Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
On Thursday, Oct 3, 2002, at 07:14 Europe/Paris, Andy McKay wrote: I smell commecial interest here. I smell people trying to make that one killer project hoping to make it big, instead of centering around the one vehicle that will help make a bunch of projects big someday. I won't deny it. I believe I can sell Plone and I'm not sure I can sell Zope as easily. Its a simple fact that I have to sell what the clients want: if I spend all my time concetrating on Zope innards, I doubt I'll be able to pay the mortgage. In the last 3 months 75% of my clients have come to me for Plone, in one case I steered them to a solution in Zope because I felt it was a more appropriate solution. I agree with Andy. Zope is a tool. Things like Silva and Plone are products. The purpose of Zope is to allow people to build things like Silva or Plone, or things quite different (perhaps custom to their own needs) quickly. And frankly, tools don't sell themselves. People want to see glitz. You could argue that Zope should be the project/brand with the glitz. But you're now limiting people's choices, because you're turning Zope into a product rather than a tool. Back to the X11/KDE argument. Ever looked at an X11 server running w/out a window manager? That's Zope. But it's wrong to fix the problem by eliminating X11 and merging it with KDE, because then the Gnome (and windowmaker, and sawfish, and...) people would be unhappy. Layers provide choice. Sure, they also provide a bit of confusion, but this cost is far outweighed by the benefits. Especially in open source, where people participate because they want to participate, not because they have no other choice. --Paul ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
On Thursday, Oct 3, 2002, at 10:51 Europe/Paris, James Johnson wrote: Please don't get me wrong, products like squishdot, CMFZen, and others have steered me towards Zope. They are fine examples of the things that make Zope appealing. But if you really think about what I'm saying you might understand my meaning. Zope--is to MTV and Plone -- is to VH1. Squishdot-- is to CMT. The funny part of your analogy: MTV is the creator and owner of VH1. Now why do you suppose they did that? :^) --Paul ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
Hi Ropas-Zopas, Just my 2 cents. I like plone and everything, but should'nt even the plone developers be working on improving and making ZPT faster? Seems to me in their rush to make this Plone product, they say they will make it compatible and faster, but I'm appalled, Yes I said it :-) Appalled at the way things are moving ahead with plone when ZPT is still in its infant stage. To sum it up Plone/CMF has got me hesitant on building with Zope because of the speed issues with ZPT. Sure I can use DTML, but every new cool thing seems to be based on ZPT. And with Zope3 on slated for eventual release, I feel for the community because of the other product diverions ZC can't even speculate a release date for it. Please understand that I'm not trying to complain in so much as I'm trying get and keep the community on a team/group track. I think if we watch what happens with Andy McKay and his efforts with Plone, we may learn a lot. Thanks for your time reading this. Peace, -- James I am a Washington State Citizen. Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
Hi James. Firstly lets address your subject. ZopeZen.org is slower. Why is that? - There is a lot more work being done to render a page in Plone - There is less caching being done, I havent optimized it as much as the old site was - The BSD memory leak in Python 2.1.3 is not helping - More html, javascript and css is being used You'll note I havent related to ZPT. It may or may not be slower, off the bat it appears to be slower, but I do not believe it is the only cause of the problem. It is a complex system and to compare the old site to the new one is rather like comparing apples and oranges. From raw logs posted a while I noticed a drop in performance using ZPT. But at the time you will note I pointed out that this could have been due to several things. Just my 2 cents. I like plone and everything, but should'nt even the plone developers be working on improving and making ZPT faster? So your suggestion is instead of not using Plone and ZPT in the real world to see how they perform, I should just concentrate on working on ZPT? Thank you for the compliment, its nice to hear you imply that I am capable of improving code that Guido and others has worked on. I know enough C to know Im not an expert yet, and that is will dramatically help ZPT. I would like to add that in open source projects there is a need for contributors at every level. People work on things that interest them, wish to gain knowledge in or whatever personal reason they have. I don't know much about the innards of C and Python so leave that to the experts whilst trying to gain knowledge. Some of the Plone team are excellent at CSS and Im lucky enough to be working with some people who are keen on writing documentation. In fact I'll wager the people who work on UI, documentation, testing are just as important as the people who write the excellent code. Successful projects need a diverse group of people, one I think we have. The Plone project brings people to Zope, it puts Plone in front of users. In the end that means improvements all down the line back to Zope. -- Andy McKay www.agmweb.ca ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
Thanks for you kind explanation. I may have been premature in my assessment the new Zopezen.org. Well the proof is the in the pudding, give me a bit of time and we'll see. But with some good people switching channels, will Zope still end up a major player in the market? Unfortunately from my forays into the non-Zope (or Plone) into the CMS market I dont think Zope is anywhere near a major player. I just don't understand why working on Plone is considered switching channels. When I developed the CMFZen skin was that switching channels? Is Squishdot? Whenever I speak to anyone about Plone I mention Zope in the first sentence. It will be even longer before there are decent instructions on how to get a binary build of the core Zope on windows ;-) I know how to do this now, its actually quite simple. The burden is now on me to write something up :( Btw how many parts are you going to have to publish for us to understand Plone? Probably less, since I believe ZopeZen is now simpler, there is about 50% less code. However that could be me understanding CMF and Zope more. And just as much as the other commercial/open-source projects sought to bring users to Zope, those projects are long gone. ie world pilot, spoke.net, metapublisher, etc. Perhaps, but how will you know until you try? There's more than one reason a project goes under and in some ways Plone is quite different. I smell commecial interest here. I smell people trying to make that one killer project hoping to make it big, instead of centering around the one vehicle that will help make a bunch of projects big someday. I won't deny it. I believe I can sell Plone and I'm not sure I can sell Zope as easily. Its a simple fact that I have to sell what the clients want: if I spend all my time concetrating on Zope innards, I doubt I'll be able to pay the mortgage. In the last 3 months 75% of my clients have come to me for Plone, in one case I steered them to a solution in Zope because I felt it was a more appropriate solution. -- Andy McKay www.agmweb.ca ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
