[Zope-dev] Re: AW: AW: [Zope3-dev] I'd lobe to merge the zope3-dev and zope-dev lists
Martijn Faassen wrote: Zope 3 is a bunch of technologies for building (web) applications in the form of an integrate set of Python libraries. Let's call those the Zope Libraries. Because by now we have far more than just the ones that came from exploding Zope 3 (e.g. all the ones from the 'z3c' namespace). There are different web application frameworks that make use of these Zope 3 technologies: * Zope 2 * the Zope 3 web application server (which needs another name in my opinion, as it's too confusing with Zope 3 the set of libraries) Why not calling it by the name of the *single* package that implements it, zope.app.publication. That's where everything that makes Zope 3 is implemented: - traversal semantics, such as the look up of views - security (by applying security proxies) - transaction integration * Grok * potentially others The Zope project aims to develop the underlying technologies and the web application servers on top of it. When you get Zope you get it in one of the above web application framework flavors. It's hardly a perfect story. To simply matters for myself, I'm focusing on marketing Grok, and in strong association with this, the Zope 3 technologies that Grok would be nothing without. The advantage of calling it something else than Zope is that you don't get caught up in the identity crisis so much. -- http://worldcookery.com -- Professional Zope documentation and training ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: AW: AW: [Zope3-dev] I'd lobe to merge the zope3-dev and zope-dev lists
Stephan Richter wrote: On Saturday 06 October 2007 13:14, Andreas Jung wrote: You are using 7 times the term Zope2 and 9 times Zope 3 and also Plone 3.0 in this small text. Can you try to describe this without 2 or 3 in Zope *? I guess not, right? s/Zope 2/Zope application server s/Zope 3/Zope components I personally feel quiet offended to see Zope 3 degraded to a set of components. Zope 3 in itself is also an application server; Zope 2, on the other hand, is an application. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you really saying Zope 2 isn't an application server? I really don't care about how it is called, but I'm sure we need some naming convention and since we have one, I don't see any reason to change this. As said: there was a big discussion on the terms Zope 2 and Zope 3 during the last DZUG conference. Bringing it to the point: the terms zope 2 and zope 3 should die. There's only 'Zope'. I have not been involved in this discussion. Having discussions like this during a conference is good as a starting point, but should never be seen as a canonical decision. That's a good point. No final decisions were indeed reached. Although you are a Zope component-only developer you can not ignore the dependent applications and framework. So you are saying I have to change Zope 3's story to cope with Zope 2's identity crisis? Honestly, degrading Zope 3 to a set of libraries and components is marketing poisoning for people deploying pure Zope 3 applications. I consider Zope 3 to have far more of an identity crisis than Zope 2 has currently. People know what to expect when they download and install Zope 2. With Zope 3, currently it's rather confused. Anyway, you misunderstood what Andreas meant when he said Zope has an identity crisis. *Zope* has an identity crisis. What is Zope? Can you give an answer? Is it Zope 2 or Zope 3? Is it an application or a framework or a set of libraries? We can't even say it properly for Zope 3: is Zope 3 a set of libraries or a framework or a web application server? We have an identity crisis. I'd say; Zope 3 is a bunch of technologies for building (web) applications in the form of an integrate set of Python libraries. There are different web application frameworks that make use of these Zope 3 technologies: * Zope 2 * the Zope 3 web application server (which needs another name in my opinion, as it's too confusing with Zope 3 the set of libraries) * Grok * potentially others The Zope project aims to develop the underlying technologies and the web application servers on top of it. When you get Zope you get it in one of the above web application framework flavors. It's hardly a perfect story. To simply matters for myself, I'm focusing on marketing Grok, and in strong association with this, the Zope 3 technologies that Grok would be nothing without. The advantage of calling it something else than Zope is that you don't get caught up in the identity crisis so much. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: AW: AW: [Zope3-dev] I'd lobe to merge the zope3-dev and zope-dev lists
Stephan Richter wrote: On Saturday 06 October 2007 13:14, Andreas Jung wrote: You are using 7 times the term Zope2 and 9 times Zope 3 and also Plone 3.0 in this small text. Can you try to describe this without 2 or 3 in Zope *? I guess not, right? s/Zope 2/Zope application server s/Zope 3/Zope components I personally feel quiet offended to see Zope 3 degraded to a set of components. Zope 3 in itself is also an application server; Zope 2, on the other hand, is an application. You have a point here. Zope 3 is an application server. Zope 2 is an application/application server. Grok is a self-proclaimed web framework. They all share common components which I'd like to call the Zope Libraries (zope.*). Zope is a diverse community, but there's unity in the libraries. This is what Zope 3 is mostly about. The Zope 3 app server is this one special configuration where zope.app.publication and zope.app.securitypolicy is used. There are, in fact, many other possible uses of those libraries without having to call it Zope 3. zope3-dev is really about discussing those libraries. Sometimes we also talk about the app server, but that happens rarely if you think about it. I really don't care about how it is called, but I'm sure we need some naming convention and since we have one, I don't see any reason to change this. As said: there was a big discussion on the terms Zope 2 and Zope 3 during the last DZUG conference. Bringing it to the point: the terms zope 2 and zope 3 should die. There's only 'Zope'. I have not been involved in this discussion. Having discussions like this during a conference is good as a starting point, but should never be seen as a canonical decision. I don't think there's been a canonical decision. But I think it's one of the challenges that the ZF board is supposed to address. This is, after all, what the community governance is for. Although you are a Zope component-only developer you can not ignore the dependent applications and framework. So you are saying I have to change Zope 3's story to cope with Zope 2's identity crisis? Honestly, degrading Zope 3 to a set of libraries and components is marketing poisoning for people deploying pure Zope 3 applications. Nobody's trying to do that. We didn't explode Zope 3 because Zope 2 could cope better with it that way. It happened out of other reasons. You know that. You can't ignore the fact that the Zope Libraries are used elsewhere. That doesn't mean I'm not encouraging people to use Zope3-the-app server. We should just think about what Zope3-the-app server really is. It's just a special configuration of those libraries. And it's just one possible one (Grok is another possible one, for example). I think we should give both of those as well as Zope 2 an adequate place in Zope's story. Ignoring that all three exist and thinking they are separate from each other is wishful thinking. -- http://worldcookery.com -- Professional Zope documentation and training ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
