Re: [Zope-dev] Re: ZClasses useful! [Was: ZMI / JavaScript brainstorm]
Maybe a little Perl psychology might help us here, i.e. There is more than one way to do it - Some are faster, some more feature rich, and (in this case) some are TTW codeable. The only ones that are actually _wrong_ are the ones that don't work at all. ZClasses are one of the two things that bring Zope up to and above the level of the competition (In this case Coldfusion) IMHO - TTW coding, including writing products TTW, and DTML which is far more powerful and focused than the competitions offering. I think that blindly disposing of both, just because a newer idea has come along is just that - blind. So what if ZPT is more (choose your comparison here) than DTML? DTML is far easier to learn, far easier to read, far easier to write, and much much easier to explain to newbies. It has always been clear that ZClasses are the poor relation of Python products, but even that does not earn ZClasses a death warant (IMHO) - Have you never needed a quick fix product that needs writing in a few minutes and in a week will no longer be needed? I know I have - Many MANY times! Just my $0.02 Adrian... - Original Message - From: Andy McKay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martijn Jacobs [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:52 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Re: ZClasses useful! [Was: ZMI / JavaScript brainstorm] What's your efford on this task? If people like to use them, let them! It's not up to you to decide for THEM what's best or not. The choice for YOURSELF not to use them is just as fair as other peoples choices. Sure but many people ask more experienced developers for advice. I agree saying ZClasses suck totally is unhelpful. For people who dont know coding or want to do quick prototyping they have a place. However if someone asks me how to do a product, I normally give them the choice: use ZClasses but I would strongly recommend using a Product etc (and then be ready with the reasons why which is the next question). Unfortunately people deciding the right and wrong ways for other people to code is a trait sometimes found in Python / Zope world. But dont get me started on that :) -- Andy McKay ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: ZClasses useful! [Was: ZMI / JavaScript brainstorm]
Stefan H. Holek wrote: At 09.04.2002 10:46 +0100, Chris Withers wrote: ZClasses are a waste of time, even more so than DTML. Chris, please stop that dissing of ZClasses. They are *very* useful indeed! If you enjoy pain and suffering and no upgrade path. I will not stop dissing them until people stop using them and then complaining when they break, don't do what they want or behave unexpectedly. No, not so much for the seasoned Python/Zope coder, but for the content manager (remember, Zope is a CMS after all!). Use the Types Tool in the CMF, its a lot closer to what ZClasses wanted to be. I sure hope this part of Zope's audience is not forgotten in Zope3. I have always considered it a strength of Zope to allow unskilled users to create and deploy dynamic websites. Yup, I have the same fear for Zope 3, but trying to stand up for one of the most difficult to learn and use pieces in the whole Zope architecture is not the way to go about it... We can fight this out at the BBQ if you like ;-) ...you're buying the beers though. Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: ZClasses useful! [Was: ZMI / JavaScript brainstorm]
I will not stop dissing them until people stop using them and then complaining when they break, don't do what they want or behave unexpectedly. What's your efford on this task? If people like to use them, let them! It's not up to you to decide for THEM what's best or not. The choice for YOURSELF not to use them is just as fair as other peoples choices. martijn. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: ZClasses useful! [Was: ZMI / JavaScript brainstorm]
On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Martijn Jacobs wrote: I will not stop dissing them until people stop using them and then complaining when they break, don't do what they want or behave unexpectedly. What's your efford on this task? If people like to use them, let them! It's not up to you to decide for THEM what's best or not. The choice for YOURSELF not to use them is just as fair as other peoples choices. Actually, we find on #zope-dev that if we steer newbies away from zclasses and toward Products to begin with, they thank us later, and it reduces our support burden. The same can be said for this list. Chris does tend to be a little vociferous about it grin. We aren't generally dealing with content devloper types in either place. Learning ZClasses (because that's what was documented in the manual at the time) rather than going straight to python products was the *worst* mistake I made in starting to use Zope, myself. It probably set me back six to nine months. --RDM ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: ZClasses useful! [Was: ZMI / JavaScript brainstorm]
What's your efford on this task? If people like to use them, let them! It's not up to you to decide for THEM what's best or not. The choice for YOURSELF not to use them is just as fair as other peoples choices. Sure but many people ask more experienced developers for advice. I agree saying ZClasses suck totally is unhelpful. For people who dont know coding or want to do quick prototyping they have a place. However if someone asks me how to do a product, I normally give them the choice: use ZClasses but I would strongly recommend using a Product etc (and then be ready with the reasons why which is the next question). Unfortunately people deciding the right and wrong ways for other people to code is a trait sometimes found in Python / Zope world. But dont get me started on that :) -- Andy McKay ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
