Stephan Richter wrote:
On Saturday 06 October 2007 13:14, Andreas Jung wrote:
You are using 7 times the term "Zope2" and 9 times "Zope 3"
and also "Plone 3.0" in this small text. Can you try to describe
this without "2 or 3" in "Zope *"? I guess not, right?
s/Zope 2/Zope application server
s/Zope 3/Zope components


I personally feel quiet offended to see Zope 3 degraded to a set of components. Zope 3 in itself is also an application server; Zope 2, on the other hand, is an application.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you really saying Zope 2 isn't an application server?

I really don't care about how it is called, but I'm sure we
need some naming convention and since we have one, I don't see
any reason to change this.
As said: there was a big discussion on the terms "Zope 2" and
"Zope 3" during the last DZUG conference. Bringing it to the point:
the terms "zope 2" and "zope 3" should die. There's only 'Zope'.

I have not been involved in this discussion. Having discussions like this during a conference is good as a starting point, but should never be seen as a canonical decision.

That's a good point. No final decisions were indeed reached.

Although you are a Zope component-only  developer
you can not ignore the dependent applications and framework.

So you are saying I have to change Zope 3's story to cope with Zope 2's identity crisis? Honestly, degrading Zope 3 to a set of libraries and components is marketing poisoning for people deploying pure Zope 3 applications.

I consider Zope 3 to have far more of an identity crisis than Zope 2 has currently. People know what to expect when they download and install Zope 2. With Zope 3, currently it's rather confused.

Anyway, you misunderstood what Andreas meant when he said Zope has an identity crisis. *Zope* has an identity crisis. What is Zope? Can you give an answer? Is it Zope 2 or Zope 3? Is it an application or a framework or a set of libraries? We can't even say it properly for Zope 3: is Zope 3 a set of libraries or a framework or a web application server? We have an identity crisis.

I'd say;

Zope 3 is a bunch of technologies for building (web) applications in the form of an integrate set of Python libraries.

There are different web application frameworks that make use of these Zope 3 technologies:

* Zope 2

* the Zope 3 web application server (which needs another name in my opinion, as it's too confusing with "Zope 3 the set of libraries")

* Grok

* potentially others

The Zope project aims to develop the underlying technologies and the web application servers on top of it. When you get "Zope" you get it in one of the above web application framework flavors.

It's hardly a perfect story. To simply matters for myself, I'm focusing on marketing Grok, and in strong association with this, the Zope 3 technologies that Grok would be nothing without. The advantage of calling it something else than "Zope" is that you don't get caught up in the identity crisis so much.

Regards,

Martijn

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