of Zope 2 just to making ZClasses work better with *the risk* to break Zope 2 backward-compatibility? Backward-compatibility is nowadays the *most important* point when performing changes in the Zope 2 core. Just for this reason: forget it Better go with Zope 3 which is definitely more flexible when it comes to configuration and composition of components. Since you're on the siding with your personal implementations it does not mean that we have to change the core (just because you need it). Patches, improvements etc. that improve the ZClasses situation and that are compatible with older versions are of course always highly appreciated. But please: come up with *something*...don't except that the solution for your particular problems falls from the sky (or comes from one of the Zope 2 core developers)...it's time for personal efforts. Andreas pgpcO7pKL6f1t.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
